Stats for 1989 W semi (Becker-Lendl)

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by krosero, Jul 28, 2008.

  1. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Becker d. Lendl, 7-5, 6-7 (2), 2-6, 6-4, 6-3


    Per my own count:

    Becker won 177 points, Lendl 171.


    SERVICE

    Becker served at 49%, making 71 of 146 first serves.
    Lendl served at 64%, making 129 of 202 first serves.

    Becker’s service percentages by set:
    12/33 (36%)
    23/43 (53%)
    8/22 (36%)
    14/25 (56%)
    14/23 (61%)

    Lendl’s service percentages by set:
    26/39 (67%)
    42/64 (66%)
    29/39 (74%)
    17/36 (47%)
    15/24 (63%)

    Becker won 99 of 146 points on serve (or 68%). He won 60 of 71 points on first serve (84.5%) and 39 of 75 on second (52.0%).

    Lendl won 124 of 202 points on serve (or 61%). He won 93 of 129 points on first serve (72.1%) and 31 of 73 on second (42.5%).

    Becker's longest service game went only to 12 points, while Lendl won games on his serve that went to 14, 22, 12, and 16.

    Becker won 18 consecutive points on serve (11 to open the fifth set).


    Becker converted 5 of 21 break points (24%).
    Lendl converted 4 of 6 break points (67%).

    Becker made his first serve on 0 of 6 break points.
    Lendl made his first serve on 12 of 21 break points (57%).


    Becker had 17 aces and 11 double-faults.
    Lendl had 9 aces and 7 double-faults.

    Becker's aces by set: 2, 9, 1, 1, 4
    Lendl's aces by set: 2, 3, 1, 2, 1


    Becker got a return error from Lendl 44 times, of which I judged 15 as service winners.

    Lendl got a return error from Becker 54 times, of which I judged 13 as service winners.


    WINNERS

    Becker had 64 clean winners apart from service: 13 FH, 30 BH, 9 FHV, 7 BHV, 5 overheads.

    Lendl had 62 clean winners apart from service: 10 FH, 15 BH, 17 FHV, 14 BHV, 6 overheads.

    Becker's winners by set: 9, 21, 5, 16, 13
    Lendl's winners by set: 11, 20, 14, 8, 9

    Even on grass, Becker had twice as many winners from ground strokes as from volleys/overheads.

    The big shot of the match was Becker’s BH, with 30 winners.

    Becker had 22 service return winners, 17 of them off Lendl's second serve. 15 of the winning returns were BH’s. All the returns were passes, and Becker had 18 additional passing shots (15 from the BH), including 1 FH lob.

    Lendl hit 7 service return winners, 6 of them off Becker's second serve. Four of the winning returns were FH's. All of the returns were passes, and Lendl had 13 additional passing shots; nine were BH’s, including two lobs.


    ERRORS

    If I subtract the clean winners and aces from the total points won:

    Becker made 100 total errors (forced and unforced). Of those I counted 54 return errors and 11 df’s. That leaves him making 35 errors in points that had at least a successful return (ie, in rallies).

    Lendl made 96 total errors (forced and unforced). Of those I counted 44 return errors and 7 df’s. That leaves him making 45 errors in rallies.




    Per the St. Louis Dispatch, Becker had 18 aces and 21 service winners, Lendl 9 aces and 20 service winners.

    The Washington Post:
    The St. Petersburg Times (Florida):

    My own count confirms that Becker allowed 5 points in his last 7 service games.

    This source has Becker at 17 aces, not the 18 of the St. Louis-Dispatch or the 19 of the Washington Post. (I have him at 17 clean aces). All the sources have Lendl at 9 (as I do).

    continued:

    The Sunday Times (London):

     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
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  2. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Lendl was up a break in the 4th, did he have any points for 5-2 or 5-3?

    did Lendl S&V on both 1st & 2nd serves throughout?

    this is from SI:

     
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  3. heathcliff

    heathcliff Rookie

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    yes - as far as i remember lendl permanently serve-volleyed also on 2nd serve. so he did it on grass the year after
     
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  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    He got as far as a game point on his own serve for a 4-2 lead.

    Becker double-faulted on break point at 2-all, and Lendl did the same in the next game.

