Stats for Mandlikova-Navratilova('86 Wimbledon Final)

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Moose Malloy, Jun 21, 2009.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    Navratilova defeated Mandlikova 7-6(1), 6-3 to win her 5th straight Wimbledon.

    Mandlikova was hitting some unreal shots through the 1st 7-8 games of this match.

    My stats:

    Mandlikova had 25 winners: 10 fh, 10 bh, 4 fvh, 1 ov
    Navratilova had 25 as well: 3 fh, 8 bh, 8 fhv, 5 bhv, 1 ov

    Hana had 2 aces, 3 doubles
    Martina had 5 aces, 2 doubles

    Martina served at 76%(57 of 75)
    She won 40 of 57 pts on 1st serve(70%) & 11 of 18 on 2nd(61%)

    Hana served at 65%(37 of 57)
    She won 24 of 37 pts on 1st serve(65%) & 13 of 20 on 2nd(65%)

    Martina had 20 unreturned serves, 4 of which I judged a service winner
    Hana had 15 unreturned serve, one I judged a service winner

    Martina had 11 passing shot winners(3 fh, 8 bh)
    Hana had 15(6 fh, 9 bh)

    Martina was 2 of 3 on break points, Hana 1 of 6

    Was very impressed by Hana's kick 2nd serve in this match(one of the best I've ever seen by a woman) Strangely she didn't follow it to net much(but usually got a weak reply to hit a fh winner off of)

    Stats by NBC:

    at 2-1 in the 2nd
    Martina was 23 of 41 at net
    Hana was 19 of 31

    after the 1st set:
    Martina 18 winners, 4 unforced
    Hana 21 winners, 2 unforced
     
    #1
  2. grafrules

    grafrules Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,180
    Such a huge shame Hana never won Wimbledon. Definitely the best grass court player to never win there. Very unlucky to be in the era of Martina at Wimbledon, and even with Chris as the 2nd best grass courter.
     
    #2
  3. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    923
    I buy into King's theory about Hana at Wimbledon. She was a "perfect conditions" player, as she put it. She did well in the years in which there was little rain, especially in the 2nd week. Those years like 1982, 1985, 1988 where it rained right from the start, Hana played poorly. Since the mental side of the game was sometimes a problem for her, the rain delays didn't help that either.

    In 1981, 1984, and 1986 the weather was mostly good, especially in the second week. The balls bounced higher, which was good for her considering that she didn't rush the net as much as Martina, Shriver, or Sukova did. With Martina serving as well as she did, I think she was going to win the 1986 final anyway. But Hana was a bit unlucky to have the first bit of rain overnight and in the early morning before the final. Both players said the bounces were lower, the balls were heavier, and Hana had noticeable trouble with her footing in that match.

    Most pros say that the French is the hardest to win. But Hana always said that it was Wimbledon for her. No wonder........

    All in all, it was an entertaining final that I wish would have gone to a 3rd set. Hana had a great record vs. Martina in tiebreaks, but not on this day. It was the reverse of the US Open final of the previous year.
     
    #3
  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    The Deseret News:

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...1845181&dq=navratilova+22+straight+mandlikova

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...1852299&dq=navratilova+22+straight+mandlikova

    That streak ended at 1-all in the second.

    I wonder who might be higher, maybe Wilander in the 1988 FO final.

    And according to NBC she didn't lose a point on second serve until 5-3 in the first.

    Interesting that she had a higher success on second serve than Martina, and matched her own success on first serve (maybe that's less rare than in men's matches but it's still an impressive stat for the second serve).
     
    #4
  5. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    do you think this is that uncommon? I would think Evert would have done something like this in her career, since she wasn't going for much.

    Martina served at 73% vs Graf the next year. I wonder how high she generally served at over the course of a season.

    I think Martina did better on Hana's 1st serves than 2nd because hana was coming in on 1st serves (giving martina a target)
    Hana was staying back on 2nd serves most of the time, but Martina couldn't chip & charge because of the kick, so it became more about their baseline game on those points.

    Great memory. Hana went on & on about the 'heavy' conditions with Collins in the post match interview.

