Ten Greatest Of Allll Times

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by halbrikj, Jan 30, 2014.

  1. halbrikj

    halbrikj Rookie

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    After watching footage of Don Budge, McEnroe remarked, "I would've beaten this guy 6-0 6-0 6-0." I don't know about 0,0, and 0, but I doubt either Tilden or Budge would've been able to win more than 2 or 3 games.
     
    #51
  2. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Did you know, that McEnroe turned his rivalry with Lendl around in 1983, when he followed the tips of Don Budge at Philadelphia? Would he listen to a guy, whom he would beat love and love.
     
    #52
  3. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    You are a sad little man, stalking me across this board.

    Go back to stroking your cat.
     
    #53
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    hahaha.Yes, Patricio Cornejo discovered the Good Hope Cape before Magallanes did.it was a split secret between Spain and Portugal
     
    #54
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    90's Clay. You made reasonable lists.
     
    #55
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    poofytail, Bud Collins, Peter Rowley, Robert Geist...
     
    #56
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    90's Clay, Of course Gonzalez keeps his 7 big world tour wins. Believe me: Rosewall has a record comparable to Rod's and Pancho's.
     
    #57
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    ARFED, A wonder has happened: I agree with you!
     
    #58
  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Federer fan, Learn history!
     
    #59
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, it's possible.

    Tilden would probably beat Federer with his (Bill's) better strokes and better brain...
     
    #60
  11. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    halbrikj, McEnroe's intellectual powers are not as great as his playing powers...
     
    #61
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    You plead for beating an animal? Being yourself a bird?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
    #62
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    kiki, And he lived long enough to form an excellent doubles formation with Jaime Fillol...
     
    #63
  14. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Old tech to modern tech, yeah, no duh.

    But McEnroe also claims that Nadal has the greatest volleys ever. Don't listen to everything he says.
     
    #64
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    M D, McEnroe is stupid in belitteling old giants. I contradict him also regarding the Nadal volleys. But at least we can say that Rafa has a better volley than Roger...
     
    #65
  16. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    I disagree. Rafa may have better statistics, but that's because he's far more cautious with net approaches (perhaps he's smarter at approaching, or he's more defensive; that's a separate debate). Fed is able to volley more effectively, and won a slam S&Ving--which Rafa could never do. Roger approaches the net far more, and thus gets burned more often.
     
    #66
  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    judging who´s volley is better, rafa´s or roger´s is like judging if Mc Donalds or Burguer King have the best variety of cheese.Yes, someone has to have it better than the other but...
     
    #67
  18. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    BobbyOne,

    Stroking does not mean beating.
     
    #68
  19. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    A few posters, including one that BobbyOne respects (doesn't immediately insult him during a disagreement), have posted many statistics showing that Federer is a better volleyer than Nadal. BobbyOne will eventually agree with the facts, but will quickly "forget" until someone goes through the whole painful process again.

    You persist in a hopeless endeavor, Phoenix.
     
    #69
  20. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    I hope you're not implying I did insult him?
     
    #70
  21. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Oh no, sorry. I meant that BobbyOne tends to not insult krosero, who is the only poster who can really get Bobby to back off the Federer hate, even though it doesn't last long.

    Check out some net stats for matches between Federer and Nadal. Federer tends to come in more, and still win a higher percentage most of the time. This, of course, against the "GOAT passer" Rafa. ;)

     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
    #71
  22. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Oh, gotcha.

    Well, I mean, I've spent so long in GPP, Bobby's Fed Hate seems like love to me :lol:
     
    #72
  23. Indio

    Indio Semi-Pro

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    It's time someone called BS on this "majors" nonsense from the pre-open era. Let 1956 be an example. The following are the "majors" winners of that year:

    Hoad: 3 amateur majors
    Gonzales: 2 pro majors
    Rosewall: 1 amateur major
    Trabert: 1 pro major

    That's seven "majors" to be had in one year, not all available to one player, of course, but nevertheless seven titles to be added to various players' totals and all won in split-field circumstances.

    It's amazing that some people consider these to be of the same value as those won in the Open era.
    To win Wembley that year, Gonzales had to overcome a draw of 12 players. He had a bye in the 1st round, therefore playing only three rounds to take the title.
    The year's Wimbledon, won by Hoad, remarkably included 32 players from the UK in the men's singles draw. I shouldn't have to explain what that means, should I?
     
    #73
  24. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Right, so get rid of Rosewall's 4 amateur majors, and you have him at 19 majors.

    Your point?
     
    #74
  25. Indio

    Indio Semi-Pro

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    My point is fairly obvious, isn't it? Re-read the post.
     
    #75
  26. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    As I said, discount amateur slams.

    Pro slams were still pretty big back then. Don't discount them.
     
    #76
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    what do you know of Rosewall, son?
     
