Tennis Channel:Paul Goldstein GOAT jorneyman

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by jdubbs, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Looking at his record, he had some impressive wins, including Rafter and even Djokovic at the Australian. Good guy, too!
     
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  2. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    What about Brad Gilbert, Fabrice Santoro and Vincent Spadea?
     
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  3. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    ^ Maybe I'm being too generous but I wouldn't call Santoro a journeyman.
     
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  4. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    What's the definition of a journeyman?
     
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  5. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Someone who is good enough to make the tour and have a long career, but not get to the second week of slams typically.
     
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  6. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Brad Gilbert was #4 in the world. Far above a journeyman by whatever definition you choose.
     
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  7. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    well Santoro's only better results in slams than a 4th round is the 2006 AO. His record is also just on the average mark, barely positive. Journeyman to me.
     
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  8. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Yeah but Santoro had a number of wins against quality competition. giant killer frustrating the heck out of most players. Like losing to a tennis coach.
     
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  9. comeback

    comeback Professional

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    "Journeyman" has to be one of the stupidest adjectives of all time used liberally by the broadcasting McEnroe's in the 90's until someone probably told them how ridiculous they sound.. .It implies that a professional tennis player consistently ranked between#30-60 is somehow a "second rate" player.. The #30+ best players in basketball, baseball and football make MILLIONS and are never called journeyman..
     
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  10. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    A journeyman is someone who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. To become a master, a journeyman has to submit a master work piece to a guild for evaluation and be admitted to the guild as a master. (Wikipedia)

    jour·ney·man [jur-nee-muhn] Show IPA
    noun, plural jour·ney·men.
    1.
    a person who has served an apprenticeship at a trade or handicraft and is certified to work at it assisting or under another person.
    2.
    any experienced, competent but routine worker or performer.
    3.
    a person hired to do work for another, usually for a day at a time.
    (dictionary.com)
     
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  11. big ted

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    i dont think anyone with a top 20 ranking can be called a journeyman
     
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  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Tennis journeymen are better off than many office ones
     
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  13. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I would say if you have ever made a Grand Slam quarter-final, you are not a journeyman.

    I hadn't realised Santoro only ever made one, but nevertheless, that still means he is no journeyman.

    Mind you, Paradorn Srichaphan never made a slam quarter-final and I'm not sure I'd call him a journeyman either...
     
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  14. big ted

    big ted Hall of Fame

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    journeyman would probably have a match record of less than .500 with no tournament titles so that would exclude srichaphan, santoro, and definitely gilbert. even vince spadea may not even be considered a journeyman, he won one title and made $5M in prize money
     
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  15. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    Problem is, there's no set definition when it comes to tennis journeyman. Not everyone agrees, so the discussion is stilted to start with.

    To me, a journeyman is someone who has done well enough actually make a living playing tennis, but has never really "broken through" consistently. But, then what does "broken through" mean? A good Slam run, a ranking good enough to gain auto entry into many (even if not all) tournaments, a tournament win (even if a small one). But, even then, if a player achieves one of these things on one occasion and then goes away, I think he's still a journeyman.

    Donald Young had a little run where me made USO fourth round, made some 250 and 500 semis and finals, got to 40ish in the rankings. But, he then lost all of his points and is now playing qualifers and challengers. If he does this for the majority of he rest of his career, I'd call him a journeyman. If he somehow gets back to the Top 40 and has those results again and maintains them for a while, then maybe not.

    The thing is, tennis commentators use "journeyman" very generally - basically, anyone who has been around along time, but never did anything "big" (again, we can debate what "big" means). So, it's applied to a wide range of players. I've even heard it applied to players who clearly achieved non-journeyman results, but then stuck around and results dwindled. Thus, I've heard reference to the "journeyman phase of his/her career."

    Right now, I think of Tim Smyczek as a true journeyman.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
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  16. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    That's true, those guys are journeymen, I'd also throw in Michael Russell and tons of others. But this thread was on the BEST of the journeymen.
     
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  17. comeback

    comeback Professional

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    The #1 player in the world just lost to someone who has AT TIMES been described as a 'journeyman" (Tommy Haas)
     
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  18. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I've never heard anyone call him that, & I've followed his entire career.

    paul goldstein spent most of his career ranked 70-100(& I think won more challengers than anyone)

    If he wasn't a journeyman, I don't know who was.
     
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  19. comeback

    comeback Professional

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    Congrats on being a fan of Tommy Haas..I am too....My point was how ridiculous that word "journeyman" is for any top 100 pro.
    here is an article that refers to Haas as a higher level journeyman
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nspiring-story-from-roger-federers-generation
     
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  20. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Pretty silly of them to call someone who was #2 in the world a "jouneyman." So only if you were #1 in the world would you be better than a journeyman?
     
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  21. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    nah, I think it refers that he has had to struggle like a journeyman many times .... but that he always had much more talent than a journeyman ..

    to call haas a journeyman would be ridiculous.

    P.S. Bleacherreport is mainly a blogspace and I've seen many ridiculous comments there ...
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Wouldn' t it be Ferrer the paradigma of journeymanship?
     
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  23. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    Ferrer is nowhere near being a journeyman.
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Upper class journey I meamt
     
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  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In Golden Tennis we use to categhorize guys like Higueras ir Barazutti is upper class journeys and none of them got further number 10
    Well now the longtime ago number 4 is the place where journeymanship status starts. ...which speakes uncredible volume about that era
    Wait!!! I just don' t remember who was number 5 during peak Fed era...Philippoussis? Bagdhatis? BLAKE!!!!?
    How glorious!!!
     
