Tennis recruiting rankings seriously flawed

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by coaching32yrs, Jun 12, 2012.

  1. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I have direct knowledge of the following situation. A 4 star girl beats a 5 star in a 4 hour marathon. She is exhausted but agrees to play the following round against a 1 star who had a walkover in the previous round. The 4 star is up 3-0 but cramping badly. She has to default. Her TRN ranking goes down 30 spots because she lost to someone 700 places behind her. When the new star rankings come out she has lost a star. She appeals to the folks who run TRN but they will not overule the loss, despite the fact that the winning player did not win any games. Now, some colleges will not consider her because she is a 3 star, not a 4 star. Hard to believe this story but it is true.
     
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  2. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    Unfortunately this is how the system works. Our district automatically makes players who withdrawl for any reason play one point and those losses go against their TRN rankings. Just like the player gets a free win for nothing. It used to bother me but now I wish it was mandatory and it would help eliminate players WD from tournaments as soon as they hit the back draw.

    If a coach will not consider her because of one loss then those are coaches that you don't want to be involved with anyway. Just like when a coach looks at that 1 star with 1 good win, they usually look at it as a fluke.
     
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  3. TennisNola

    TennisNola New User

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    No offense intended coach, but she didn't "agree" to play her.. she played her because she was entered in the tournament and that was her next round. That's tennis, and worse things have happened.. she was obviously a very low 4 star, if she slipped to 3 stars after this one loss. (and it is unlikely that this one loss is actually what made her slip, because her 5 star win the same day would have added some balance to the equation). If she is a rising senior, she is likely already in contact with the coaches she wants to play for, and she can easily email them about what happened. If she is a rising junior, just forget about it.. she will have many chances to make up for it. Her life will not likely be altered by this, and if it is.. she will have learned more about her body as it relates to what she needs to do to help prevent cramping.. good luck.
     
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  4. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    ----------------
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  5. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Yes this is hard to believe. In fact right now I do not believe it. Please do the Board a favor and let us know which colleges you are aware of that will eliminate a player from consideration based on your fact situation
     
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  6. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    It is true that matches count for both players when one of the them retires. Retiring is part of the game, and handling retirements on a case-by-case basis presents logistical nightmares (e.g., scores for retirements are often not recorded, drawing lines as to what scores should count / not count is subjective). For this reason, we count all matches that play more than one point and/or one game. You will find that the USTA and ITF handle things similarly.

    I talked to all the principals at TRN, and we do not recall this circumstance - although we have explained our policy to many, and it is included in our FAQ:

    http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/faq/rankings.asp#Rankings-R

    Best regards,
    Dallas
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
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  7. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Our system does not count matches coded as withdrawals due to injury or illness that have scores of 15-0, 0-15, 1-0, or 0-1. If someone knows of one of these matches that have been miscoded and are counting, they should email us at info@tennisrecruiting.net so that we can make a correction.

    Best,
    Dallas
     
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  8. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Dallas,
    How do we know what counts and what does not? Should we assume that all results in player's record with an asterisk do not count and everything else does as per note at the bottom of the player records:
    "* The ranking calculation does NOT consider matches marked with an asterisk."
    But in the actual players records I can see:
    Def (late)*
    Wd (ill)*
    Wo (inj)*
    Wd (admin)*
    But also with no asterisk:
    15-0Ret (emerg)
    0-15Ret (inj)
     
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  9. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    Thanks for this info Dallas.

    So to clarify, if a person loses 6-2, 2-0 (retired because of injury), then you count it.

    But if a person (who's wanting to keep the sectional points that he earned in previous matches) plays a point & shakes hands with his opponent. (& they code it 15-0 or 1-0 (inj)).....then TRN doesn't count the match?

    Thanks!
     
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  10. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Correct.

    - Dallas
     
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  11. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    None of the scenarios you list above count for our rankings.

    The asterisk indicates that a result is not used. My understanding is that all of the above scenarios should include an asterisk. (Julie - am I right on this?)

