Ten and Under Tennis (TAUT) USTA's new endeavor?

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by bdudaday, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. bdudaday

    bdudaday New User

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    Ten and Under Tennis is the USTA's new system of tennis with a smaller court, shorter net, low pressure ball aimed at having kids succeed at a younger age. A similar system is used in other countries which have more a successful player development program.

    Tennis Insiders posted a great interview with Kurt Kamperman, the USTA's CEO of Community Tennis.
    http://tennisinsiders.com/?post_type=featured_story&p=407

    Do you think they are implementing this correctly and will it shoot the US back to the top of the tennis world?
     
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  2. seminoleG

    seminoleG Semi-Pro

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    You can search mt many post on QuickStart, Mini Tennis, TAUT, etc, etc.

    My 9 year old is considered a Gap kid, forced to play 12s if we want regulation. I have a friend with a 10 year old who now is starting to see time an effort to make jump to regulation yellow from TAUT. I've said we will see who "really" wants to play tennis becuase TAUT is so different than Regular tennis.

    Go watch a pee wee baseball game for 10s, or soccer it looks like the real sport. The 10U tournaments I've seen looks nothing like tennis.

    That speaks volumes to how it's being implemented. It may be a great program but that same coach that couldn't hand feed and teach with old regulation balls, can't teach with 10U equipment.

    It shows.
     
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  3. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    Yes, as SeminoleG points out - use the search - we have been discussing, debating, arguing, and getting banned (who said that?) over Quickstart or 10 and Under Tennis here for quite some time.

    I'll share a funny story: A 10 and Under tourney was going on at a club I was playing at a couple weeks ago. After my hit I pulled up to a court to watch a bit. Two moms were hunkered in their beach chairs hanging on every point. Two dads were standing in back talking about the "merits" of how TAUT teaches kids to "use angles", "construct points" and "use proper strokes" as if quoting right from the marketing. So, the two boys playing in front of me never moved more than a step or two to one side, had abbreviated "ping-pong" technique, hit the ball down the middle with no spin, about 10 ft high and looked quite bored. Sure they had long rallies, but there was no "tennis" going on. The parents didn't have a clue.
     
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  4. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    My son was playing in a B14 doubles match next to a QuickStart singles match. What was ridiculous about it was that the two boys who were playing the QS were bigger than all 4 boys playing in the B14 doubles. There would be no issue for these QS boys to hit regulation tennis balls on a regulation court. The one size fits all mentality is what is hard to swallow. While it would not affect me because my kids are past 10 years of age, it does affect many if the kids that train at the same facility who are younger than 10 but have the ability to hit with regulation balls and court. And the USTA just doesn't care.
     
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  5. emarkhans

    emarkhans New User

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    Perhaps a different opinion:

    My son's 7 and has played red ball 8U and orange ball 10U and the red ball matches look a lot more like tennis than the orange ball games. And there's no question he looks and hits like an actual tennis player more in the red ball games. He isn't ready to play talented 10Us, but a lot of parents stick their 8 year olds in 10Us just because they think they have to "play up" and the games are kind of ridiculous. A lot of points are short serve, receiver's stuck at net, server hits ball over receiver's head, point. That's not tennis.

    I think the point of Quickstart is that everything is proportion to size and that shows in the red ball matches. In those, my son swings the racquet correctly from both sides, hits it hard, hits winners, and hits aces on his serve. He looks like a good tennis player shrunk to size.

    In the orange ball matches, he and the other kids "playing up" alter their swing and shots because of the bigger court and about 1 in 10 shots resemble anything a bigger kid would do. What's the point in that?
     
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  6. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    Quantity doesn't breed quality. TAUT should work very well to increase participation in tennis and help tennis compete better with other sports for the young athlete. This doesn't mean that the US will perform better in the creation of top tennis professionals. If we don't recruit our BEST athletes we won't have top players. We need to create a process of recruitment of non-tennis playing youngsters that are top level athletes, tall, bright with good parents and train them to be tennis champions-think TSonga and Monfils!
     
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  7. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    What is great about the interview?

    What is great about the interview?
     
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  8. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Next time anyone goes to Nick Bollli's place take some pics or video some of IMG"s quick start program ,,,I couldn't find it .
     
