Stringing 2 mains at once to save time OK?

Discussion in 'Strings' started by bruno hau, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. bruno hau

    bruno hau Rookie

    Joined:
    May 16, 2004
    Messages:
    131
    I was at *********'s the other day and saw the stringing lady string 2 mains at a time (to save time, I guess). She said that was the way they (*********'s) taught her to string. But she also side she does NOT string 2 crosses at a time.

    Is stringing 2 mains at a time OK to save a little time? Wouldn't the non-pulling main string not be as tight as the pulling main string?
     
    #1
  2. No I don't think that is ok at all. And saving time on the mains? They should take you all of five minutes if you're focused...
     
    #2
  3. kingdaddy41788

    kingdaddy41788 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,753
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    It's not ok. Don't do it. Don't let someone who does it string your racquet. What store were you at?
     
    #3
  4. mpenders

    mpenders New User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    47
    Generally, I would agree in saying no to pulling two mains at once on a standard frame. That, and it's time to find another stringer.

    However, there are several racquetball frames that REQUIRE you to pull two mains at once. Head, Eforce, Wilson, Ektelon each have frames that require this.

    So...make sure you undestand what the stringer was working on before judging too harshly.
     
    #4
  5. shojun25

    shojun25 Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,492
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    I think he's referring to Golf smith.

    And no, do not do that. The stringer will just give an inconsistent tension if you pull 2 mains at once.
     
    #5
  6. mpenders

    mpenders New User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    47
    I was guessing Oshman's (based on the " 's ")
     
    #6
  7. nickb

    nickb Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    6,292
    Dont do it....it wont save much time....the stringbed will be inconsistent.
     
    #7
  8. gjoc

    gjoc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Nine letters before the “ ’s ” though.
     
    #8
  9. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Guymon, OK
    Enough said...
     
    #9
  10. tbini87

    tbini87 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,543
    Location:
    Chico, CA
    don't do it, don't let anyone who does it string your sticks. learn the right way and do it everytime to get consistent results.
     
    #10
  11. dancraig

    dancraig Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,240
    I think a lot of stringers double and triple pull to save time and effort. I heard that the pre-strung racquets have all the mains pulled with one or two pulls. I heard they have one lady insert the string and another pulls the tension. Here are some of the machines used in those racquet factories.

    http://www.eagnas.com/lilylee/racfactor.html

    I had an old time stringer advise me to just add a couple of pounds to the requested tension to make up for the friction of double pulling everything. He said, "they can't tell any difference".
    I've got a feeling we would be surprised at the number of respected stringers who do this all the time. Time is money, I guess.
    I never do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2007
    #11
  12. dancraig

    dancraig Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,240
    I would like to take two identical racquets and string one correctly and double and triple pull the heck out of the other one, after adding a couple of pounds of tension to the second. Then take them out and hit.
    If we could get our normal stringing time down to 15 minutes, four frames per hour would be some pretty good money. (just kidding)
     
    #12
  13. bruno hau

    bruno hau Rookie

    Joined:
    May 16, 2004
    Messages:
    131
    It was at Golf Smith. She was definitely stringing a tennis racket. The machine is a Gamma constant pull electronic machine (modern floor model of course). I guess for a contant pull electronic machine stringing 2 mains at one time MIGHT be OK?
     
    #13
  14. JohnP

    JohnP Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2007
    Messages:
    308
    No, 2 mains at a time is not OK. But it happens way too much. Professional stringing done at clubs and stores are some of the biggest ripoffs, not only the amount charged, but the general sloppiness like doubling up on mains, etc.
     
    #14
  15. rlee7777

    rlee7777 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    134
    Location:
    Nampa, Idaho
    By pulling two or three mains at a time, it is impossible to achieve a consistent stringbed at a reference tension. This bad technique is why racquets fresh from a "retail stringer" play so bad initially. I was in retail doing racquet stringing many years ago. While I took pride in my work and was very careful, stringers in other stores took shortcuts and were proud about the quickness of their job. Our Ektelon machines were all calibrated from the same tech, but jobs from each branch store came out different because of the person doing the stringing. USRSA certification means nothing. I am a tennis player and I know what a poor job would do with the racquet and someone's game. These other "stringers" are looking to make $$ quickly.

    Moral of this rant: KNOW who is stringing your racquet! Don't be impressed by their fancy machines.
     
    #15
  16. samster

    samster Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,017
    That's why I string my own rackets. No one to blame when it comes out wrong.
     
    #16
  17. dacrymn

    dacrymn Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2006
    Messages:
    887
    What do you mean two mains at once? You mean down and up, then tension? if you do it one way, how do you tighten with the tensioner in the way, not to mention the throat?
     
