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Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by servelefty2233, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Yes, my son's page was visited by a coach named "Coach" from a school that is actually the name of a conference. Some coaches want to be anonymous on there.
     
  2. joshburger

    joshburger Guest

    How do u know that??? Because spell u isn't in the ccc conference...
     
  3. dancraig

    dancraig Hall of Fame

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    Dallas:
    I know a player who is ranked nationally at about 100 on your site and has a USTA national standing of about 500. Is this possible or does it sound like an error.
    Thanks for your answer.
     
  4. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    What is his sectional ranking? It could be he has a very good head-to-head record in sectional tournaments over highly ranked players, boosting his USTA sectional ranking and his TRN ranking without helping his USTA national ranking at all.
     
  5. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Good question. We allow coaches to choose whether or not they want to reveal their identities or remain anonymous. For example, NCAA Champion Duke Blue Devil coach Jamie Ashworth could choose to show up as:

    Jamie Ashworth - Duke Women

    or

    Women's Coach - ACC

    I hope this helps.

    Best,
    Dallas
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2009
  6. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Once again, Clark has done an excellent job answering, but let me add a few points...

    (1) The USTA and TRN ranking systems are completely different and reward different behaviors.

    (2) TRN treats all tournaments the same. If Player A beats Player B in a tournament that we count, then Player A earns ranking credit regardless of tournament. That is not the case in the USTA system - A beating B in a Level 1 tournament will earn a lot more points than when A beats B in a Level 3.

    (3) The USTA has completely different rankings for national, sectional, and state/district rankings. A player can be ranked #1 nationally but be unranked in his/her district. TRN has one national list - the regional and state rankings are simple filters of the national list.

    I hope this helps.

    - Dallas
     
  7. dancraig

    dancraig Hall of Fame

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    Thank-you, Dallas.
     
  8. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Dallas:

    Here is a question about the tournaments used in your rankings. From your FAQ:

    I just reviewed this FAQ because my son won a tournament that had 10 players in the draw, and 6 of the 10 were 1-star or 2-star in your database, but they were not National Players. They play national players at sectional level 3 and 4 tournaments, so they have results against national players.

    It seems like the objective of having lots of connectivity in the graph of your database is accomplished when 50% or more of the players in a tournament are 1-star and above. This is not like picking up a local tournament with a single 1-star player and a bunch of players you don't know anything about. I wonder if it would enhance the completeness of the database to include tournaments with so many rated players in them.
     
  9. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Great question. And we actually used the approach you describe during our first couple of years: we used all tournaments where a certain minimum percentage of the kids were ranked.

    Why did we change? What is the problem?

    The basic problem with this approach is that the population of ranked players will grow without bound - and there is "creep" towards ranking the entire population - and including every tournament under the sun. That ends up not being a good thing for head-to-head systems...

    Take Texas for example. Like many states, Texas has different levels of tournament: novice, champ, etc. (Apologies to Texas - I know that I am getting this terminology wrong.) When we used the approach you describe, our ranking system started ranking "tweener" novices who were playing up in some champs tournaments, and then the creep led us to include more and more novice tournaments and rank more and more novices. Although there was some cross-play, for the most part the novices and the champs were isolated from one another. And although the champs as a rule were much better than the novices, some of the novices with gaudy records were getting higher rankings than the champs in our lists. Including results like these will always lead to problems in a head-to-head system...

    By using national players as the standard, we ensure that all tournaments have a certain quality level for all time. There is no creep, because the size of the pool of national players is essentially fixed.

    Anyway... this response probably includes more detail than you wanted. But these are the basic reasons why we use national player percentage in our tournament selection.

    Best regards,
    Dallas
     
  10. VA10S

    VA10S New User

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    My son completed play at the Boys 16s Intersectionals event in Shreveport, LA last week. He notched 3 decent wins but I don't see the results reflected in the latest TRN rankings. According to criterion No. 2 in the FAQ, shouldn't this event count since it is a USTA National Schedule tournament? If it is not included in the TRN algorithm, what is the reason for the exclusion?

    My son is also scheduled to play the Boys 18s National Team Championship in early August. Will this tournament be included in the TRN rankings? Like the Boys 16 Intersectionals, it is also on the USTA National Tournament Schedule. Thanks for responding.
     
  11. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    VA10S -

    Results for weekend tournaments must be available before our cut-off time (on Sunday night) to make the current week's rankings. Since we freeze all data on Sunday night, many events have a one-week lag before they make it into our rankings.

    But those results should indeed count. Check back next week.