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  9. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Heard Wayne Bryan and Pat Mac had a lovely dance at the quick start tour last week here in So.Cal anyone have it on video .

    Heard Pat said the coaching here in the USA was sub-standard and Wayne said different ,heard it was quite the debate.
     
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  10. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Wayne coaches team tennis.
     
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  11. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Watching quickstart is worse than watching grass grow!!!!!!Mandating for the 10s was a HORRIBLE idea and making the 12s level 4 and 5 tournaments green dot ball was also a TERRIBLE idea.It promotes LAZY footwork and it takes away kids weapons that actually hit the ball.They force you to play that crap so that you can get your ranking up so you can get into level1,2,3 tournaments.My daughter has played 3 level 4 12s tournaments in the last 5 weeks in order to make sure her ranking is high enough to get into the qualifying.She just turned 10 and has won all 3 easy.GREEN DOT BALLS ARE NOT GOOD FOR TENNIS AT 12 YEARS OLD!!!!They make kids lazy and let them get away with terrible technique.Im just glad my daughter has got her ranking up high enough that now we no longer have to play that mess.
     
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  12. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    SORRY IM BEING SO NEGATIVE.Green dot balls are a great teaching tool for kids getting into tennis.The problem is the mandates.I use the green dots with my six year old son but in the next few weeks we will be on regulation balls and say bye bye to the green dots.
     
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  13. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Lower bouncing balls?

    A quote from
    http://tennisinsiders.com/?post_type...ed_story&p=407
    "The use of shorter racquets and slower/lower bouncing balls, etc. had become just “training wheel tennis”,"

    Question:
    Why lower bouncing balls are better for tournaments?
     
    #13
  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Watched a green ball match yesterday. Ball speeds were nicely limited to the capabilities of the players, resulting in solid rallies and gradual point construction.
     
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  15. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    That must be a regional thing. I don't think using green balls for level 4 and 5 is a national requirement. The only tournaments that use yellow balls here are the 10's.
     
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  16. topspinrj

    topspinrj New User

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    Watched some 10&Under Alta Playoff Girls Matches this past weekend. Was absolutely not looking like tennis. The girls would run up push the ball over the net and run back.
     
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  17. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Have you seen this videoclip?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti7DOcRjwG4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Why do you think the 10&under match you saw is nowhere close to this video?

    Coaching was not right or kids were not good?

    Kids competing even when not mastering basic technique yet?

    Or etc. etc.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2012
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  18. topspinrj

    topspinrj New User

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    So that is a great video. I am sure USTA has plenty of those videos too. I have daughters that have and are playing TAUT at the highest level of USTA and I can tell you none of the matches look like that. The slow ball and short court has made it so easy for kids to get away with bad forms. My oldest got bored after winning the state tournament and moved onto 12U (now 10). I am not saying it isn't a good learning program for young kids but if USTA thinks it is going to increase champions using it, I highly doubt that.
     
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  19. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    It is simply a good way to introduce tennis to small kids. Even some good 8 year olds are limited by the low bouncing ball, so mandating 10 and unders is going to make these kids play 12s, which will in turn make 11and 12 year olds play 14s. This will weaken the lower age groups. Need a regular open 10s and a green dot 10s.
     
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  20. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I agreed with many posters here and in previous thread that QuickStart/TAUT progressive tennis is a good tool to teach young kids tennis and attract a lot more children/parents to this sport.

    In an ideal scenario, a child with a right coach can be taught proper fundamentals, tactics, how to play the game and compete......progressing to the next....and next step....and regulation ball according to an individual progress.

    Each child is different and I agree that mandate age can slow down the progression of a child or even could be a turn off to a child and parents.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
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  21. emarkhans

    emarkhans New User

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    I guess I still don't understand what these limits are. That a shot hit by a good 10 year old with a green ball isn't a winner? A lot of those shots with regulation balls are only winners because the kid on the other side of the net is too small for the balls and the court. They won't be winners when the kids grow into the courts and the balls.

    For me, it comes down to wanting my kid to hit as many shots at 7 the way he'll hit them at 16. He could probably cover a bigger court than the red ball size court, but he can't cover an orange ball court and winds up taking swings that aren't really the way he hits a tennis ball -- and that itself could cause bad habits.

