Stats for 1989 FO Final (Chang-Edberg)

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Moose Malloy, Dec 14, 2008.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Chang d Edberg 6-1, 3-6, 4-6, 6-4, 6-2

    My stats:

    Both players had 57 non service winners.

    Edberg: 13 fh, 11 bh, 15 fhv, 14 bhv, 4 ov
    Chang: 18 fh, 21 bh, 7 fhv, 3 bhv, 8 ov

    winners by set:

    Edberg - 7, 11, 11, 13, 15
    Chang - 14, 12, 8, 15, 8

    serve stats by set:

    Edberg
    9 of 19 (47%)
    19 of 28 (68%)
    19 of 28 (68%)
    16 of 30 (53%)
    16 of 30 (53%)

    79 of 135 (59%) for the match

    Chang
    23 of 30 (77%)
    20 of 22 (91%)
    25 of 33 (76%)
    36 of 47 (77%)
    38 of 42 (90%)

    142 of 174 (82%) for the match

    Edberg had 6 aces, 4 doubles
    Chang had 1 ace(it was hit on the 1st point of the match), 2 doubles

    Edberg had 23 unreturned serves, one I judged a service winner
    Chang had 13 unreturned serves, none I judged a service winner

    Edberg had 10 passing shot winners(8 fh, 2 bh)
    Chang had 29 passing shot winners(13 fh, 16 bh)

    Edberg was 6 of 25 on break points(2 of 17 in the last 2 sets)
    Chang was 9 of 14

    Stats from NBC:

    Net approaches by set(1st 3 sets only)
    Edberg - 18, 30, 36
    Chang - 14, 6, 6

    at 4-1 in the 5th, they said Edberg had been in 148 times in the match, Chang 48. I counted the rest of the way and came up with 8 more approaches for Edberg, 1 for Chang.

    The gave Chang 27 unforced errors for the match, Edberg 68.

    Time of match was 3 hrs, 41 mins

    Chang was ranked 19(but seeded 15) at this event.

    here is what SI wrote:

     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
    #1
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    The Washington Post:

    The Worcester Telegram Gazette, on the other hand, has Edberg 6-25 in break points.

    Moose, your service percentage for Edberg is 11 points higher than the Post, but your number of total serves for Edberg, by set, actually add up to 135. That would bring it down 11 points.
     
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  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    The Post, however, got its break points wrong quite badly for Chang, giving him only one more break than Edberg. But he won 6 more games than Edberg, which means 3 more breaks, exactly what you have.

    And your number of break points faced by Chang agree with the Gazette instead of the Post so it looks like they got that number wrong too.
     
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  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    With Chang serving 39 more times than Edberg, I think that this is the biggest discrepancy in all the matches for which we've counted total number of serves.

    I have no way of systematically searching all our matches for it; I've just looked through our stats and I think it's probably the highest.

    I'm not sure anymore, though, that a player's total serves is such a revealing stat, in itself. It's still an important principle whether someone is holding serve easier than his opponent -- announcers still mention it all the time during a match -- but we keep finding winners who have to serve more times than the loser. You probably remember, with Borg and McEnroe the winner almost always had to serve more than the loser.

    With Sampras and Agassi that was not the case.

    Maybe what really matters more is if someone doesn't merely serve more times, but actually has to face more break points -- and that's the case with Chang. Edberg couldn't convert them.

    I noticed that the ATP has a discrepancy of 44 points between Johansson and Roddick in the 2004 USO. Johansson served 162 points, Roddick 118 -- according to the ATP -- but Johansson won the match.

    I've been thinking about doing that match, just for the service stats (and the total points: the ATP has Roddick winning 24 more points overall).
     
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  5. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    For Courier-Agassi, 7-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 in the fourth round, the Washington Post:

     
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  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I remember watching that match and I thought that Chang was going to win a few more majors in his career but despite reaching a few finals in majors, he never won a major again. He did have an excellent career however.
     
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  7. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Stats for Chang-Lendl

    Chang d. Lendl, 4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 6-3

    Statistically what I find most interesting is the H2H. This was their first meeting. Lendl ended up winning all 5 of their best-two-of-three matches, all in straight sets. Chang won both of their best-three-of-five matches, each of them after nearly being swept in straights (1989 RG, 1991 GS Cup).

    That's according to their ATP page, anyway.


    Washington Post and Los Angeles Times:

    ESPN gave Lendl a lot more unforced errors (83 as of 4-3 in the final set). I don't know why there's a discrepancy, and such a large one.

    As of 5-2 in the fourth, Lendl had 73 unforced errors, Chang 48.

    Earlier, Barry Tompkins said that Lendl was up to 63 ue's, and he broke them down as 43 FH, 20 BH. He didn't make any mention of Lendl's df's, so it's unclear whether ESPN was including df's in their UE totals.

    In the 1990s on Google News, I've turned up a lot of phrases such "___ unforced errors, including ___ double-faults." I've hardly seen any such phrases in articles from the 80s. The earliest I've found so far is from July 1987, at the U.S. Clay-Court Championships, from the Chicago Tribune:

     
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  8. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    As far as the Johansson/Roddick match it wouldn't really surprise me that Johansson had more points on his serve, and that Roddick won more poins overall. Many recall Johansson blasting aces (but Roddick out aced him if I remember correctly) and drilling forehands, but Andy had numerous break chances that he never converted. I don't think he converted one until the 3rd set. I don't how big the discrepancies would be, but Rodick winning more points overall, and more points played on Jahoansson;s serve wouldnt surprise me.
     
