Tennis - Courts have made defence the new attack, says Federer

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennis_pro, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The technology has led to serve and volley being close to extinction and the dominance of baseline play. That doesn't mean that different courts all have the same conditions, just that baseline play predominates everywhere.

    You're misunderstanding me. There are still clear differences between the surfaces, which is why Nadal dominates on clay but not on hardcourts for example, but that doesn't change the things I've said about the technology and the fazing out of carpet courts being the main factors in today's tennis play on the tour (i.e. baseline play with authority) being different from the tennis style on tour in past eras.

    Because there are clear differences between clay and hardcourts. I never suggested otherwise. I'm sorry if you got that impression, but that was never my point.

    It doesn't seem that we are.

    Most of the time, yes. The modern technology makes it harder to get off the baseline.

    The modern technology compels players to stay on the baseline the vast majority of the time, because of the power, spin, depth and authority in the rallies in today's game. This doesn't change the fact that the courts are different at each tournament, or even different courts at the same tournament. But baseline play does now hugely predominate at all tournaments, and it's mostly because of the technology in today's game.

    What happened in Madrid this year was down to the surface, it was ridiculously slippery.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
    #51
  2. NGM

    NGM Semi-Pro

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    Federer is totally right. I dont understand why some of you think he is bitter. Faster court is something we demand for years, and now when Federer says it out loud somehow he is bitter?

    Faster court is a must. I dont think it should be discussed anymore. Tennis becomes boring and boring with slow court and everyone play the same, 1-2 meters behind the baseline. Federer is only genius left in the world of gladiators. And it is not a good thing, at all.

    One bigger thing I want to point out, that is tennis is dying with slow court. Boys born in the slow era like Nadal, Djokovic have the most benefits of it but also suffering, because they are burnt out quickly than before. And to counter that inevitable end, they demand shorter calendar year with much less tournament and two year ranking. That are all bad for tennis as a sport. Federer maybe is the only man understand bigger picture and try to prevent it. I dont understand I dont see any support for him in this important thing, instead you say he is bitter. WTF is that?
     
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  3. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    I think that (one of the things that) Mustard is trying to say is that players today (on average) impart much more top-spin than in previous eras. And because of that much top-spin the balls travel slower (take more time to get to the other baseline) than with a very flat hit shot. That alone can make the impression that the conditions are slower than they actually are.

    And that is true.

    But apart from that, I really think that many outdoor hardcourts (AusOpen, US OPEN, and many others) have been slowed down noticeably, and they are using slower balls as well.

    You (Mustard) say that todays players average shots have more power than earlier, and that is true, but probably the main reason is that in todays conditions the balls sits up in a way that did not happen on faster former conditions.

    When I watch Agassi, Martin, Chang playing in the US OPEN in the 90s, their average shots may have been slower than today (the court and balls were faster and after the bounce the balls did not sit up as today, it was more difficult to play on those former faster conditions), but you could see that when they had an easy ball, a ball that sit up after the bounce, they smack a flat shot that looked WAY FASTER than the average winner shots you see today. Todd Martin flat attacking shots, even Chang when he decided to smack a flat winner off of an easy ball, were absolutely impossible to retrieve, whereas today you see that it is much more difficult to hit a shot like that (because the balls are slower and they lose much more speed after the bounce today).

    So there are many different things that contribute to what all of us are watching: slower hard courts, slower balls, and much more top-spin on average.

    So, have they slowed down hard courts and balls? For me it is clearly: YES (apart from stopping using carpet and slowing down of Wimbledon grass and balls there too).

    Do the type of strokes influence the perception of speed? Yes, of course. I remember when Todd Martin won the Barcelona Open one year in the 90s against Alberto Berasategui in the final, that suddenly that slow clay of Barcelona looked WAY FASTER only because the powerful flat shots of Todd Martin were absolutely impossible to retrieve for Alberto Berasategui.

    Is it this thing what you are trying to say, Mustard?

    But apart from that, they have slowed down some hard courts and balls noticeably.
     
    #53
  4. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    We have had this conversation before and I do not think, that anything has changed. Go back and read all the discussions.

    Also, this discussion is NOT about S&V. There is much more to a fast and low bouncing court than serve and volley.


    We are talking about HC and grass, if I am not mistaken. Why the clay vs. HC argument keeps popping up in your responses is beyond me.

    It is also beyond me, why you keep talking about carpet, when carpet is not presented on Tour at the moment and it has no place in that discussion (because there is nothing to compare there).

    The same as above.

    I am not talking about Nadal's success on clay vs. his overall success on HC. I am talking about his success on slow and medium HC vs. fast HC. There is a clear difference.

    You seem to think, that staying on the baseline is typical only for slow and medium HC, which is far from the truth. Even on the fastest HC can be and is rallied from the baseline. It is just that a much more penetrating balls can be fired for winners in such conditions. The modern technology is perfect for such play, but the speed of the courts doen't allow it.


    This is not an answer to my question.

    Besides, are you suggesting, that the players couldn't find their shots, because of the slipperiness of the blue clay? And if you are not suggesting that, why are you talking about it, as though the slipperiness is responsible for what we saw?Because I sure as hell saw a lot of attacking play. From the baseline.
     
    #54
  5. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    It is a sad thing, when I see the dynamic of a point being changed because 3 or 4 consecutive shots, that would have been clean winners on fast courts are being returned, like nothing has happened. The conditions are considerably slower now, compared to the 90ies, no matter what Mustard say and that has nothing to do with the technology and everything to the with the surfaces (and the balls, but that varies too much).
     
    #55
  6. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Don't tell Clarky or Mustard that, they think those endless 30-shot rallies are beautiful.
     
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  7. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, I do. I find Borg vs. Vilas on clay, including an 86 stroke rally at the 1978 French Open, to be enthralling, while for others it's the definition of boredom.
     
    #57
  8. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    When was the last time, when you hit in a, say, 20 shot rally?
     
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  9. CCNM

    CCNM Hall of Fame

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    So Roger feels there should be slow courts AND fast courts? TOTALLY AGREE!!!!
     
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  10. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Oh boy you're really full of it.
     
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  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    For liking clay-court tennis? :neutral:
     
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