    I haven't really seen any 7 or 8 year olds who can cover an orange ball size court effectively and I think their parents are kidding themselves if they think winning points now with sloppy form will translated into anything significant later.
     
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  22. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I had seen an 8 year old who won several matches at a level 1 Boys-Girls 12national championship. Also had seen many efficient 7-8 years olds with GREAT FOOTWORK and technique playing and winning matches using regulation balls and full courts.

    The point is the progression should be treated individually. Kids come in different sizes, talent, footwork, hand-eye coordination, mental maturity, etc.

    Coaches also varies in their abilities and teaching methods to teach kids.

    That kid I saw might be a slam contender one day. Having that kid playing an orange ball tourn. will be a disservice.
     
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  23. emarkhans

    emarkhans New User

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    In what way is it a disservice? Where's the harm in playing orange ball, and where's the advantage to playing regulation ball?

    In the NYC area (Sportime McEnroe and U10/U8 tournaments) I see 9 year olds who are getting to the point of maintaining good form with regulation equipment, but few if any 7-8 year olds. I see parents maybe thinking they are, and wanting to believe they are, but that's a different story.

    I see 7 year olds who can do drills well with regulation equipment (my son's one of them and all his lessons are with 26" racquet and yellow balls) and who can rally pretty well even with the adult teachers, but he and really all his peers break down into something pretty non-tennis like over time when they play against each other.

    When he wins points in red ball, he wins almost all of them for tennis reasons that (at least I think) will carry over into adulthood; when he wins points in regulation lesson ball, it's usually for reasons I don't think will. I far prefer the former and am trying not to put a lot of stock in the latter.
     
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  24. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I am not talking about MY kids or YOUR kids. (My kids are beyond those ages. My younger one had gone through progressive ball system before mandatory). I told you my experience of watching junior tennis matches for the past 10 years and what I had seen talented, properly taught 7-8 years old could do.

    That 8 year old kid I saw in the 12 year old USTA national championship is way beyond 60 court tournament match skills. Might have got into that national tournament with a wild card, I am not sure.

    If that kid was mandated to compete in only the 10s sectional championship 60 ft. court, I bet he/she would quit and go try and excel in other sports. That kid needs appropiate competition for his/her skill level.

    Besides talent, properly taught....do you know some kids (not mine) hit balls since they were 18-24 months old. That 8 year old could have already been trained for years....I don't know.

    If your child is supersmart and already mastered/passed fourth grade level classes, will you let him/her re-take 2nd grade(age level) classes again. Will a child get bored or even hate school?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
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  25. emarkhans

    emarkhans New User

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    Yeah, I should probably just bite the bullet and bag the red/orange ball tourneys.

    As a parent with a tennis kid, it's trial and error and you don't know if you've hit "error" until it's too late.
     
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  26. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I did not say that the red/orange ball tourneys were bad.

    Each kid, each situation is different. A kid should be allowed to compete against a kid with comparable skill level (to keep progressing and keep his/her interest in tennis), not just according to mandated age type tourneys.

    A (competent and ethical) coach you pay should be able to help decide when is the right time to move up, without being biased.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
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  27. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    Like that statement, so true.
     
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  28. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    The fact that you are having such a good debate about 7 and 8 year olds leads to the inadequacy of the balls for strong 9 and 10 year olds.
     
    #28
  29. Staidhup

    Staidhup New User

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    I for the life of me can't understand the point and have to agree with other posters. I can see it up to lets say 7, but after that it simply takes the importance of foot work, stroke development, and shot selection out of the game. Are they doing this in Europe and Asia as well?
     
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  30. LMK5

    LMK5 New User

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    Topspin optional

    I've watched quite a few green ball matches recently in the 10U division. The one thing that caught my eye was that there is no imperative that the kids hit with topspin. Time and time again I would see a kid bash the ball and my mind immediately said that one's going out, but no, it lands well inside the court. Lots of forgiveness with those balls.

    The problem here is that these kids aren't compelled to brush up the back of the ball. Delaying this very basic element of the game cannot be good for any player. It will be interesting to see how these kids adjust when confronted with a real tennis ball and now must learn to control it at age 11. How will they be able to compete with kids who stuck with the regulation ball?

    Once again, the fatal flaw in this ten-and-under debacle is that it is age-based rather than skill-based. It is akin to making an accomplished bicyclist put the training wheels back on merely because of his/her age.
     