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  9. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I never did my own count on that match because I found the USo_Org stats at webarchive: http://web.archive.org/web/20040913010108/www.usopen.org/en_US/scores/stats/day17/1504ms.html. The stats are identical to what the ATP has, so I would think the numbers are good.
     
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  10. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Have you ever questioned why the ATP site doesn't have winners/unforced errors with their stat counts?? Anyway thanks for that (the Roddick/Johansson stats). Would you be able to find anything on Federer's Aus Open F (vs Baghdatis and Gonzalez)??
     
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  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    ^^^At webarchive's home page you can pull up past years of the AO's website.

    That's a good question.
     
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  12. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Here are stats I took on the Edberg-Becker semi(missing the 2nd game of the 3rd set, an Edberg service game in which he held)

    Edberg d Becker 6-3, 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 6-2

    Edberg
    110-151 (73%)
    72-110 (65% 1st pts won)
    19-41 (46% 2nd serve pts won)
    3 aces, 5 df's
    drew 30 return errors(7 on 2nd serve)

    Becker
    96-172 (56%)
    63-96 (66% 1st serve pts won)
    34-76 (48% 2nd serve pts won)
    10 aces, 3 df's
    drew 23 return errors(5 on 2nd serve)

    Edberg was 8-22 on break points(Becker made 1st serves on 11 of them)
    Becker was 6-17(Edberg made 1st serves on 10 of them)

    The 3rd set was the only set without multiple breaks

    Non service winners
    Edberg: 59 - 4 fh, 14 bh, 19 fhv, 13 bhv, 9 ov
    Becker: 46 - 11 fh, 13 bh, 10 fhv, 8 bhv, 4 ov

    Winners by set
    Edberg - 13, 13, 10, 11, 12
    Becker - 6, 12, 9, 11, 8

    net pts
    Becker 43-70(61%)
    Edberg 95-147(65%)

    some stats from Espn
    unforced errors by set
    Edberg - 5, 11, 13, 16
    Becker - 7, 9, 10, 5

    Becker broke for a 1-0 lead in the 5th and had a 40-15 lead for 2-0. He made 3 straight unforced errors at that point and was eventually broken after two deuces. Made only 2 first serves out of 10 points.

    This match was very different from any of their Wimbledon matches & a lot more fun to watch, many more returns were put in play than in those matches(Edberg didn't miss a return in the 2nd set, Becker didn't miss a return in the 5th)

    Here were stats espn had on the players through their 1st five matches
    Edberg
    10 aces
    70%
    64% 1st serve pts won
    61% 2nd serve pts won
    held serve in 61 of 73 games

    Becker
    41 aces
    55%
    76% 1st serve pts won
    63% 2nd serve pts won
    held serve in 71 of 82 games
     
    #12
  13. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    here's an article I came across

    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/10/sports/chang-to-meet-edberg-in-final-of-french-open.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
    #13
  14. andreh

    andreh Professional

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    Agreed. It's very a entertaining match with a good mix of defensive and offensive tennis.
     
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  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Edberg went to net a lot more than Becker.

    To put it another way, Edberg was relying less on groundstrokes than Becker was, which was probably a good idea since Stefan had little ability to do damage with his forehand in a straight-up baseline rally.

    Becker, by a 24-22 margin, had more winners from groundstrokes than from volleys and overheads. Edberg had only 18 groundstroke winners and 41 volleys/overheads.

    Through four sets Edberg was given 45 unforced errors, Becker 31. That’s a little unexpected because Becker is regarded as the bigger risk-taker (the lower percentage player). But Edberg was the one taking more risks, each time he rushed the net.

    Edberg was the more aggressive player: he had more winners and more UE's than his opponent.
     
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  16. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    A boxscore for the Chang-Edberg final, printed in the Sun Sentinel:

    Summary of No. 15 Michael Chang`s 6-1, 3-6, 4-6, 6-4, 6-2 victory over No. 3 Stefan Edberg in the men`s final Sunday:
    Chang Edberg
    First Serve 82 58
    Double Faults 2 4
    Aces 1 6
    Points 163 146
    Deuces 28 7
    Services Lost 6 7
    Love Games 4 2
    Points on Service 103 74
    Break Points 17 26​
    Amazing how Chang fought through 28 deuces.
     
    #16
  17. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    That boxscore repeats the error in the Washington Post, crediting Chang with only 7 service breaks.
     
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  18. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Chang was a player with an incredible fighting spirit.

    I think that Edberg's quote about Chang not thinking too much is apt, and is in no way an insult. Rather Edberg just understands the feeling.

    The younger you are, the less you think and the more you just react, and this sometimes helps in a big way.

    Tennis is very instinctive. Self-doubt is not an asset during game play.
     
    #18
  19. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    It does sound amazing, but I haven't kept track of that stat to put it into perspective. I wonder what is the average amount of deuces/deuce games in a match is.
     
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