Success on second serve

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by krosero, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Credit to Craig O'Shannessy, it was his article.
     
    #51
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Connors in his loss to Becker at Queens Club ('87): 54.1% on first serve and 54.5% on second (Moose's count).

    So now we have Connors making the list 5 times, all in losses.

    the other 4 were:

    1975 AO (Newcombe)
    1978 Wimbledon (Borg)
    1984 RG (mac)
    1985 Wimbledon (curren)
     
    #52
  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Connors in his 6-4, 3-6, 6-0 win over Lendl, 1984 Tokyo Indoor final (Moose's count): made 61 of 75 first serves; had 61% success on first serve, 71% on second.
     
    #53
  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Makarova in yesterday's win over Serena had 70% on second serve and only 59% on first.
     
    #54
  5. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    #55
  6. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Yesterday at Indian Wells: Federer went 63% on first serve and 65% on second, in his win over Nadal.
     
    #56
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Great souvenirs... of Jimbo´s last big win vs Ivan...
     
    #57
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I can´t think of a best 2 nd serve than Newcombe, Gonzales and Mc Enroe...
     
    #58
  9. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    In the entire Djokovic-Nadal rivalry there have been a few instances, including today in Monte Carlo, in which a player had higher success on second serve than on first serve.

    Djokovic in his win in '07 in Miami - 64% on 1st serve, 75% on 2nd.

    Djokovic in his win in '08 in Cincinnati - 71% on 1st, 76% on 2nd.

    In their RG match in '08, which Nadal won, this happened to both men. Nadal was 66% on 1st and 70% on 2nd. Djokovic was 57% on 1st and 58% on 2nd.

    Djokovic in his win in '11 in Miami - 66% on 1st, 70% on 2nd.

    Djokovic in his loss today in Monte Carlo - 40% on 1st, 56% on 2nd. This one really stands out because the success on 1st serve is so low.

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=D643&oId=N409

    Just a note, I don't have stats for two of their matches: at the Olympics in '08 and in Davis Cup in '09.
     
    #59
  10. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    sampras , edberg , roddick, isner ?

    I wouldn't put mac up there .....
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
    #60
  11. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Sampras should ring a bell. I don't see how one can miss it if you've watched him played.
     
    #61
  12. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    don't see this posted, his numbers in '84 were 47 on 1st & 56 on 2nd
     
    #62
  13. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer in today's victory in Madrid over Ferrer: 86% on 1st serve and 90% on second.

    That's a huge % on second serve, even better than Borg's against Pecci. But again the totals were small: Federer went to second serve only 10 times, and won 9. Borg won 7 of 8.
     
    #63
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    "You are just as good a tennis player as your second serve is " (jack Kramer)
     
    #64
  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer did it again today. In his semifinal win over Tipsarevic, he went 75% on 1st serve and 80% on 2nd. This time the numbers were more significant: he went to second serve 15 times and won 12.

    But he had 3 double-faults, so he was 100% whenever he got the second serve in.
     
    #65
  16. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Serena vs Medina Garrigues in Rome today

    17/24 on 1st serve(71%)
    16/20 on 2nd(80%)
     
    #66
  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    So what does that say about power vs. kick?
     
    #67
  18. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I'm not sure. Stats for success on 1st and 2nd serve are not just about the serves, of course, but also about everything that the player does after serving. And what the receiver is doing plays a role as well. In general terms we can say that the power of a player's first serves won't always be enough to win him more points than he will get behind the kick in his second serves. But usually it will, because most aces and unreturned serves are still first serves; and most of the time players have higher success on 1st serve points.

    Not sure what can be said beyond that. Did you have something in mind?
     
    #68
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No, I didn´t.He belongs up there with the best ever second serves.
     
    #69
  20. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    In the 1980 Wimbledon final, per Moose:

    Evert won 22 of 52 points on 1st serve(42%)
    She won 9 of 18 on 2nd(50%)
     
    #70
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I recall the BBC boradcasters in the early 80´s saying that if Mc Enroe got 55%-60% of first serves in, he was unbeatable on fast grass.
     
    #71
  22. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Generally true, but he served at 63% in the Wimbledon final he lost to Borg.

    He served only 54% when he lost to Connors in '82.
     