    #17
  18. abenguyen

    abenguyen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    Texas
    it just means that you lace two mains and tension there. rather than lacing one main and tensioning clamp and then repeat for 2 strings, they are saying that this stringer laced 2 mains tensioned off that last one and clamp which is bad
     
    #18
  19. Hooooon

    Hooooon Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Messages:
    367
    even tension should not be your concern here, although it is afftected. by pulling on a string that is wrapped around the grommet you risk snapping the string if it gets caught and guarantee weakening your frame, possibly breaking it if you string anywhere near the high end recommended tension (above rec. tension you are a moron for trying to pull 2). ta ta
     
    #19
  20. dacrymn

    dacrymn Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2006
    Messages:
    887
    but what about the handle that knocks against the tension wheel? What about the throat that gets in the way?
     
    #20
  21. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Guymon, OK
    It should NEVER be done unless it is absolutely necessary, ala some racketball rackets.

    USRSA certification DOES mean something, just less than what it used to. The point of knowing who is stringing your rackets is by far the best. Watch them string your racket. Ask questions. If any of the answers involve words like "shortcut" or "to save time", be suspicious.

    Not all USRSA stringers are bad, but some are. I've heard of MRTs using this very same method to save time. It's sad, but true. However, if you cannot spend the time with the stringer that is necessary, either don't have it strung, or leave it with someone who is certified. A stranger who isn't certified is a bigger risk than one who is IMO.
     
    #21
  22. User Name

    User Name Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    557
    not ok.....
     
    #22
  23. gjoc

    gjoc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    I’d certainly agree with that.

    To me, USRSA certification doesn’t mean they don’t do it wrong, it just means they supposedly know better.
     
    #23
  24. lilxjohnyy

    lilxjohnyy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,758
    Location:
    Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    i was just wondering if this also applied to crosses..
     
    #24
  25. gjoc

    gjoc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Yes, absolutely.

    It’s actually even more important to do one at a time with the crosses because of the friction/drag/resistance from weaving through the already-tensioned mains.
     
    #25
  26. jasoncho92

    jasoncho92 Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    900
    From common sense, i can say its a lot worse with poly than a multifilament or natural gut because of the coil memory which keeps poly from full evening the tension out on both mains. So if you have to do it with a softer string, go ahead but dont with poly. Also dont do it on crosses even if youre in a hurry
     
    #26
  27. shojun25

    shojun25 Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,492
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    This doesn't make sense... How can you even do it with cross stringing?
     
    #27
  28. Mad iX

    Mad iX Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    710
    Location:
    Australia 3195
    Happens all the time. Stringers tend to get lazy when their lunch break is coming up.
    I don't think it really saves much time at all. For me personally, most of the time I spend is on weaving the crosses anyway.
    If you're stringing your own racket then you could try and see if you can feel the difference for yourself, but you will most likely get an inconsistent stringbed.
     
    #28
  29. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,031
    Yes, there are crooked tennis professionals and stringers just like there are crooked lawyers, accoutnants and doctors.

    I like pro shops, with guys who actually care about their products, services and reputations.

    Places like golfschmidt, they are only good for a clothing or apparel sale, as far as I am concerned. Trusted with actual tennis equipment? Nah.
     
    #29
  30. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Guymon, OK
    You will get an inconsistent string bed. The question is whether or not you notice.

    And just because you are stringing with a multifilament, doesn't mean the problem isn't there. The friction at the grommets when the string turns the corner is too great to insure that both mains are at the same reference tension. To prove this, if you have a linear tension head, pull both ways, one on one side of the mains, one on the other. The cummulative amount of string you pull through the grommets by pulling two at a time will be less than both separately. This directly relates to the actual tension on the mains.

    Also, as it was stated. Doing this on crosses is WORSE. Because you have added the friction of the crosses against the mains to the friction of turning that corner. This is always bad. I can't see it saving time anyhow. Pulling two crosses at one time guarantees that you will be weaving a hard weave atleast once. The time saved from weaving one ahead is lost at the "benefit" of the time saved from pulling half the time. I would speculate that it doesn't balance out in the two-at-a-time's favor.

    The bottom line, as I've stated before, is only do it when you have no other choice (like some racketball rackets.)
     
    #30
  31. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Guymon, OK
    Not ALL of them are bad. I hear they are better on the West Coast and near New York, but for the most part, I'm afraid, you are right.

    Again, the better your relationship with your stringer and the more questions you ask, the safer you and your racket are from mis-treatment.
     
    #31
  32. Masamusou

    Masamusou Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    And another perfect example of a broad generalization that makes you sound completely ignorant. I know for a fact that some of the locations have MRTs, one such MRT in the Dallas area for example posts on these boards sometimes and has strung pro tournaments for a while. Another MRT in the Denver area uses his personal Star 5 instead of the substandard Neos 1000 that is provided. No national chain is going to have great stringers at all locations, but to make the comment that *none* of them do is entirely ridiculous and only serves to show your ignorance.
     
