***Stringway Machine Users Club***

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by 10SDad, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    Congrats on your purchase. I think you'll really enjoy the machine, and the clamps are a great choice.
     
  2. TfReAk

    TfReAk Rookie

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    Thanks, I post some pictures as soon as I have it :)
     
  3. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I made this thread here, and I realize the racquet is new so let me rephrase this question:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=488875

    What is the size of the throat that determines switching to the babolat bridge?

    I feel like this racquet may be fine with the regular mounts. I used the Babolat bridge, and it worked, but sounded a little creaky. So I'm just trying to determine the rule of thumb in terms of which way to go.

    Racquet in question:

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Yonex_EZONE_Ai_98/descpageRCYONEX-YAI98.html
     
  4. A Defenseless Creature

    A Defenseless Creature Semi-Pro

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    Try sending an email message to Mark at Alpha/New Tech tennis. Mark is not only the distributor for Stringway machines in the USA, but he is also a Yonex sales representative. He should be able to answer the question for you. Personally, my instincts tell me the adapter will not be necessary, but I have not yet strung that particular Yonex.
     
  5. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Good call. I did not know mark sold yonex too..perfect.

    Thanks!
     
  6. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    There are two general rules for when to use the Babolat retainer:

    1) When the height of the cross-section of the bridge is too short for correct mounting using the regular supports.

    2) When the cross-section is rounded and/or V-shaped, as the force generated against the normal supports in that case will tend to push the racquet upwards, potentially causing the racquet to slide up and over the regular supports.

    I have not seen the Yonex in person, but from the pics I would say it should certainly be strung using the regular supports. The profile of the bridge is the same height as the rest of the frame so it appears that there is enough surface area for their proper usage.

    In addition, the bridge is flatter and less curved (as seen from above) so the Babolat retainer will only support it in the middle of the bridge and with a smaller surface area, since the Babolat retainer is curved and beveled.
     
  7. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yeah, I may have dodged a bullet there. Luckily the frame strung up fine. I will definitely use the standard mounts next time.
     
  8. verbouge

    verbouge Rookie

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    Stringway Mechanical Pull Vs. Electronic Pull

    I am a dedicated Stringway user. I own both an ML 100 T92, and an MS 200 T92. Through my stringing learning curve, I frequented this and other message boards for a total of hundreds of hours. I studied and passed the MRT exam, and keep it active.

    I've been stringing at my own tennis club for a number of months now. The owner of the pro shop, who's a great guy, insists that I use his Prince 5000 instead of my MS 200. This makes sense for consistency of the customers' string beds. I get that. But here's the thing. His Prince machine consistently results in a tighter stringbed than my MS 200, even with all other things being equal (according to the Stringlab I and Racquettune).

    I've put the fish scale on it, and it's spot on. On the MS 200, which is also spot on, I add tension to the outer two mains and the outer two crosses to make up for the tension loss with knots (Parnell). Were I to do that on the Prince machine, the string beds would be ridiculously tight for the reference tension.

    I don't know why this is happening. There is less drawback on the Prince machine, and that may well be it, although the drawback on the Stringway appears to be pulled back out with subsequent string that is tensioned. The clamps on both machines are clean and functioning perfectly. I've adapted to the Prince machine, and have actually become quite accustomed to it, but as a matter of curiosity, any thoughts from the collective?

    Thanks in advance,
    Dave in Oregon
     
  9. jugador.de.tenis

    jugador.de.tenis New User

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    Would you guys with Stringway experience recommend this LM450 machine?

    I'm experienced on most of the higher end stuff, and regularly depend on a Technifibre SP-55 these days.....

    What are you thoughts on the electronic Stringway/Laserfibre??

    Many thanks!
     
  10. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    Dave,

    Great question. From my understanding tighter stringbeds from electronic machines are due to their propensity to over pull when executing a second and sometimes third pull to compensate for string stretch. When an electronic machine does the first pull it can stop accurately at the adjusted tension. The potential issue is the accuracy of the re-pulls it will execute to make up for the initial stretching of the string. When the string relaxes and needs a bit more pull for compensation, it is very difficult for an electronic machine to make very little pulls while not overshooting the tension. This becomes magnified as the speed of the pull the machine is executing increases, I.E.: The faster an electronic machine pulls, the greater the overshoot. The level of overshoot is also dependent on the stiffness of the string. The stiffer the string, the shorter the travel required to make up the difference and thus the higher the overshoot.