    #72
  23. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    In the Federer-Agassi rivalry, there was only one time that a player had greater success on second serve than on first.

    2005 Dubai semi, Agassi was 45% on 1st serve and 52% on 2nd.

    Agassi lost 6-3, 6-1, the most one-sided score in their 11 matches.
     
    #73
  24. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    The TMC final in 2003 was "almost" as one-sided , 6-4,6-0,6-2 IIRC ...
     
    #74
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You mean, 33 yrs old Agassi?
     
    #75
  26. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer actually lost 7 games in that one (3, love, 4).

    But it was the only one of their matches in which Agassi never saw a break point. Here's Bud Collins:

    Agassi, who had held two match points while losing to Federer six days before - during the round-robin phase - had the full, 7500-seat stadium rocking on his behalf.

    But Agassi felt like a target because, "Roger is a target server, hitting the lines and corners", he said. Federer had 11 aces and four service winners in 13 serving games - and not exceptionally fast (200kmh his swiftest) but deadly accurate. His serve kept Agassi off balance, and his rippling and ripping backhand - flat, topped, and sliced - was a joy to watch skidding along the lines. Unless you were Agassi.​
     
    #76
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Well, we should know how high was the other guy´s %, like Borg in 1980.But, normally, a Mc Enroe or a Tanner serving in his mid 60% would be almost unbeatable on fast grass.Even if they didn´t break your serve, they´d still hold the advantage in each tie breaker.And serving at such % made them take their chances on the return of serve, as they were so confident in winning all of their serves, that alone would increase their chances to break your serve.
     
    #77
  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Borg served at 62%, Connors at 64%.

    Tanner in the '79 final served at 53%, but that was not particularly low for him. I'm not sure we know of any match in which he broke 60%.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
    #78
  29. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer-Roddick

    In the 24 matches that Federer and Roddick have played, Roddick has never had greater success on second serve than on first serve.

    Federer has, twice:

    2002 Basel - 79% on 1st, and 80% on 2nd
    2007 Masters Cup - 74% on 1st, 87% on 2nd
     
    #79
  30. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Incidentally Roddick has out-aced or tied Federer in aces in only 7 of their matches:

    2002 Basel (14-4)
    2003 Montreal (9-9)
    2005 Cincinnati (11-5)
    2006 Masters Cup (12-12)
    2007 Masters Cup (7-7)
    2008 Miami (17-7)
    2012 Miami (12-11)
     
    #80
  31. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yes, a 33 year old agassi who had won the AO that year, was ranked in the top 5 and was in wayyyyyy better form than your crush's best rival 35 year old Rosewall in 69 ... :)

    oh, not to forget a 41 year old Gonzales beating Laver ..... :twisted:
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
    #81
  32. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer-Murray

    In the 15 matches that Federer and Murray have played, neither player has ever had higher success on second serve than on first serve.

    It's interesting how Federer has out-aced Roddick in 14 of 21 matches, but he's out-aced Murray only 3 times:

    2006 Cincinnati (6-4)
    2008 Masters Cup (11-7)
    2010 AO final (11-10)

    Murray's success on 1st serve against Federer has been very high (partly due to the aces no doubt). In their '08 Dubai match he broke 90% on 1st serve success (something Federer hasn't done in any of their matches).

    And yet in their very next match -- the USO final -- Murray's success on 1st serve was a horrid 51%.
     
    #82
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Wasn´t it the year Agassi played that legend Di pasquale? or was it another legend, Schuettler?.The fact is AO fields were depleted.Oh¡ Rosewall was in bad shape in 69...in fact, one year older, he won the US Open and reached the Wimbleodn final...Gonzales at 43-44 beat Borg and Connors, so what if he beat laver for a while?
     
    #83
  34. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Actually Rosewall had a bad year in 1969. Tony Roche was Laver's top rival that year along with Newcombe and Rosewall. Roche could have had the second best year in tennis in 1969. He was fantastic that year.

    Old Pancho Gonzalez could beat anyone. He still had the great serve and on that alone he was tough but Gonzalez, pass age 40 could beat Laver, Ashe, Smith, Connors, Hoad, Emerson. Losing to Gonzalez in his early forties was nothing to be ashamed of.
     