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  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ferrer should be awarded a Disney fast pass for life
    He is king of Micky Mouse events!!!
     
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  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Has journeyman David ever won a Masters 1000 or Supernine event?
     
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  28. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    he won Paris last year ...
     
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  29. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    ferrer >>> higueras/barazzutti ........... and they didn't call higueras/barazutti as journeymen either. only in your world .........

    ramirez was #4 in 76, gene mayer in 80, gilbert in 90, forget in 91, rusdeski , bjorkman in 97, enqvist in 99, kiefer in 2000

    dibbs was #5 in 78, solomon in 80, arias in 84, jarryd in 85

    yeah, so much for the so called 'golden era'
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
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  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You dare whispering the names of Ramirez andFerrer?
    Woow I am stunned
    Gene Mayer beat iN THE SAME WEEK both Mac and Borg and also beat Lendl and Connors
    Not even in your Disney planet may Ferrer dream doing that
     
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  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...and Raul defeated Borg 6-0 6-1 at Teheram and Connors at DC
    Wake when Ferrer trashes Nadal and Fed like that
     
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  32. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Federer and Nadal are better players than Borg and Connors ;).

    Were Borg and Connor's peaking at the time? Ferrer has wins over Nadal, never beaten Federer though.
     
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  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Both look better because of week era
    In important finals has Ferrer beaten Nadal?
     
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  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I keept seeing how amazed are young fans when they discover a wonderful world they didn' t know to exist at all, that of XX century tennis
    Their willingness to learn will make them enjoy real tennis and, learn the contrast with current, boring, monostyle era
     
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  35. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Or maybe its a strong era and the top guys are just that good...
     
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  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ferrer at 4 is just the perfect definition of this era
     
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  37. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    He's only #4 because Nadal has been injured. There are 35 Grand slams combined between Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray, 36 if you include Del Potro. Not many era's can post those sort of numbers.
     
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  38. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You can take any player during Laver's time and they wouldn't be #4 today. :twisted:
     
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  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No, they´d be number one or number two.
     
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  40. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Any player from Laver's era would be number one or two? :?

    Laver himself would be if he was at his peak.
     
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  41. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No, I´d pick Newcombe,Rosewall,Nastase,Ashe, maybe Roche, a healthy Hoad and a younger Gonzales.

    Emerson,Kodes,Smith,Okker,Stolle,Gimeno and Santana would be very competitive but not number 1 or 2.
     
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  42. Costagirl

    Costagirl Banned

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    Ya! What about Vince Spadea? I always thought he was good for the personality of the mens game but he really never did that well did he?
     
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  43. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    No.

    Djokovic would be ahead of most of those guys even at his reduced level. Gonzales, peak Hoad, Rosewall yes maybe they could be ahead of him. 2011 Djokovic on these courts would probably be ahead of them all.
     
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  44. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    read : kiki is clueless .......

    ferrer > ramirez ...

    reality ..reality ...



    ferrer beat nadal, djokovic, roddick in the same week in Masters 2007

    he also beat djokovic and murray in the same week in Masters 2011

    ferrer has beaten nadal, djokovic, murray all multiple times

    you are total clueless .......
     
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  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I know it breaks you down so much enthusiasm around an era you just don´t have a remote clue about...sorry, learn to live with that.

    Comparing big talented Ramirez and Mayer to moonballing icon Ferrer is the jokes of ages...
     
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  46. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    lol, face it , you just don't know the facts/reality ........ ferrer > ramirez, mayer ... no question ..

    its just like when you say borg-vilas at RG was more interesting than nadal-djoker AO 2012 when in reality it was far more boring ....

    I have plenty of clue about the 70s and give the players of that time their due just as I do for the modern era ...

    you just have no idea of the reality and live in the past , of which you have a totally myopic view ....
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
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  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Your only clue about past players are the books and internet wiki...
     
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  48. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I could easily describe some of the matches I've seen in that era , including :

    borg-mac 1980 wimbledon final
    borg-vilas 1978 RG final
    orantes-connors 1975 USO final
    borg-gerulaitis 1977 wimbledon semi
    connors-mac 1984 USO semi

    etc etc etc ....

    this is only until 85 btw ...have seen far more of the matches after that ....

    I think the 1984 semi b/w mac/connors was the finest match at the USO in the open era ....

    how about you describe some of the matches in the modern era - apart from federer-nadal or federer-safin ....

    lets see you having a go at that , shall we ? :lol:
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
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  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The only matches I didn´t sleep at where the middle 2000´s Wimbledon finals between Nadal and Fed.Great matches, both, 2007 and 2008.I also watched their many FO finals, but it was a blast, still some nice points whatsoever.

    Djokovic is too sleepish for me.Murray, a bit nicer to watch but that´s it.and I also watched the 2009 Flushing final, with Del Potro beating Federer.great play from del potro.Reminded me when Safin beat sampras at 2000 USO final.

    If we go to the beginning of the century, i certainly watched Costa beating Ferrero at Rg, ferrero beating Verkerk, Guga winning his 2 RG, and Ivanisveic surprising win at Wimbledon 2001.Oh¡ and that great Sampras showdown at the USO 2002.

    I watched live or tv other events like Miami,Barcelona,Madrid,Rome,Montecarlo,London´s YEC,Hamburg, and some DC finals, too.
     
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