    #77
  28. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Not as much as you. Just what I could learn from reading wikipedia and TW :oops: and watching some old matches on YouTube :(

    But from what I've "read" (can't say I've picked up books on it, but, yeah), he started off as a CC specialist in the back court; had to learn to S&V if he wanted to compete with the best, and subsequently became one of the best S&Vers in the tour at the time; possessed a serve slower than most women's, but more accurate than almost everyone out there (Rod Laver complained about him being able to hit a dead spot the size of a dime, right?); his slice backhand was one of the best in history, constantly troubling Laver (who also complained you needed a shovel to deal with it). Rosewall had great footwork, won 15 pro slams (a record), and was a natural lefty taught to play righty.

    Want more? :)
     
    #78
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Phoenix, Sorry that my English is not that good but I fear also been stroken is not good for any animal...
     
    #79
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    NDQ, I do respect krosero because he always stays serious, unlike you and Phoenix1983...

    I'm ready to improve my English but NDQ and 1983 are not ready to improve their behaviour. That's the problem!
     
    #80
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    NDQ: Dear lady, why do you believe that I hate Federer? I even don't hate those who exaggerate the exploits of the second best player of a small country!
     
    #81
  32. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Sort of. It's debatable.

    Rosewall played at a high level for 20 or so years. However he was a clear cut number one in fewer years than either Gonzales and Laver.

    Rosewall seemed good for about a major a year and was, in all fairness, extremely dominant in at least two years. However Gonzales and Laver seemed to ultimately outdo him.
     
    #82
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks. At least I respect Roger more than his worshippers respect Rafa's greatness...
     
    #83
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Indio, No expert has ever claimed that the old majors are of the same value as the modern majors are. But at least the pro majors were big things. I'm not sure if a Federer would have reached the 1964 Wembley final.
     
    #84
  35. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Good. I mean, I never really gathered that you hated Fed, but I wasn't sure if I was desensitized ;)
     
    #85
  36. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    ^This

    10char
     
    #86
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Manus Domini, most of this is correct. But two corrections: Rosewall did not start as a CC specialist. His first major title was the Australian Championship on grass. Two years before, at mere 16, he won his first tournament, also on grass.

    Don't insult Muscles regarding his serve! Having such a slow serve you never win 23 majors!!
     
    #87
  38. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    It doesn't really matter whether those "majors" have the same value as grand slam tournaments. Do not fall into the trap of discussing this plain strawman.

    Equating contemporary and old majors isn't necessary when comparing 60s and 00s players. One can simply say that Rosewall was the world's #1 player in X years and the world's #2 player in Y years and then compare on this basis.

    The majors are just there for context. In terms of pure workload, these guys were playing more than a hundred matches a year.
     
    #88
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    CyBorg, Muscles leads 10:7 against the Rocket in big events.
     
    #89
  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    Manus Domini,

    Thanks. I don't hate Federer at all but I believe he is overrated by many.
     
    #90
  41. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Which big events, if you don't mind being more specific? It's okay if you don't; might be a lot of work to dig that up.

    What I know, and my books are not at hand, is that it took Laver about a year to overtake Rosewall after a year of adapting to the pro game. Then after 1970 or so, Rosewall seemed to do better in bigger events, although probably neither of them were true #1s by that time.
     
    #91
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    M D, my English is rather bad. Therefore I don't know if you agree or disagree...
     
    #92
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    CyBorg: They were serious majors, not "majors". The old pros had a much tougher schedule than the modern players.

    The old majors are a good measure to judge the old greats in comparison to the recent and current greats.
     
    #93
  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne G.O.A.T.

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    CyBorg: Those 17 encounters comprise the Grand Slam tournaments, the Pro GS tournaments, the WCT finals at Dallas and the old Masters event.
     
    #94
  45. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    I know they were serious. My point is simply that there is no need for you to compare players across time based on these majors.

    Someone will rightly point out that those majors did not have large draws and thus question the validity of the comparison.

    We know that Rosewall dominated and we know that he did it for a long time. The majors only tell us the extent to which he dominated his peers, not the extent to which he compares for Federer (numerically).
     
    #95
  46. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Okay, and my point remains. Was Laver not superior to Rosewall from 1964 to 1969?

    Yes, we know that Kenny beat Rod in those Dallas WCT matches, but this speaks more to Rosewall's superior longevity than his dominance.
     
    #96
  47. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Rosewall was only the game's clear #1 in the early 60s. 1962 and 1963 were especially productive. He won arguably 7 of the 8 majors at the time (French twice, Wembley twice, US Pro, Italian Pro, Stockholm Pro).

    Never quite so dominant before or since.

    Nothing to be ashamed of, of course. I would probably acknowledge that Rosewall is in the same conversation as those other names (Laver, Gonzales). However, he was normally playing second fiddle to Gonzo and Rod - save for this transitional era.
     
    #97
  48. KineticChain

    KineticChain Hall of Fame

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    what a new and fabulous concept for a thread.

    0/10
     
    #98
  49. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Unimaginably original.
     
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  50. halbrikj

    halbrikj Rookie

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    Yet you opened it...:???:
     

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