Still waiting for an English winner of Wimbledon

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by andy3000, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. andy3000

    andy3000 New User

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    Andy Murray may have won Wimbledon but as an English person it doesn't mean much to me. He's Scottish. Fred Perry was English. We're still waiting for an English winner. Yes, whether English or Scottish you are British as well but there really should be a separate English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish distinction in all sports, as it is in football, golf, cricket, rugby union, the Commonwealth Games etc. The sight of so many people at Wimbledon waving their Scottish flags is all the evidence you need. English and Scottish nationalities really are as distinct from eachother, if not more so, than American and Canadian for instance, or Australian and New Zealander. It's rubbish being "British" when it comes to sport, no one knows where they stand. Tim Henman was very rarely, if ever, referred to as English but only ever as British. But every piece you ever see about Murray will mention he's Scottish. If it just said "SCO" after Murray's name that would be great, everyone would know where they stand then.
     
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  2. Terry Tibbs

    Terry Tibbs Rookie

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    Fair point. I think it could be another 77 years at least before we see an English winner! The highest ranked English player at the moment is Daniel Evans who is ranked 252 in the world!
     
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  3. llodra_fan

    llodra_fan Semi-Pro

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    Only practical possibility is Laura Robson if she gets control over her temper. I don't see any male in the following few years.
     
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  4. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    He's British, i'm British. Henman isn't like most Brits, or English people. Murray is from a small working class place up north, was brought up in the same environment as the majority of people that live here etc..

    I've got far more in common with him than I ever did with Henman. All 3 of us were born in Britain, Murray is the one the average Brit would relate to.

    As for Britain and sport. I've been supporting the Lions over the last few months, England and Wales in the cricket, team GB at the Olympics last year etc.. Can't see why I should be hoping for Morgan to fail with the bat, I never wanted Robert Croft to get smashed around the ground because he was Welsh. I didn't want Halfpenny to miss a kick, I certainly didn't want Hoy to fall of his bike in the keirin. Cavendish is from the Isle of Man, is it bad i've been pleased to see him win 24 stages of the Tour de France?

    I don't see Spaniards hoping for Nadal to get beaten because he's from Mallorca. Weird.
     
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  5. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    would you like to have a team GB in soccer too? I think that would be a nice idea, much stronger team.
     
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  6. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    I thought it was good in the Olympcs, would certainly be good to have Bale on the same side! It won't really happen though, some of these sports have been going for 100+ years and they have too much history for change to be a good thing.

    Football sides will always be individual, the Olympic team will be British, same for the cricket team, the Lions will be British, tennis (both individual and Davis Cup) will be British etc..
     
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  7. Monsieur_DeLarge

    Monsieur_DeLarge Semi-Pro

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    Dunblane? By Scottish standards it's quite posh.


    Regards,
    MDL
     
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  8. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

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    Well, if you want an English winner, all you have to do is follow the Murray model: spot your best talents and move them to Spain at an early age.

    I think it's telling that the best two British players (Murray and Robson) both got out of the LTA system at early ages, Murray going to Spain and Robson sticking to non-LTA coaching.
     
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  9. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Well, if you're including women, then Virginia Wade won in 1977.
     
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  10. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    The sight of people waving saltires has clearly irked you, but plenty were also waving UJ's.

    You seem to be labouring under the illusion that England (or Scotland, or Wales, or NI) is a sovereign nation, and that as such England and Scotland are comparable to USA and Canada or NZ and Oz - this is simply not the case. Canadians and Americans have different passports, as do Kiwis and Aussies - because those countries are sovereign nations, with their own seat at the UN and their own Embassies around the world.

    Murray's nationality is British - as is yours. You share the same passport and the same head of state as Murrray - you are part of the same Sovereign nation.
     
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  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Who cares what their nationality or citizenship really is?

    Does anyone really care that Federer was not born in their own country?

    I kind of like the fact he comes from a small state.

    And a multi-national one at that, like Britain oddly enough.
     
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  12. Fiji

    Fiji Legend

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    LOL @ the OP.
     