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  31. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    If you are an advanced 10 and under, the format can be functionally utilized to develop forward movement skills and volleying to end points. Kids motivated to develop their skills will find ways to improve within the formats provided. I have persuaded my charge who just turned 10 and competes 12s boys open, that he can learn to chip and charge and serve/volley/move forward at orange and green dot events. He buys in, sees improvement, process continues/moves forward.
    Make wine, not whine.
     
    #31
  32. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    I can safely say, I have been to more green ball tournaments than anyone in the US. I have seen Canadian QS Veteran who have been on QS age 2 and have competed with orange and green. They are now fast top 10 players in the 12's with perfect strokes and are doing very well if not better than regulation players. I have seen the results with my own eyes. Their parents said they wished they stayed more on green.
     
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  33. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    If the've been playing since 2, they better be doing well in 10s and 12s regardless of QS or not, or something is terribly wrong.

    If they are still at the top at 14s/16s, then that might say something as other kids would have had a chance to catch up.
     
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  34. t135

    t135 Semi-Pro

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    I watched a 10u tournament the other day. 7,8,9 year olds playing. Beginners battling it out for the title in a one set round robin format. I have to say it was pretty cool seeing the kids have fun swatting the ball back and forth. And they were definitely swatting it.

    But it was tennis for sure. A little girl took the big trophy home. If this is what it takes to inspire kids to hit the fuzzy ball instead of little league and gymnastics then, I'm buying in to the idea. Those kids were having fun playing tennis. Never would have happened on a full court with regular balls.
     
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  35. ndtennisfan

    ndtennisfan New User

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    My daughter is 8 and has been playing for a few years ... has played both QS (orange/green ball) and regulation. While she wouldn't be competitive with a good 11/12 year old simply because of physical size, she loves to compete and play with regular ball when we play. I am beginning to feel that this is the best way to help her learn the game ... playing 'easier' with regulation, rather than full speed with orange.

    Orange ball tennis seems to me to be quite a bit like learning how to throw a nerf football vs. a smaller regulation ball. It's not easy to master a nerf ball ... you have to slow down your mechanics, etc. - and it doesn't necessarily translate to a good mature throwing motion. Orange ball is good for a bit - but if kids are ready to move up, I think it's important to let them and not hold them back. There are quite a few jr. coaches with a vested interest in TAUT who may not be willing to let that happen.
     
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  36. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Use the quickstart balls to teach young kids,but get them hitting regulation balls with a 27 inch racket as soon as possible.Tennis is a game of movement,and the sooner you get them tracking regulation balls the better.If you want your child to be great then at 8,9,or 10 he or she needs to be playing on a full size court with regulation balls and rackets.Those years are critical for kids development.Not wasting those years playing on a small court with soft balls and abbreviated strokes.
     
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  37. ndtennisfan

    ndtennisfan New User

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    agreed. I do struggle with the racquet though. she's doing fine with the 25" and I'm always afraid something heavier is going to hurt her arm. height-wise she's ready, but seems like a year or so would allow her to have better strength to use one. Back in the day most of us learned how to play with a full-size racquet ... but I think that was mainly b/c there weren't a lot of lighter smaller options available. Still have my T2000 in the garage, but I wouldn't wish that on her! :)
     
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  38. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    My 6 year old was using the Pure Drive 26 and it was perfect for him.The problem is when using regulation balls.If your daughter is hitting with regulation balls she needs the 27 in racket as soon as possible.A 25 inch racket is just not gonna get it done hitting against regulation balls.I promise it wont take any time at all to adjust to a 27.It will actually do much less harm to her arm than a 25 inch racket will.
     
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  39. ndtennisfan

    ndtennisfan New User

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    good advice, I hadn't thought about that. Not to hijack this post, but did you go head heavy? what weight racquet? b/c I let her use my Babolat pure drive 27" (~11oz) and it was too heavy.

    I suppose this all goes to TAUT at some level ... knowing when to wean kids away from mini tennis. Kids can look fantastic hitting with small racquets and the orange ball - but moving up to regulation brings a lot of other considerations with it that not all of us (myself included) have thought about.
     
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  40. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Why would you go head heavy?

    Why would you go head heavy?
     