    Yes. And it was just like what he experienced against Cash. Coming in behind his second serve he was consistently beaten by backhand returns at his feet or beyond his reach. It cost him more than anything in the match, with 15 return winners from Becker’s backhand (12 off second serve), and many other forced errors.

    It just makes you wonder how he would have done if he’d stayed back on his second serves (like Borg), or at least on some of them. Becker could come in himself on Lendl’s second serve, or pummel it anyway, if it wasn’t placed well. But so long as Lendl placed it well, he’d either get an error from Becker or get into a rally, and from there the point was likely his. With Lendl charging in behind everything, though, Becker was just lining up the ball in his sights and ripping it.

    I didn't think the rain delay was as consequential as it had seemed when I watched it back then. Lendl had a harder time holding serve right up through the end of the second set. He took the tiebreak then, and broke Becker twice to go up 3-love in the third when the rains came. But to get that lead he had to hold in a long game, saving two break points. It was a brief time that he got on top of Becker, and when they came back Lendl took the third set anyway; it’s not as if the rain helped Becker to get a set that had been slipping away from him. It did help to calm him down, but after the rain delay there were still times that he yelled at himself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2008
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  5. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Lendl got close to winning it in four sets, but there were problems with his performance and you can see it in the stats. After four sets he had served 178 points, Becker just 123. I don't know for sure, but have we ever seen a case of the winner having to work so much harder to hold serve? Eventually all that work wears you down and you make some errors (and in Lendl's case, you start to complain openly about how hard you're working), so in a sense he was not as close to winning it as the score suggests after three and a half sets.
     
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  6. Lendl and Federer Fan

    Lendl and Federer Fan Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I always wonder about that question myself all the time. He should try it at least for 1 year. He got some s h i t advices from his staffs I guess. I even wrote Lendl a few letters about this back then. :(
     
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  7. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Here were my stats for the final:

    Becker d Edberg 6-0, 7-6(1), 6-4

    Becker was 42 of 91(46%) on first serves. In the 3rd set they said he was 48% for the tournament. I'm curious what Becker's highest 1st serve % was over a season, from many of his famous matches, it doesn't seem like he got over 50% that much(but he was 67% in his loss vs Edberg the year before, so go figure)

    Edberg was 62 of 93(67%)

    Becker had 44 winners(11 fh, 11 bh, 11 fhv, 5 bhv, 6 ov)
    Edberg had 31 (6 fh, 9 bh, 11 fhv, 4 bhv, 1 ov)

    Becker had 5 aces, 4 doubles
    Edberg had no aces, 2 doubles

    Becker had 23 unreturned serves(3 were service winners)
    Edberg had 25(2 service winners)

    Becker was 5 of 14 on bp's
    Edberg was 1 of 5

    Some NBC stats:

    after 2 sets

    Edberg
    17 winners
    11 unforced errors

    Becker
    33 winners
    3 unforced errors

    at 3-2 in the 3rd set:

    Points win on serve
    Edberg: 65% on 1st serve, 43% on 2nd
    Bedker: 80% on 1st serve, 60% on 2nd

    At the beginning of the match, Dick Enberg said that Becker had 84 aces, 56 doubles coming into the final & Edberg had 26 aces, 24 doubles.

    here were my stats on the '88 final

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=199731
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
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  8. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I know Stich served at only 46% in the '91 final, but I can't think of another player that won a Slam serving at such a low percentage.

    Did you count returns/passes?
     
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  9. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Becker had an underrated backhand cross return on grass. Tiriac always stated, that this shot helped him even more than his serving. Lendl's problem was his backhand volley. I am surprised, that he made so many in this match. Also his second serve had not enough spin, his serve from a very high toss was too straight and better equipped for hard or indoor courts.
     
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  10. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Becker had 21 passing shot winners(11 bh, 10 fh)

    Edberg had 15 (9 bh, 6 fh)

    do you know what % Stich served at for the tournament that year?
     
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  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Got nothing for the tournament, just the boxscore for the final, posted in the ATP thread.

    Thanks for these stats and the '95W.
     
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  12. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    The New York Times printed a boxscore:

    Becker Edberg
    46 1st serve pct. 68
    4 Double faults 2
    5 Aces 0
    103 Points 81
    6 Deuces 7
    1 Services lost 5
    3 Love games 4
    62 Points serving 52
     
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  13. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Great info Krosero on this match. Lendl was so close to win winning that match. There were so many tough matches at Wimbledon between Becker and his chief rivals during this time.