    Best,
    Dallas
     
  12. TennisTaxi

    TennisTaxi Rookie

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    Dallas,

    Last week my son played in two local USTA Open tournaments, his record for the week was 5-1, with one of the wins over a player ranked 5 spots higher than him and his loss was to a player ranked significantly higher than him. However, his overall ranking dropped 11 positions when the rankings came out on Tuesday...does this make sense?

    Thanks
     
  13. 10isplayer

    10isplayer Semi-Pro

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    Tennis recruiting doesn't add Men's Open tournaments into their calculations
     
  14. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    In general, beating people above you helps - and losing to people above you does not hurt. So no, the activity that you describe above - your son posting that 5-1 record - when taken in a vacuum, certainly does not seem to indicate that your son should drop 11 positions in the rankings.

    But, of course, there is no vacuum, and the system is a much more complicated beast. A couple of factors are (1) ranking changes for all opponents that your son played and (2) results from last year dropping off your son's record - and everyone else's record, for that matter.

    There are so many variables in the ranking system that it is often difficult to predict what will happen - particularly in the summer when there is so much activity from this year (new results each week) and activity dropping off from last year (many old results dropping off each week).

    Another factor is that your son and those ranked right around him might be very close in their ranking values. There is often only a sliver of difference between the #300 kid and the #310 kid - and they might flip-flop from week to week depending on new results coming in / old results falling off.

    Another factor might be that other kids ranked close to your son also had strong weeks... this is the time of year where there are many tournaments at all levels, and so there is a lot of movement.

    Still another factor is that perhaps some new kids corrected their graduation years or became eligible and are ranked above your son. Just this week, there is a Blue Chip senior girl who popped back into the rankings after playing enough tournaments to become eligibile again. If there is a new player coming in at, say, #12, then everyone #13 and below will see their rank value drop one spot.

    Rather than look at changes from week to week, I always look at the players ranked right above a player to see if there is a clear-cut case where Player A should be ranked ahead of Player B but is not... I have looked at many of these cases - some of them that came from readers on this board - and I have not yet seen a clear-cut case where our system is behaving poorly. I have always been able to make an argument for the ordering that our system produces.

    I hope this helps.

    Best,
    Dallas
     
  15. TennisTaxi

    TennisTaxi Rookie

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    Thanks for your response:)

     
  16. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    Hi Dallas : I'm following a player on TRN,he played up in age group and didn't do that well and his ranking dropped ... how do you re-flect the fact that he played up and still his underclass ratings went down because now his win/lost record got 2 additional loses?
     
  17. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Try reading Dallas' last, lengthy post. How do you know the drop was even related to his two losses?
     
  18. MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER

    MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER Semi-Pro

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    I agree with Clark
    I don't think we want to rub the "Dallas lamp" over the same stuff covered over and over- He may not answer when called on deck.

    We all know how important a tyke's move of ten points on the ratings means in the scheme of things to some parents- but it all evens out.
     
  19. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Since this question was among the most frequently-asked, I wanted to mention a change to our TRN policy here...

    Effective 2010-11, TRN will begin publishing its Top Prospects Ratings (i.e., Blue Chips, 5 Stars, 4 Stars, etc.) twice a year - once in the Fall (October) and once in the late winter / early spring (month TBD).

    We are also making some other tweaks that many people have asked for on this board. You can read all about it here:

    http://tennisrecruiting.net/article.asp?id=1022

    Happy to discuss here, but please do not inundate us with questions to support@tennisrecruiting.net. Since the article went up on the site on Monday, we have had many people asking questions like, "What will the thresholds be?" "Will my daughter be a 3 Star?" At this point, we want our users to submit any corrections they see on their records - but to be patient with asking specific questions about their children. We are still entering data, correcting data, and working out some of the thresholds to ensure that everything is fair without inflating the numbers too much. (After all, our goal is not to increase the number of Blue Chips to 50 or 5 Stars to 200 - but rather to make these ratings more fair - and more predictable in the future.)

    We will publish more information about the ratings once we finalize things - but all of TRN is busy during September doing these ratings - and making sure that they are as error-free as possible.

    Best regards,
    Dallas
     
  20. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Some of you might be interested...

    TennisRecruiting.net is running its special coverage of Fall Signing Week 2010 this Monday through Friday - with 12 articles including commitment announcements from 7 Blue Chip seniors.

    All the articles are available free all week - come check us out:

    http://TennisRecruiting.net

    Best regards,
    Dallas
     
  21. glamslova

    glamslova New User

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