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  13. High street sw19

    High street sw19 Rookie

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    Look at the British teams, the cricket team is full of South Africans, the Rugby team is raiding as many pacific Islands as they can, The Lions are Welsh, Mo is from Africa and on and on. Wade was South African, the last British winner.
     
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  14. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Murray, Scott in defeats, British in victories.
     
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  15. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    All I have to say is that you'd better get used to waiting.
     
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  16. High street sw19

    High street sw19 Rookie

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    You could not be more correct, the Lions rugby coach was being critisied all over England for picking so many Welsh rugby players last week, that was until they won....now we are all British again :)
     
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  17. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Yeah I never got why you guys were separated in Football/soccer either. Its one country isnt it?? Why would states choose to have separate teams. Its like California and Texas playing separately in the FIFA WC. I never understood that.
     
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  18. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    If it's not Scottish, it's crap.
     
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  19. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Whilst England, Scotland, Wales, NI are not sovereign nations, they can reasonably be described as countries, provinces or kingdoms, each of which had centuries of history in their own right prior to the various Acts of Union that created Great Britain and then the United Kingdom.

    The first international football matches were played between 'countries' that made up the UK, with each of those countries having its own football association - which all pre-dated the creation of FIFA.
     
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  20. clayqueen

    clayqueen Hall of Fame

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    If Scotland becomes independent then England will still be waiting for a men's champion since Fred Perry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
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  21. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    :confused: England will be waiting for a men's champion whether Scotland votes for independence or not. There is no correlation between either event.
     
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  22. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Although Catalan is spoken, Mallorca is part of Spain(Castile), not Catalonia.
     
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  23. Peters

    Peters Semi-Pro

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    The UK is such a melting pot of races, mixed places of birth, unusual citizenship scenarios and so on, it becomes quite an obtuse discussion.

    The old-fashioned concept of what constitutes a true Englishman is itself a questionable thing to pin down. How far back do you go? What should the criteria be?

    All I know is I'm British and support Murray as much as I'd support any English tennis player.

    I mean, why wouldn't I? We're both of the same sovereign nation.
     
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  24. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    On the surface that might seem the case, but the U.S. and Canada are hardly homogenous nations. The difference between someone from Alabama and Boston might be greater than that of a Scot to an Anglo. Further, you have Quebec in Canada, but other regional distinctions as well. Ever heard someone from Newfoundland speak? They sound Scottish. So, the difference between a maritime Newfoundlander and a Vancouver urbanite, would be night and day. Now, make a U.S./Canada comparison with that same Newfoundlander to someone from Hollywood. They would barely recognize one another.
     
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  25. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    Aren't the sub-divisions of GB (England, Scotland, Wales, etc.) somewhat different than our individual states in the U.S. I get the comparison - they're subunits of a larger whole, with their own government, etc. But, I thought it was somewhat different than our states.
     
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  26. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    That would be after Murray win....so Murray Wimbledon Victory is UK or British!
     
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  27. Scottish Tennis Fanatic

    Scottish Tennis Fanatic New User

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    Scotland's Andy Murray Wimbledon champion.

    According to the herald he will make his feelings known about Independence soon. I hope he doesn't because he cant win.
     
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  28. Scottish Tennis Fanatic

    Scottish Tennis Fanatic New User

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    Scotland is semi independent as it stands. We have a number of policies that are not in force in England and Wales. Not to mention our own law.

    Also right wing nutcases don't get votes here:)
     
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  29. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    It is drastically different. Each of the four nations within the UK are just that--nations, and formerly sovereign ones at that. The American state system are annexed lands occupied by enough Americans to kick out previous inhabitants. I think the closest we have would be North/South/Mideast/West/Alaska, since each region is drastically different from others in terms of culture and American heritage, but even that isn't even a good comparison.
     
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  30. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    He shouldn't bother - it's not like he's allowed a vote on the subject.
     
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  31. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    It's the same story in Britain, Spain and everywhere, if you want to go back far enough. The Angles and Saxons drove the Celts to the north and west, then annexed what was left of their sovereign nations. But that's ancient history. They have been part of the same country, speaking the same language for centuries.
     
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  32. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    England are already still waiting for a men's champion! ;-)

    As for Murray, he won Wimbledon as a British player and that record will stand no matter what happens to Scotland in the future!
     