    #32
  33. Netbudda

    Netbudda Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    277
    Funny, I saw a pro of a well respected tennis club here in Davidson, NC pulling two crosses until the racquet was done ( I don't know about the mains, they were already done before I started watching ). I asked him if it was alright to do so and he said it was. It got me thinking really hard about how much they really care about the customers, especially if the racquet owner is just a senior guy who just plays recreational tennis.
     
    #33
  34. chrisplchs

    chrisplchs Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    879
    There are some racquets that you have to double pull the mains (i.e. Prince Ring) which sux to do.

    But generally, for most racquets, double pulling is crime punishable by a punch in the crouch
     
    #34
  35. IanRichardson

    IanRichardson Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    482
    This is why it is important to find a good reputable stringer who you can establish a relationship with, and trust. I personally would never have my racquet strung by a large retail store, eg. (Sprts Auth) because USUALLY (not all the time) the person stringing knows little to nothing about tennis. That is at least what i have found to be true. The best thing to do is get a stringing machine and do it yourself, it isnt hard and it really isnt that time consuming. If you insist on having someone else do the job for you then find a shop which has someone who is certified, or someone who really knows what they are doing. Here in winston-salem NC, the best tennis shop is ran buy a guy who is not USRA, but who has been stringing (and stringing correctly) for about 30 years. On the other hand, in High Point, NC there is a tennis center with a few USRA guys that I would not trust my sticks to. The point of what i said is, find someone that knows what they are doing, and above all you trust, and let them do the work.
     
    #35
  36. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,031

    Very sorry you think I sound ignorant. Maybe I am ignorant.

    Maybe you've got a bit of a temper...and a soft spot for some of the very good people associated with a certain chain. I do not know.

    Obviously there are exceptions, man. But I would like to point out (from my experience as a player, a stringer, an MRT and a tester for both the USPTA and the USRSA) that...just because someone is an MRT does not mean they are always going to uphold that high standard after they pass that test. And it definitely does not mean that the MRT always holds his uncertified staff to that standard.

    For the record, I never said that *NONE* of the people at GS string well. You used that word. I'm just saying that I trust stringers I know. Not just myself, but the pro shop guys I know. ANd I really trust a shop where I know ALL the stringers who might work on my frame are solid.
    You just do not know who is allowed on the stringing machine at certain places.

    SO sorry I made you so angry. My apologies. Please do forgive me for not being very clear the first time.
     
    #36
  37. GoochMoney

    GoochMoney Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    220
    Location:
    Connecticut
    That is crazy...find another stringer.

    Yesterday, after a match I got talking to my opponent that was looking at purchasing a stringing machine. He was hesitating because the guy they use at the "AUTHORITY" is really good and he picked up a bunch of strings on clearance there. He has no stringing experience so I advised him to pay attention to the mounting because you can really damage a racquet, and maybe even break the frame. He then tells me that this has happened to him at the "AUTHORITY" and they told him they would not do anything because he bought the racquet on clearance -- from them. Crazy!
     
    #37
  38. Lefty5

    Lefty5 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,662
    ok, i admit it, i even pull 2 strings at once when i string my own rackets. I can't tell much off a diff. My question is this...over time, does the inconsistency in the string bed even out? How many sets do you think it takes until all the strings are the same?
     
    #38
  39. knasty131

    knasty131 Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,059
    Location:
    Killeen, Tx
    I also string my rackets by pulling 2 mains and 2 crosses at once...I have done both ways and don't feel a difference...and I am very sensitive on how my strings feel so I think I would notice an "inconsistent string bed"...

    I am going to email Wilson, Babolat and several other racket companies and ask if this voids warranty just for my own information...

    But as far as this being a practice that is "unacceptable", I think it was started by someone who thought that it was bad and voiced his/her opinion and it has become generally accepted amongst everyone...

    My doubles partner used to think that stringing 2 at once was bad and saw me do it and I just flat told him that I don't notice any difference and now he does it and says he doesn't either...

    I'm not saying go out and do this, but I have only used this method on all of my main playing rackets (HPS 7.1, HPS 6.1, nBlade, & Babolat PDR) and nothing bad has ever come from it...

    -Kevin
     
    #39
  40. rlee7777

    rlee7777 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    134
    Location:
    Nampa, Idaho
    Of course it will "work"...the tension will not be consistent across the stringbed initially -- after some time hitting, it will even out, but at a lower unpredictable tension that is not "reference". In other words, stringing this way at "60 lbs" for example, will NOT be a true "60 lbs" -- it will stabilize at a lower tension that is unpredictable because of the varying degrees of grommet friction.