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  41. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    Ten and Under Tennis will succeed. Also, will defeat hijack

    10 and under will succeed. Especially at the CTA (community tennis association) level. May not work for clubs or country club tennis as these type of associations tend to remain provincial until membership death/bankruptcy.

    More kids will learn to play sounder tennis sooner. More kids will catch the bug, tennis will grow from urban areas and more better players will emerge.

    What people really don't want to get into, is that the best of the crop will be the children of the kids that started with 10 and under.

    I'm 45 with kids. I'm a lifer, who will see this initiative to success.
     
    #41
  42. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    Preach on my brother. Notice what is happening to the board...

    positivity and optimism is taking over re ROG, 10 and under.
     
    #42
  43. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    Don't switch the racket. Stay with the 25, then 26 and 26.5 or 26.8...

    if you can find it. Need help? Hit me up. I vehemently disagree with handing out 27 inchers to learners, regardless of skill,. The racquet should fit the body of the player.

    If the player holds the racquet with playing hand at side and it touches the ground, it is too long for your competitive learner.

    Let the arguments commence once more. I'm right. The only legit argument against, is "my kid, my rules." To which I will not engage.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
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  44. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    No way! Is she willing 85% of her matches?...

    Look, I have a 10 year old who plays 12s open. I also put him in green dot tournaments to work on serve and volley, chip and charge. He totally understands why: because he want to improve everyday until he is world class.

    Be innovative, don't imitate. Talk to your charge about development. Ask if they want to try something different, strategy, style of play in the developmental format. Take advantage of the changes. Use them to YOUR family's tennis advantage.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
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  45. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    if a kid is a hustler then they hustle using any ball, if a kid is lazy they are lazy with any ball, no ball is going to make your kid run faster. 99% of all the jr kids that are training with regulation are ending up using balls that are flat and similar to a true new green dot in the end. My HS tennis team went through a dozen cases in three months where all of the balls went flat in no time. Unless your program is rich and you are rich by opening a case of new reg ball every time you go out and train, you are only training with USED FLAT BALLS THAT ARE GREEN DOT in no time.

    So we train more than %75 of the time with very used regulations balls yet when we go out and play a match it is with A NEW CAN OF BALLS WHICH TOTALY CHANGES THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE GAME. WHY NOT HAVE SOME TOURNAMENTS WITH SUCH A USED REGULATION BALL THAT WE TRAIN WITH %75 OF THE TIME? IS IT A CRIME FOR JR DEVELOPMENT?

    We tennis players are very fickle and creatures of habit we do not like change. IF we go from indoor to outdoors and hard courts to hartru, we complain then get used to it. We go through a dozen of different types of regulation balls that all play different and complain then get used to it.

    What USTA is trying ( easier said than done ) to do with these green dot ball tournaments is provide a level of uniformity and sameness and level the playing fields even for just a little while.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2012
    #45
  46. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    So, really what you are advocating is to use old regulation - it's cheaper. Green dot balls are more expensive and go flat also, so you end up with orange?!:)
     
    #46
  47. paulmaben

    paulmaben Rookie

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    I have 9 year old triplets who have been playing quickstart orange ball since feb. L5/L4/L3. I am a former D1 player and tennis teacher. I'm not sure where the attitude of TAUT not being "real tennis" comes from. Sure the L5's are just pushing the ball in the court but they at least can have a rally of up to 5 shots sometimes. I remember playing awful kids in the 12's when I was a junior who played much worse. Where they better off because they were playing with regulation balls on a regulation court? I don't think so. I'm not a USTA cool-aid drinker by any means but I have been seeing some really positive things going on with my kids' games in 6 months.
    1) rally length has increased exponentially.
    Some of the matches have been in the 1.5 hour range. Lots of Ads, some pressure.
    2) my kids can hit every shot right now and have some rudimentary strategy
    3) Most of novice events are round robin. That means sometimes four matches in a weekend.
    4) All the tourneys they play in have either FMLC or FILC which means even in a level 3 they are getting 2 matches and more likely three.

    They are playing "real tennis". They are learning sportsmanship, discipline, patience, etc.

    My attitude is if you are in the 1% don't bother with quickstart. If you feel that a green dot is "beneath you". Don't bother. I just don't see how this initiative can hurt kids.
     
    #47

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