    The big advantage of a continuous pull dropweight and the MS200 mechanism is that it is impossible to overshoot the tension. These systems are able to maintain a constant tension, and adjust to/compensate for the smallest loss of tension without overshooting.

    The comparison results you mention regarding the scale are not surprising since a scale will maintain its resistance, unlike string which will relax after the initial pull and require additional tensioning to achieve the poundage you have set. The electronic machine does not need to execute any re-pulls for the scale like it does for string.

    Stringway has done some research specifically on this topic, and has some graphs showing the differences in results. One graph shows the tension on a high-end electronic, demonstrating the overshooting that occurs as the machine tries to adjust. The other shows tension using a dropweight, where there is much less variation. Keep in mind that Stringway sells both mechanical constant pull and electronic machines, so that allows them to conduct tests and provide results that are not biased toward one method or another.

    Here’s a link to the graphs: https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/495x752q90/255/autdropelecklm.jpg
     
  11. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    I have not personally used any of Stringway's electronic machines, however, based upon my experience with their dropweights I would say most certainly have a lot of attention to detail and functionality. I do know that they have some built-in functions and calculations other machines do not appear to have. For example, the EM450 automatically switches to the lowest pull speed when 85% of the tension is reached. There is also a spring-clutch mechanism that allows the motor to take a much longer travel distance than the tension head. Both of these features allow the machine to make more accurate, small pulling strokes, avoiding overstretching of string. (See my response to Dave from Oregon for this context.) I'd recommend you research the functionality of their electronic machines. I'm sure both Mark Gonzales (US Rep for Stringway) and/or Fred Timmer (Stringway) would be happy to provide you the details so you can make an informed decision.
     
  12. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Dave there's your answer - drawback. I will agree that it looks as though all the drawback is being removed from the successive pull but I'm not so sure it really is. When the clamp draws back there is a relax in the previously tensioned string all the way across back through the mains which lowers the tension on the cross. When you pull the next string there is no way you will have full reference tension being pulled on a string that has to go through 16 intersecting friction points and around a 180* turn at the frame.
     
  13. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    If your drop weight is moving then it tends to continue moving. That is overshoot! If you were to take a five pound hammer and rest it gently on a wood table you probably would not dent the wood but you would not have to move it very fast to dent the wood.

    Some stringers do not have manually variable speeds but rather pull at a speed that is determined by the stiffness of the string. As the tension approaches the set tension the motor is slowed down so that the overshoot can be minimized.

    If the tension was measured and it is spot on just like the Stringway how can you assume one has overshoot and one doesn't?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  14. Joonas

    Joonas Semi-Pro

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    Constant pull should mean ideally that the pulling force is constant. This part I do believe Stringway concept. It is no brainer. But other question is again how to determine how you will manage the pulling time. Drop bar won't beep. I try to keep certain rhythm of stringing to keep pulling time constant.

    About tighter string bed from Prince to Stringway would make sense in my view. Stringway fixed clamps do have some play in the base. So you need to be very careful of the clamp position while locking the base clamp. Drawback is there, not huge, to my eye max couple of mm. But whatever the drawback is I don't believe in next pull fixing. Why? Because the drawback happens behind grommet turn with friction. And now multiply that.

    All that being said I am still happy of the consistency of my jobs with Stringway. Comparing the ERT results of SBSs of my jobs are on par. But still the T98 clamps do need a lot of attention and care how to clamp to avoid twisting.

    I have been considering Babolat Sensor as there is one attractively priced one nearby. But then again you start thinking about overshoot and other things. But the solid clamp base is tempting.
     
  15. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    ^^If you think about it all stringing machines are constant pull. If they were the string would go limp. But I'm aware of what you're trying to say. Because of the friction between the frame and string where it enters the grommets the tension inside the frame and outside the frame (between the frame and tensioner) will never be the same. Once the tension inside the frame drops far enough so there is a large enough difference in tension inside and outside the frame the tensioner starts moving and you will have overshoot.

    EDIT: Long story short we're over thinking it. Why not just string?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  16. Joonas

    Joonas Semi-Pro

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    Amen Irvin.
    I would only add that just string and play more.
     