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  33. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Lol...you'd better take cover if any outraged Catalans see this! :wink:

    Mallorca and all the Balearic islands are part of Catalonia and speak a variant of the Catalan language as well as standard Spanish (or Castilian).
     
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  34. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Virginia Wade was born in Britain to British parents. They went to live in South Africa when she was a baby (her father was an Anglican minister who was made Archbishop of Durban) and she learned to play tennis there as a teenager.
    She and her family returned to the UK when she was 15. She has always played as a British player.
     
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  35. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    No, Mainad. The Balearic Islands are an autonomous state, and Mallorca has been aligned with Castile for centuries.
     
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  36. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    But isn't he allowed to vote in the referendum that will be held on 18 September 2014?
     
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  37. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    I'm sorry, you are right. I stand corrected. But aren't the islands linguistically and culturally Catalan? Don't the inhabitants regard themselves as Catalans?

    When I was on holiday in Menorca, a few years ago, Catalan seemed to be the principal language in everyday use.
     
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  38. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Not if he's not on the Electoral Register of Scotland. Given that he lives in Surrey, that would seem to be unlikely.
     
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  39. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Rafa cheers Madrid.
     
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  40. hrstrat57

    hrstrat57 Hall of Fame

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    Wasn't I just reading that Scotland is mulling over another bid for independence? UK navy worried about having to replace Faslane sub base?

    Or holy William Wallace was I dreaming that?
     
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  41. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Compared to Glasgow, everywhere else in Scotland is "quite posh".
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
    #41
  42. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Glasgow is a big place, it has posh areas too. Bearsden is in Glasgow and Raploch is in Stirling. But you wouldn't want to wander round the Raploch at night.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
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  43. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    And I'm still waiting for Godot, it's the way it goes.
     
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  44. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    But he prefers to play Barcelona! :wink:
     
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  45. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Oh ok!! Thank you! that makes much more sense. I wanted to make sure I learn first before making a comment. :)
     
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  46. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    No problem mate. British history is long and complicated - feel free to ask anything that you've ever wondered about.
     
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  47. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I certainly wouldn't say that with Northern Ireland.

    In 1536, Henry VIII's chief minister, Thomas Cromwell, united the legal systems of England and Wales. The death of Elizabeth I in 1603 without any children, saw the end of the Tudor dynasty. The King of Scotland, James VI, then became James I of England, thereby uniting the two monarchies.

    1707 was the creation of the Kingdom of Great Britain, when England and Wales officially merged together with Scotland. 1801 was when Ireland was officially added, creating the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. After the Irish victory over the British in the 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence, the British created the artificial territory of "Northern Ireland" out of 6 counties in the historic region of Ulster in order to divide and rule the Irish population and prevent an united Ireland. The UK became known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland after this, its current official name.

    Majorca was invaded by the Aragon Crown forces a few times in the 13th and 14th centuries, and the Aragon Crown forces eventually went into an alliance with the Castilian Crown forces in 1479.

    Franco's attempted fascist coup in July 1936 failed in two thirds of Spain after the masses got wind of it, causing the Spanish Civil War, but the fascist coup succeeded in Majorca, and Majorca was occupied by the fascists throughout the Spanish Civil War. The Republicans nearly retook Majorca in August and September 1936, but the attempt was defeated by Mussolini's airforce power from Italy. Minorca was the only Balearic Island to remain under Republican control for the vast majority of the war, falling to the fascists in February 1939. By 1 April 1939, all of Spain had fallen to the tender mercies of the fascists, and WW2 was inevitable.

    Rafael Nadal supports the Real Mallorca and Real Madrid football teams. His uncle, Miguel Angel Nadal, famously played for Real Mallorca and FC Barcelona. A 10 year old Rafa was in the crowd at Wembley when his uncle missed the decisive penalty kick against England at Euro 96.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2013
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  48. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    What is it with the ugly English racism against Scots?
     
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  49. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    You're both British, so you being English and him being Scottish is irrelevant.
     
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  50. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    You pretty much nailed it in a sentence, nice :)
     
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