    I just wanted to mention something about Ion Tiriac, the eccentric genius that was a former doubles partner to Nastase, and coach of both Vilas and Becker. Do you all know that he's likely the richest guy with a deep tennis connection these days? He has become a BILLIONAIRE in Romania as a banker! He is the first billionaire in Romania.

    See this wikipedia excerpt:

    Business career

    After his retirement as a professional tennis player, Ţiriac became a businessman in Germany. In 1987, he appeared in a TV commercial for Miller Lite beer with Bob Uecker, who extols Ţiriac's supposed humourous qualities, laughing hysterically while Ţiriac sits stone-faced. [2]

    Following the collapse of communism in Romania, he started numerous businesses and investments back home. In 1990, he founded Banca Ţiriac, the first private bank in post-Communist Romania. Between that and several other enterprises (retail, insurance, auto leasing, auto dealerships, airlines, etc.), his fortune was estimated at over $900 million as of 2005[update].

    Ion Ţiriac became the first Romanian[3] to enter Forbes' List of billionaires in the 2007 Forbes rankings, placing number 840 in the world. His wealth was estimated at $1.1 billion as of 2007[update], according to the magazine.
     
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  14. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    Lendl on grass

    Ivan USED to stay back on grass quite a bit....and was losing to the likes of Mac ('83?)and Connors ('84), who were simply just more nimble and comfortable on the surface. The '84 semi between Jimmy & Ivan is an interesting one...Ivan really should've had the edge there, but Jimmy out foxed him. Would be intrigued to see some stats on these "pre S&V" matches for Ivan...

    Net, net, I don't think staying back would've helped him much.
     
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  15. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I watched the '83 match with Mac recently & Lendl was S&Ving on every 1st & 2nd serve(& having a good win % at it)

    Yet he hardly came in vs Connors in '84, I'm guessing since he wasn't under the threat of someone chip & charging on him like Mac.

    I've tried to collect as many Lendl grasscourt matches as I can over the years to see any changes he made in his game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
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  16. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    Lendl

    Clearly, my memory fails me on the '83 match; I know Mac got the better of him, but don't remember him serving and volleying then. I know he had also played Connors at Queens in the early 80's and got thrashed. But, hard to see his logic if he was S&V'ing against Mac and staying back against Jimmy. I don't quite get it...unless he felt he could keep Mac guessing? And, maybe in the case of Jimmy, he didn't want to get passed? I really thought his best shot to win was against Cash in '87, but even then, he couldn't quite nullifying Cash's hard charging game. Cash put on quite a show that year, beating Wilander, Connors and Lendl in succession.

    Ivan was plain unlucky...
     
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  17. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I'm changing my mind on this the more I see of Lendl's grasscourt matches. I saw him get burned so often against Cash and Becker by serving to the backhand and getting one difficult return after another -- esp. on second serve. But the more I see of him on grass the less I'm impressed with his defense. Everybody says he wasn't the greatest volleyer, and of course that's true; but he wasn't all that bad. And his serve was just fine. Where he seems really different from baseliners who won Wimbledon (Borg/Connors) is that he doesn't return as well, doesn't move as well; and the lack of a true bounce seems to mess with his style of playing.

    I've been watching his AO semi to Edberg, the one he lost 9-7 in the fifth in '85, and he's staying back some. He's still coming in, but when he stays back it's not as if the point is guaranteed to be his. On true surfaces he can roll those groundstrokes and swing freely -- that's his terminator mode -- but on grass he just can't get in that groove.

    And when he stayed firmly on the baseline it didn't go well for him: the loss to Connors at 84W, a straight-set loss to Wilander at 83AO. I haven't seen the Connors match, but against Wilander he looks totally confused. He can't dominate Mats from the baseline the way he could on other fast surfaces, but he's not trying to end the points at net either.

    So I think Lendl was in a pickle when it came to winning on grass. There weren't going to be any easy solutions.

    I don't think anyone was beating Cash at 87W, but earlier in the year at the AO Lendl played Cash to a draw all the way through to a third-set tiebreak. Very close match. That could have been his best chance.
     
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  18. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Krosero,

    I always got the impression with Lendl on grass that he needed a good bounce to return serve well so his backhand and his forehand suffered. His footwork on grass also wasn't that good as opposed to a Borg, Connors or McEnroe.