  17. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    I’m going to respectfully disagree with this statement. Since this forum is focused on Stringway machines, I’m going to qualify my response to the Stringway dropweight design, and not reference all dropweights. As the Stringway is an automatic dropweight, the pull poundage remains constant as the string elongates. Once the force of the weight is in balance with string’s elongation at the set tension, movement of the weight stops. Up until that point, movement is continuous. There is no hesitation by the weight itself, no calculation occurring, and no mechanism actively re-pulling in response to perceived changes. In effect, the string is determining the continuous slowing of the stretch until the exact point when balance is achieved and the weight stops moving. The machine does not overshoot, because its movement is solely determined by the elongation of the string against the physics of the weight.

    Because the measuring is done with a tool that will not continue stretching as new string does once the initial measurement is reached.
     
  18. hyperion99

    hyperion99 Semi-Pro

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    A question to all the Stringway members.
    How much does the ML100 approximately weigh?
    Thank you in advance.
     
  19. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    It's heavy - I think it is 40-50 lb range.
     
  20. bbulla

    bbulla Rookie

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    I just mailed mine to a guy in the US. About 50 lbs with all the packing material.
     
  21. hyperion99

    hyperion99 Semi-Pro

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    Ok,thanks for the feedback fellow Talk Tennis members.
     
  22. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    Just weighed mine (with T98 clamps)...35.4 pounds.
     
  23. hyperion99

    hyperion99 Semi-Pro

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    Thanks again 10sDad:)
     
  24. DANMAN

    DANMAN Professional

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    Can anyone give me the measurements of the machine. I currently have a gamma x-st crank and would switch to this laserfibre in an attempt to conserve space and for easy storage. 35 lbs is lighter than the gamma.
     
  25. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    DANMAN,

    Here's a schematic I made with measurements. Width will be 20-1/2" when table is turned 90 degrees, otherwise it is 9" for the mounts, and 17" when mounted clamps are full extended outwards.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  26. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    And a more official one in metric scale...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  27. DANMAN

    DANMAN Professional

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    That's incredible helpful. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Now to decide if it's worth dropping almost a grand for the double action clamps just to save some space in the house when my gamma is perfectly functional...
     
  28. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    just get the stringway clamps. this clamps destroy any gamma clamps away
     
  29. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    If you're not in a big hurry, you can wait for a good used one and it will be about half that amount.
     
  30. verbouge

    verbouge Rookie

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    I'm just revisiting this thread. I failed to read 10sDad's replay back in January! I have no idea why! Great response, and it makes complete sense. I've seen those graphs many times, as have many on this website, and I've come to believe them to be true.

    Here's a logical follow up question, more out of curiosity than practicality. If the purely analog constant pull technology of Stringway can't be beat for accuracy and consistency (ML100 and MS200), why did Stringway choose to dive into the electronics market, and are their machines any better than any of the offerings from other high-end electronic pull manufacturers?

    Of course there is a financial piece. Also, having dealt with Fred Timmer extensively off and on through the years, I see him as the kind of person who embraces an engineering challenge. Still, there is nothing at all that would convince me, and probably some of you other Stringway-heads out there, to abandon my love of the analog near-perfection in favor of fancier, costlier, and flawed-er technology.

    Thoughts, y'all?
     
  31. Joonas

    Joonas Semi-Pro

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    @Verbouge, I have come to understand that Stringway will focus in future on "analog" machines.

    Reason is pretty obvious. In the analog market they are unique and proven good. Electronic market is is harder in terms of competition and their offering there is not as unique as in the analog market.

    So it is clearly about focusing on their strengths.
     
  32. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I now have a Star5 which is notorious for over pull. I have connected a peak hold scale and can see about a 2 lb peak on the initial pull but not subsequent pulls. Looking at Stringway's chart it is showing about a 1-3 lb drop before the tensioner licks in and a 1-3 lb overpull. Also the initial overpull is smaller overpull. I don't believe the graphs at all.

    Also it was stated there was no way the Stringway could overpull. Really? Did you look at the top graph?

    Don't take me wrong both types of machines are good concepts, but I don't believe the bottom graph is indicative of all high end electronic machines.
     
  33. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    I figured that rather than speculating on an answer to this one, that going to the source would be best to get accurate info.

    From Stringway:
    The answer involves several considerations:

    There was a big demand for electronic machines between 1987 and 2005 because shop owners strung more racquets, it was more convenient for them, and they believed it appeared more professional to string on an electronic machine.

    - In 1987 when Stringway had the old ML100 there was a big demand for electronic machines for shops, so we made the EM300 based on the frame of the ML100.