    I watched the '84 AO SF between Martina & Sukova last year & was struck by how rarely Sukova came in on 2nd serves, while Martina was S&Ving on both 1st & 2nds. I wonder how often Sukova came in at Wimbledon.

    Its impressive how committed Martina was to coming in all the time, no matter how much she was passed.
     
    #5
  6. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    I've got Martina at 71% in that final, per the NY Times.

    I'd be surprised if Chris ever had a streak like this one. For sure, she tried not to miss her first serve against players like Martina; and she wasn't going for much. But whenever I watch her it seems like she gets a lot of first serves in, but then misses one before too long. She never had the greatest technique, for one. And I think she sometimes got dodgy on her serve precisely because of the pressure she felt facing Martina, knowing that she was going to be attacked if she wasn't careful with her serve.

    She might have such a streak somewhere, I don't know. But to me that would still be less impressive than a serve-and-volleyer doing it. That's probably the reason Martina's streak was reported in so many newspapers.
     
    #6
  7. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    923
    Its impressive how committed Martina was to coming in all the time, no matter how much she was passed.[/QUOTE]


    I agree. She had a great second serve and could back it up better than any other woman could. That's the biggest difference, IMO. In the days of wood racquets, you saw more ladies doing it on both serves. That began to fade away with the graphite. Still, Martina physically was able to cover her lines better than any woman I've ever seen.

    Plus, Martina's flat backhand return from about 1982 forward is something that she gets little credit for. But that was a great weapon that she developed against attacking players. On balance, I would say that Hana had flashier shots and better returns off both sides than Martina. In fact, that was the secret to Hana's success against her, especially on the backhand side where she either chipped low and down the line or she could crack a topspin return. But Martina never had to face a second serve that was as good as her own.

    Martina's secret to success against Hana, to me, seemed to be how she was willing to serve to Hana's forehand which was hard and flat but had less variety. Most people didn't and with good reason. How many times in this match (and in others) did Martina serve aces out wide to Hana's forehand in the deuce court?
     
    #7
  8. NadalandFedererfan

    NadalandFedererfan Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2007
    Messages:
    930
    It must have been frusterating for Hana. She played amazingly well but Martina is the greatest female grass court player in history and definitely showed it again that day. Hana played near perfect tennis in many respects and still lost.

    Who is the best player to never win Wimbledon on the female side. The way I look at it, it depends what you are basing it on:

    Best player to never win Wimbledon- Seles
    Best grass court player to never win Wimbledon- Mandlikova
    Best combined player/best grass court player to never win Wimbledon- Henin since she is the 2nd best player (after Seles) and 2nd best grass courter (after Hana) so is the best combining the two
     
    #8
  9. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    Hana is one of the very few players that could take Martina out of the match. Both Evert and Martina said sometimes you just watched and prayed the light in Hana would flicker enough to let you in. I cannot think of another player which made Navratilova a standby for a period of games. usually of course once3 the light flickered, it could dim rather quickly, and then burst forth brightly in glorious luminescence.
     
    #9
  10. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    apparently Benneteau hit 25 1st serves in a row vs Fed today.
     
    #10
  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    What, there's TENNIS still going on?
    :)
     
    #11
  12. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,391
    Hana

    I always felt she was the female version of John McEnroe...amazing skills, amazing hands...tho' far more inconsistent than Mac. But, when she was on, only she could make Evert and Navratilova look like weekend hackers...
     
    #12
  13. Ripper014

    Ripper014 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,863
    Totally agree... and the first few games of this match were some of some of my favorite of any player. I had this match taped... but at some point misplaced it.

    She may not have won at Wimbledon but she did win the other 3 grand slams, and made the Wimbledon finals twice. What I guess some of us might have forgotten is that almost no one beat both Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova in the same tournament, and that is what you would have to do to win a major.
     