    You combine all of this with his average volley and despite his great serve and overall groundies and he's going to have problems with top grass court players.
     
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  19. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I don't recall this being called the longest Wimbledon semifinal in history, but apparently it held the record until today. Becker and Lendl played 4 hours 1 minute; Djokovic and Del Potro took up 4 hours 43 minutes today.

    Becker/Lendl - 348 points (all SV)
    Djokovic/Delpo - 368 points (most of them baseline rallies)
     
    #19
  20. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    some more stats on the final:

    Becker
    1st serve pts won, 33-42(78%)
    2nd serve pts won, 29-49(59%)
    made 1st serves on 1 of 5 bp's he faced

    Edberg
    1st serve pts won, 39-62(63%)
    2nd serve pts won, 13-31(42%)
    made 1st serves on 9 of 14 bp's he faced

    9 of Becker's unreturned serves were 2nd serves.
    10 of Edberg's.

    There was an interesting streak involving Edberg's serve in the 2nd set. He won 14 straight pts on serve to get to 6-5, 40-0. Then Becker won 9 straight pts on Edberg's serve to break and win the tiebreak.

    I checked to see if there were any patterns on those pts. During Edberg's 14 pt streak Becker hit 10 returns off the bh wing, 4 off the fh. During his 9 pt win streak on return he hit 7 bh's, 2 fh's.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
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  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lendl also did not find a solution to Leconte´s all round play in the 1985 4 th round.IMO, this was his last real bad match at Wimbledon since, from 1986 on, he did his best and accomplished more than he possibly expected.

    He couldn´t get by the extremely consistent S&V game of Mc Enroe,Becker or Cash.But he could get stuck until the end of the match in 1984 against old Dick Stockton and in 1986 against the boomer from Yugoslavia,Slobo Zivojinovic.He also beat usually a good S&V such as Tim Mayotte.

    I don´t think he could have got through Stich,Edberg or Sampras in case he had played them in 1991,1992 or 1993.
     
    #21
  22. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    So Becker in his last two matches faced a total of 11 break points but put in only one first serve.

    By my count, for the tiebreak in the final:

    Becker made 2 of 4 first serves and won them both.
    Edberg made 1 of 4 first serves and lost all his service points.
     
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  23. andreh

    andreh Professional

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    Interstingly, I believe Edberg also held at love in his first game in the third set. So those 9 pts Becker won against his serve was preceeded by 3 holds at love, then 3 points to 40-0 at 6-5 and then finally followed by a hold at love. Edberg just needed the one point to maybe get back in the match.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
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  24. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Additional stat for the '89 semi:

    Becker made 3 of 4 first serves in the tiebreak (75%).

    Lendl made 4 of 5 first serves in the tiebreak (80%): part of a run of 10 straight first serves made.
     
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  25. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Success on 1st and 2nd serve when facing break point:

    Becker won 0 of 0 points on first serve and 2 of 6 on second (33%).
    Lendl won 12 of 12 points on first serve (100%) and 4 of 9 on second (44%).

    Amazing stat by Lendl on first serve. (He had 8 of 8 against Cash in the ’87 final here. Newcombe won 11 of 11 in the 1970 final against Rosewall).
     
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  26. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Remarkably similar to their '88 meeting - Becker was 4 of 24 on break points. Lendl faced a ton of break points in those 2 matches(saved 36 of them)

    interesting stat. will try to get that stat on the '88 match sometime.
     
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  27. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Good look forward to it.

    All those break points saved by Lendl, not a single love-40 hold in the '89 semi. Either from him or Becker.
     
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  28. helterskelter

    helterskelter Professional

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    I'm also not sure how helpful staying back would have been for Lendl, partly because I think it's a mistake to think he would mostly win long rallies against more natural grass courters. Someone like Edberg could throw in a slice that would really trouble him. And Becker could just clobber the ball enough times to get a few breaks.

    I was at the 1995 Wimbledon final. Becker was getting burned so badly by Sampras's returns of his second serve that I at one point suggested to my friend that he stay back on second serve. Not just my friend but some people near us reacted as though I was crazy.

    Twenty years on, it's hard to know who was right. Looked at from a contemporary perspective, it seems that staying back on second serve wasn't such a bad idea after all. But so many players felt they had to come in on it that I think there was some wisdom to the view.
     
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