    Best,
    Dallas
     
    #11
  12. gully

    gully Semi-Pro

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again: Dallas provides a GREAT service to coaches and parents both, for really very little money to us parents. And, to boot, I think the ranking system is very good. It's not based on one match but a year's worth of results, and retirements due to lack of conditioning are a part of the game, in juniors and in college. If the 4-star can't beat a 1-star even after a marathon, my guess is the 4-star is close to the 200 spot anyway, and her current star-rating is pretty much always in jeopardy of a bad loss hurting it.
     
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  13. jbw

    jbw New User

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    Dallas -- You are correct that none of the matches listed in klu375's email should be counting as wins and losses in our system.

    KLU375 -- Please send me an email with the name of the player(s) where 15-0Ret (emerg) and 0-15Ret (inj) are listed without an asterisk and I will have these results corrected.

    Note to parents, players and coaches -- The tournament is required to list retirements when one point has been played. If you see this has been published on TennisLink, please notify me immediately so I can have these results corrected in our ranking system.
     
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  14. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    That's not really fair. I have witnessed 5 and 4 star players lose to 2 and 1 star players many times due to one player having to play a 3 hour match at noon, or 2:00 in 100 degrees, 106 degrees, 110 degrees, and then the USTA gives them a one hour break between matches. Not 61 minutes mind you.... 60 minutes is all you get......
    And then they are heat exhausted, they get injured, and they quit.
    I have seen that scenario over and over.....
     
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  15. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Julie,
    Your TT account is not accepting emails. If you fix it I will send you couple of examples but I have never seen a score like that with an asterisk.

    And Tennis Recruiting ranking is not seriously flawed. It is the best ranking system there is to predict relative strength of players. Of course it has limitations, for example, at the Easter Bowl I could see indoor 5-stars struggling against outdoor 4-stars. But yes, comes recruiting age you really need to think hard about letting your kid play sanctioned tournament match when he/she is not 100%. It is the most unfortunate for players caming back from an injury.
     
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  16. mrmo1115

    mrmo1115 Hall of Fame

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    Hey Dallas , just had a question that is related to my profile... thought I would post here instead of just creating a topic.

    http://tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?sessionid=0C7E45047B4BB899

    I know the rule for a ranking is 4 wins 3 tournaments... am I right in saying I'll go into the NA ranking after the 8/5/11 tournament rolls off?

    Just wanted to clarify.
     
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  17. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .......................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  18. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    This seems like one of those situations where life's just not fair, but I don't see anything TRN can do about it. Certainly doesn't make their system flawed. The policies they have in place seem to make sense. If they change their policy for this particular situation, it seems like a slippery slope. Next thing you know they will be getting emails saying "please don't count this match, my child ate some bad fish the night before.."

    The fact is the player made a mistake and is paying for it. Maybe didn't drink enough Gatorade or eat enough bananas. Or, if she didn't have enough energy to beat even a one star, she should have walked out on to the court, played a point and shook her hand. Maybe she didn't know that was an option.

    What's seriously flawed is if coaches are relying solely on TRN rankings for there recruiting, and not taking the time to dig a little deeper, but that's on the coaches, not TRN.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  19. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    ^^^
    Seriously flawed? TRN rankings may factor into the equation, but I don't think coaches are relying solely on TRN rankings for recruiting. It's just one more tool.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  20. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Hey mrmo1115 -

    The link that you posted does not bring me to a player - the URL needs to have an "id" argument at the end.

    But yes - you have the general policy correct.

    Best,
    Dallas
     
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  21. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    What TRN does well is break down the players records by the rating of one's opponents. Coaches can easily see how that player has done against the different calibers of players. So, having a hiccup like the OP suggests would show a loss to a 1-star, but they would also see that they beat a 5-star. Like anything statistically speaking, you always throw out the outliers.
     
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  22. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Furthermore, I'd be very surprised if any legitimate coach has a strict cutoff between three and four stars, if he/she is recruiting in that neighborhood to begin with.

    Player # 200....a four-star.....has more in common with player #201....a three-star.......than with players #76 thru say #125, who are also four-stars.
     