    If you are stringing for yourself, fine. But this is not a good method to assure a reliably consistent, accurate stringing job.
     
    #40
  41. rorschack

    rorschack Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    472
    This is really really bad! And I'll tell you why. I decided to measure the actual tension of my drop weight stringer with the clutch/rachet by using a fish scale which is a very common method. I have a fixed clamp system by the way.

    I tested it with the racquet mounted and simulating how I would pull the first main string with a starting clamp, clamping the string on an adjacent hole on the inside of the racquet. When there's no friction at all like pulling with the head of the racquet pointing toward the string gripper, the tension was dead on.

    Now, when tensioning the opposite way, with the string bent under the frame, the tension was CONSISTENTLY 2-3 lbs lower! I tested and re-tested many times, and it's still 2-3 lbs lower. The friction resulted from the bend reduced the tension by 2-3 lbs!

    I also tested the tension without the frame mounted, and the fish scale showed that the tension was dead on, meaning that my drop weight stringer is good.

    Lesson learned was that any kind of friction will result in significant tension loss. duh! I can't imagine how much tension you are losing by pulling 2 mains at a time, let alone pulling two crosses with the mains already in.

    As for cross, I used to reduce about 2lbs lower than the main, thinking that the cross is shorter, but after seeing how much friction can reduce tension, I am stringing it at the same as the main from now on!
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2007
    #41
  42. courtrage

    courtrage Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    708
    i dont think anyone can tell the diff between 2-3 lbs...i also think i heard about a study that found most people couldnt tell between 5lbs difference...who knows...

    i've double pulled mains on my frames for 7 years and been stringing for 10 or 11 years total...i only really do my own frames and sometimes a friends and never broken any strings or frames on the machine and friends never complained about tension... my machine has a crank, not a weight...
     
    #42
  43. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,031
    2 or three lbs, huh? I believe it, and I think that is significant. In fact I'm impressed that it was not 5 lbs lost.

    I suppose if you are perfectly consistent and always do it...and bump up your reference tension 2 or 3 lbs, you're cool. But I still think it is shoddy. Probably depends on the frame, the friction with the grommet strip, the type of string...those sorts of variables.

    Wonder what the loss is on crosses if you pull two at a time?

    Never mind. I'm not considering it. Ever. That's weak.
     
    #43
  44. gjoc

    gjoc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    That was an interesting article, if you’re thinking of this one.

    Here is an excerpt:

    Note that when they say that the players couldn’t tell the relative tensions, that was based on literally just the feel of the racquets hitting the balls.

    They didn’t let the players hit enough times to get any feedback on where the balls were going on the court, and it doesn’t mean that the players wouldn’t be able to tell/notice the difference in tension if they were to actually play tennis with the different racquets.
     
    #44
  45. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,031
    That test is awesome. But a little contrived don't you think? Four shots?

    Just two weeks ago, I got two identical sticks strung up with the same stuff. One at 60/56, the other at 58/54. Unlabeled. I could definitely tell the difference. By sound, and after just about four or five shots...it was fairly obvious.
    And I consider myself not all that sensitive.
     
    #45
  46. kingdaddy41788

    kingdaddy41788 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,753
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Four shots though? Come on. You'd have to give them ten at least. Especially if they weren't warmed up.
     
    #46
  47. gjoc

    gjoc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Yeah, I’m with you.

    I think it was an interesting article/study, in an intellectual curiosity kind of way, but I don’t think it had any practical significance.

    You know, it’s like how it’s hard to tell how a racquet feels just by bouncing a ball on it, but even small differences are easily noticeable as soon as you start to play with it on a court.
     
    #47
  48. YULitle

    YULitle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 23, 2005
    Messages:
    4,133
    Location:
    Guymon, OK
    In "The Physics and Technology of Tennis," they site a study that said that over 50% of recreational tennis players can't tell a 15 lbs. difference. And, that when 18 professional satellite players were tested, 11 of them couldn't tell an 11 lbs. difference.

    This shouldn't take away from my previous statements of how wrong this practice is. Unless you do this for only your rackets, you should never pull two at a time.

    This isn't something that is rooted in tradition. Stringers don't say not to do it simply because someone told them not to, most of the time. Anyone with a little knowledge of physics can see quite clearly that the tension on the first string is not the same as the first. This creates an inconsistent string bed. There is no arguing this point. It is fact. Aruge all you want that you can't tell the difference. I believe that you can't.
     
    #48
  49. gjoc

    gjoc Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2007
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    LOL, You must warm up a lot faster then me! ;)
     
    #49
  50. kingdaddy41788

    kingdaddy41788 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,753
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Haha I wasn't implying that they'd be fully warm. But if they were even going to have a chance of noticing a difference, they'd need more than 4 shots.
     
    #50

Share This Page