    #13
  14. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    my stats on the '87 AO Final(Mandlikova d Navratilova 7-5, 7-6)

    Mandlikova made 35 of 75 1st serves(47%) won 23 of 35 pts on 1st serve(66%) & 20 of 40 on 2nd serve(50%)

    Navratilova made 53 of 83 1st serves(64%) won 33 of 53 pts on 1st serve(62%) & 8 of 30 on 2nd serve(27%)

    Mandlikova had 24 winners: 10 fh, 7 bh, 7 bhv. had 5 aces, 4 df's.

    Navratilova had 26 winners: 10 fh, 5 bh, 7 fhv, 3 bhv, 1 ov. had 2 aces, 4 df's.

    Mandlikova had 20 unreturned serves, 4 were service winners. Martina had 21, no sw's.

    Mandlikova was 6 of 12 on bp's. Martina was 5 of 9. Hana won 85 pts, Martina 73.
     
    #14
  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    Martina got more first serves in than Hana but her success on second serve was abysmal (ESPN had her at 27% too).

    1986 W final – 43% of the points ended with a clean winner/ace
    1987 AO final – 36% did
    1985 USO final – 43% did
     
    #15
  16. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,889
    Gonzales made 33 straight vs Pasarell at Wimbledon(8 to end the 4th, 25 to begin the 5th)
     
    #16
  17. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    I've got to see this match. Astounding statistic for a big server.

    By then he was completing the win from two sets down, winning the last three sets 16-14, 6-3, 11-9. Epic stuff.
     
    #17
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Mandlikova was a unique talent.In a weaker era, such as Graf´s dominance at the end of 1980´s or today´s, she would have a better record in GS finals.Her problem was, she was facing a two head monster in the person of Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert, both playing at their peaks ( and Austin and Jaeger as second dishes).
     
    #18
  19. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    OREGON
    Am entire generation of women players were denied much experience reaching and winning big points in finals because Chris and Martina were such hogs. Austin, Sukova and Mandlikova did better than most. They actually beat them in sucession to win titles. When your idea of a really big high pressure moment in your career is a QF vs Evert in the Open after having met Navratilova in the third rd of Wimbledon, You are not going to do very well in finals. Handling big league pressure well takes practice with big league pressure. As good as Graf was, she wasn't sitting in both sides of the draw! You can't blame a Shriver or a Garrison or Maleeva for not walking away with a major while Sanchez Novatna, and Martinez did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2011
    #19
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Austin and Mandlikova beat both of them in majors.Never did so Sukova, she was not in the same league:)
     
    #20
  21. Steve132

    Steve132 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    840
    Sukova beat Evert in the 1986 U.S. Open semi finals. She also beat Navratilova in the 1984 Australian Open SF, 1989 Australian QF and 1993 U.S. Open fourth round. The 1984 victory over Navratilova was particularly significant, since it ended the longest winning streak of the Open era (74 matches) and almost certainly prevented Navratilova from completing a calendar year Grand Slam. (She would have had to face Evert in the final, but at this stage of their careers Martina completely dominated their rivalry).
     
    #21
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    She would emulate her mother vera, isn´t it? probably the greatest mother&daughter combo ever...
     
    #22
  23. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Players like Shriver, Garrison, and Maleeva wouldnt have major champions in any era, other than maybe the last 2 years where any decent player and their pet cow can win a major. They simply arent that good. Certainly not in Sanchez Vicario's league. Shriver might be close to the level of Martinez and Novotna, definitely not the other two.
     
    #23
  24. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    In '86 W final, in the tiebreak:

    Navratilova made 4 of 4 first serves and won all 4 points (three serves did not come back at all). Mandlikova made 3 of 4 first serves (but lost 2 of the 3).

    Interesting contrast with some of the poor numbers we've been seeing for Martina in big tiebreaks at the USO.
     
    #24
  25. krosero

    krosero Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    5,622
    In the tiebreak by my count:

    Mandlikova made 3 of 4 first serves, suffered no mini-breaks of any kind.

    Navratilova made 1 of 4 first serves (she won it but lost all her points on second serve).

    Hana won 7 of 10 tiebreaks in their rivalry altogether (this one was the last one), according to the WTA site. But ESPN said that Hana had won 9 of 12 coming into this match.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
    #25

Share This Page