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  23. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    That's certainly what we have heard.

    College coaches understand - and everyone else should also know - that our Top Prospect Ratings (i.e., "the stars") are simply a coarse, infrequent ranking. We think they are enlightening and useful, but they are what they are.

    - Dallas
     
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  24. jbw

    jbw New User

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    klu375 -- You will never see a retirement listed with an asterisk. When a player has to play a point or one game and then retire because of qualification for their respective section, we change the score to a walkover.

    You can reach me at julie@tennisrecruiting.net.
     
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  25. Staidhup

    Staidhup New User

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    As I understand it most recruiters are more interested in the quality of tournaments prospects play, opponents, results, and section they play in. National ranking and star ranking serves only as a bench mark that reflects match play experience. College coach's don't waste their time and money on bringing prospects to a campus without first knowing if a player has what it takes to be a worthy contribution to their team, but most importantly do not have the budget to scout every top junior tournament in the country. As a father of a former Division 1 player I think the star rating system reflects an unbiased approach in the recruiting process.
     
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  26. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    It does not make sense to me that your system, in effect, encourages players not to play matches unless they are 100%. In the true scenario described my player was coming off a 4 hour match and her opponent had a walkover. She was exhausted and her friends told her not to "risk her rating" and play the match. Instead she played, won every game, but had to default due to cramping. If she had cramped at 1-0 or in the first game - the match doesn't count. If she cramps in the third game- it counts. Makes no sense. I am not saying this is important in her life, nor am I saying that TRN has nor merit. I am not saying that a grave injustice has been done to my player. What I am saying is this, let's do the best we can to make the system fair and make sense. Some little change like this " a player has to win at least ONE game to have it count as a win on TRN" would make the system better and be easy to apply. Not perfect, better.
     
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  27. jigglypuff

    jigglypuff Rookie

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    Doesn't make sense, so you are down 0-1 and opponent defaults for one reason or another. You don't get a win?
     
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  28. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Hi Coaching32years and jigglypuff,

    Let me help you with another perspective.

    Some... note the word some... sections are completely IDIOTIC and make their junior players play 3 out of 5 sectionals
    in order to be endorsed for the Winter Nats, Easter Bowl, Clay Court, and Hard court.

    So, your kid just broke their arm, or better yet, they just broke the leg.
    They are on crutches...... Guess what, they will have to walk out onto the court with crutches, and play 1 point.
    2 hour drive - Sectional doesn't care.
    Waste of gas and money. Sectional doesnt care.
    Oh, paying the TOURNAMENT fee to play one point!!!!!!!! Sectional doesn't care.

    So, TRN is helping with these idiotic rules that the USTA has put in place.

    Two years ago, we had a 4 hour drive with my son's wrist broken, so he could play one point.
    I told the sectional that I would send the xrays, have the dr call them, they didn't care.
    Nope he had to play to be "endorsed".
    So, we drove 4 hours, paid for a hotel to sleep over, and then drove back the next day. What a waste.

    Or your player hurt their back, their shoulder, their elbow, their ankle, they have the flu, a stomach virus, guess what - you might have to play one point.
    It is not just a broken something.......

    TRN helps with these endorsement rules by not counting the match.
    And TRUST ME, IN THESE SECTIONS, WITH THESE DUMB RULES, THIS GOES ON ALL DAY....
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  29. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Originally Posted by tennis5
    That's not really fair. I have witnessed 5 and 4 star players lose to 2 and 1 star players many times due to one player having to play a 3 hour match at noon, or 2:00 in 100 degrees, 106 degrees, 110 degrees, and then the USTA gives them a one hour break between matches. Not 61 minutes mind you.... 60 minutes is all you get......
    And then they are heat exhausted, they get injured, and they quit.
    I have seen that scenario over and over.....


    I guess my points don't come across well when typing on my iphone.

    tball2day,

    Where in real life competitive pro tennis, do you play a 3 hour match in 110 degree heat, and then 60 minutes later, have to play another 3 hour match?