    #84
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    oh¡¡ don´t let factual data bother ABMK´s colourful and exotic opinions...
     
    #85
  36. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    no, they weren't...

    the roddick-el ayanoui match in the QF was one of the best matches of all time ..

    fed-nalby had a good , but up and down match ....

    you had hewitt and ferreria in the mix as well ...

    not a very strong AO, but not a depleted one either ...

    yes, rosewall had relatively bad years in 67 and 69 ... coincidence that laver had his best years then , I think not ... :)

    and agassi at 33 years of age was playing much much better than gonzales at 40-41 years of age ... federer won all matches vs agassi since 2003 and laver lost a few vs gonzales after gonzales turned 37+ and was worse off than agassi at 33-35 ... go figure ..
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
    #86
  37. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I actually brought up gonzales because the clueless kiki mentioned agassi's age when I talked about the beatdown fed gave him in the TMC 2003 F ...

    fact is agassi at age 33 was still playing excellent tennis, far better than gonzales at age 40+ ...

    yet kiki has the nerve to bring up agassi's age when I talked about that impressive beatdown and then goes and hides when someone points out that gonzales at age 40+ beat laver .....

    I don't actually think its "shameful" to lose once in a while to an all time great ... even if the all time great is old ..
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
    #87
  38. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    my opinions are based on facts ..

    federer beat agassi every time they faced each other since 2003

    gonzales at 37+ beat laver multiple times ...

    Deal with it ..:twisted:
     
    #88
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Roddick-El Aynaoui¡¡¡ Ferreira¡¡¡ Hewitt¡¡¡ just some clues

    Roddick is a crappy one timer who just won against little crap Ferrero with all crowds behind me at home.

    El Aynaoui, if he gets to know you, he´ll be in debt with you forever since nobody else than you would even remember him

    Ferreira, in my dictionary is a sinonym for "Journeymanship" ( middle to high class though)

    Hewitt, had to play against ALL TIMER Nalbandian and old, tired and unmotivated Sampras to win a couple of majors in the weakest era of modern times.I still wonder how a bulldog baseliner like him has even be allowed to play under the glorious flag of Australia....

    Now, Rosewall miraculously recovered old form a year later, when he was older than in 1969 and yet beat Roche at the USO F ( same Laver, curiously did one year before)
     
    #89
  40. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    And what does anything of this have to do with the topic of the thread? Aren't there other threads to do this in?
     
    #90
  41. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    you are right, I've replied in the other thread ...Greatest Ground Game of all time
     
    #91
  42. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    nadal-monaco

    nadal 31-45 1st serve(69%)
    15-20 2nd(75%)

    really not enjoying the constant bickering between kiki & abmk in so many threads in this section, esp when they often have nothing to do with thread topic.
     
    #92
  43. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer's success on 1st-serve points in today's loss to Djokovic was just 56%, lower than it has been in any match in their rivalry. It has been higher even in losses that were more one-sided than today's -- like their Dubai final last year (6-3, 6-3 to Novak).

    When Federer lost in straights to Djokovic at the AO in '08, he won 70% of his points on 1st serve. When he lost to him in straights again at the AO last year, he was up at 72%.

    Today in the second set, Federer dropped to 40% success on 1st serve (46% on second).
     
    #93
  44. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer served 9 aces today, compared to 18 when he beat Djokovic last year. His highest ace count against Djokovic is 20, in the 2008 USO semi.

    When they went five sets at the USO in 2010, he served 11 aces. When they went five sets again at last year's USO, he served 12.
     
    #94
  45. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Federer-Raonic Halle

    Federer
    1st serve pts won 53-65(82%)
    2nd serve pts won 24-29(83%)
     
    #95
  46. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Djokovic vs Harrison today

    76 1st serve
    82 2nd serve
     
    #96
  47. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Serena vs Zheng

    Serena
    80% 1st serve
    84% 2nd serve
     
    #97
  48. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Seppi vs Young

    Seppi
    75% 1st serve
    83% 2nd serve
     
    #98
  49. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Tsonga vs Bellucci

    Bellucci
    67% 1st serve
    72% 2nd serve
     
    #99
  50. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Serena-Zvonareva

    Zvonareva
    27% 1st serve
    50% 2nd serve
     

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