    - The EM400 was the follow up to the EM300, following the design of the MS200 with the same components of the EM300.

    - In 1998 Kirschbaum asked Stringway to manufacture a machine that was more impressive in appearance than the EM400, so we made the EM500. We did not like this machine ourselves, and as the development and the production of the first 50 pieces was under high pressure, the machine had some weak points.

    - So Stringway then developed the EM450 with two stipulations:
    1) It needed to have more features than any other electronic machine, so we built in the Tension calculator, string length calculation, and the ability to store customer information in the machine.
    2) It would be released only when Stringway felt it was as perfect as we could make it.

    Currently Stringway does not make EM450’s as the demand for electronic machines has declined for the following reasons:
    1) Many shops in Europe no longer string.
    2) Stringers found that mechanical constant pull machines have higher accuracy and reliability for a much lower price.

    His development of the new Stringlab 2 is indication of of that.
     
  34. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Stringway ML100 has the longest weight arm of all dropweight machines.

    See the diagram. 51 inches fully extended.

    While you can take the arm out when storing the machine, you need a lot of room when operating the machine.

    That was one of the reasons I opted for the foot-operated Stringway instead.
     
  35. 7zero

    7zero Rookie

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    I decided to buy own machine. Never strung before. Stringway ML100 is my idea, I don't know why, just seems to me like no nonsense thing. I just don't know what options to opt for as complete beginner. Flying/fixed etc.. any help from you? I am planning to get some lessons but for a start what to get?
    floating clamps?
    fixed clamps T98?
    fixed clamps T92?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  36. BlxTennis

    BlxTennis Rookie

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    If you have the money, I would get the T92. It's very convenient with T92. I have the T92 and love it. You just clamp and no other lever to push. If you want to save some money, flying clamps are fine too. In my opinion, the concorde system is nice to have but not a must have. Then again, it's only $80 so I would if I were you buying a new machine.
     
  37. Audiophile

    Audiophile Rookie

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    Nice thread! I would like to join, if possible.

    I own a LF MS 200 FX machine with dual action clamps. (Stringway ML 120) I've owned it since about 2004/2005, if I remember correctly.

    Very nice machine, it's always served me well.

    Thank you,
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2014
  38. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    Welcome aboard, Chris!
     
  39. Audiophile

    Audiophile Rookie

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    Wow, that was fast! Thank you. :)

    I'll get a picture or two up soon.
     
  40. 10SDad

    10SDad Rookie

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    Good to have another member. Looking forward to your pics.
     
  41. gamerluke

    gamerluke Rookie

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    oops wrong thread
     
  42. BlxTennis

    BlxTennis Rookie

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    I got hold of a MS120 base to go with my LF MS200. Now I have another backup option. Stringing with MS200 definitely is faster.

    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
  43. 7zero

    7zero Rookie

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    I am about to make final decision on ML100 configuration. Can anyone explain me in simple way if Concorde option is something to buy or not. Pros/cons etc.
     
  44. BlxTennis

    BlxTennis Rookie

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    One obvious CON is the $79.95 that you have to pay. However, it may be worse it. What it doe allows the racquet to tilt at an angle so that strings pull around the throat area do not rub against the frame which will reduce some tension. You still have string being pulled at a little of angle on the grommet. I don't have the concorde system on my MS200. If it's easy to put it in, I would have done it.
     
  45. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I regret not getting the Concorde option. Without it, the strings rub severely on the throat of my frame when restringing. It harms the staring and the frame, while also making it hard to get a consistently accurate tension on the center mains.
     
  46. BlxTennis

    BlxTennis Rookie

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    You can always contact Stringway to add the concorde system. I am just not too confident about taking apart the base and put in the concorde myself.
     
  47. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I havent noticed my strings or frame being damaged at all personally.
     
  48. BlxTennis

    BlxTennis Rookie

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    Yeah me too. I string my main at 58lbs and a few times at 60lbs. Shouldn't damage string or frame.
     
  49. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I strung mostly between 45-63 lbs and have not damaged string or frame where string is tensioned over the frame. I just let the arm down slowly.

    Maybe use a business card between the string and frame if it bothers you but I don't think it is necessary.
     
  50. 7zero

    7zero Rookie

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    Thanks. It seems to me reasonable cost comparing to the price of the machine itself. I will order it shortly and send member request to you pals. :)
     

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