    Does it seem fair that the USTA gives a junior, not an adult, a junior still growing - an hour break?
    And then after the 2nd match of 3 hours, you get 30 minutes before you have to play doubles? In weather that can hit up to 115 degrees?

    I don't know why this should be a life and death event where the kids are totally dehydrated.
    How are you suppose to replace all that fluid that you lost in one hour?

    Why do the matches have to be played at noon, 2 pm and 4 pm?
    Well, I do know why, because the TD will not pay for a ref to be there at 7 am, and then come back at 3 pm.
     
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  30. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Ayuppp. Athletes who sustain injuries miss opportunities. Good point. The baseball player who hurts his arm junior year and can't participate in summer showcases, the running back who has a nagging hammy all football season and can't show his acceleration between the tackles, the volleyball player with shin splints who can't hit for her club team.

    These players are shut out of opportunities while they are injured. At least the rich tennis families can hop in a car and make a token appearance on court to preserve endorsement status. Sounds to me that tennis is more forgiving than other sports.

    And TRN is somehow to blame for injured athletes missing opportunities!???!!

    Must be a slow day in Complaintville.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  31. mrmo1115

    mrmo1115 Hall of Fame

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    Sorry Dallas, here it is
    http://tennisrecruiting.net/player/overview.asp?id=471209

    The only thing I have to ask is that when I click my ranking and I'm brought to the list... it says I have more tournaments played than I actually have played... The tournaments where I defaulted were also included in the Tournament Count... but they don't apply to the 4 win 3 tournament ranking qualification correct?

    Just wanted to check if I'm going to go NA after the Aug 5 tournament rolls off.
     
    #31
  32. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Great points. I've seen some bogus examples about unfairness regarding one player having to play a hot match and the other playing in the shade, boo hoo hoo. Temperature rules come into play at 90 degrees. http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/2012 FRIEND AT COURT.pdf

    Instead of focusing on rankings how about focusing on additional conditioning and learning to hydrate? Tennis can be tough folks. This isn't bowling.
     
    #32
  33. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Hi Coaching32years and jigglypuff,

    Let me help you with another perspective.

    Some... note the word some... sections are completely IDIOTIC and make their junior players play 3 out of 5 sectionals
    in order to be endorsed for the Winter Nats, Easter Bowl, Clay Court, and Hard court.

    So, your kid just broke their arm, or better yet, they just broke the leg.
    They are on crutches...... Guess what, they will have to walk out onto the court with crutches, and play 1 point.
    2 hour drive - Sectional doesn't care.
    Waste of gas and money. Sectional doesnt care.
    Oh, paying the TOURNAMENT fee to play one point!!!!!!!! Sectional doesn't care.

    So, TRN is helping with these idiotic rules that the USTA has put in place.

    Two years ago, we had a 4 hour drive with my son's wrist broken, so he could play one point.
    I told the sectional that I would send the xrays, have the dr call them, they didn't care.
    Nope he had to play to be "endorsed".
    So, we drove 4 hours, paid for a hotel to sleep over, and then drove back the next day. What a waste.

    Or your player hurt their back, their shoulder, their elbow, their ankle, they have the flu, a stomach virus, guess what - you might have to play one point.
    It is not just a broken something.......

    TRN helps with these endorsement rules by not counting the match.
    And TRUST ME, IN THESE SECTIONS, WITH THESE DUMB RULES, THIS GOES ON ALL DAY....

    Really.... that is what I wrote about?
    That "TRN is somehow to blame for injured athletes missing opportunities".

    You started out on this forum as a decent contributor.
    But, now most of the comments are nasty and it appears that you are not even reading the posts.

    This will be the last time I respond to your posts.

    Good luck with your junior.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
    #33
  34. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Thanks for pointing out the rules. However, it is not being followed by the USTA.

    Tournaments are being played in 110 degrees with only 60 minutes in between singles and 30 minutes between doubles.
     
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  35. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    tennis 5 wasn't complaining about TRN. He/she was illustrating why the 15-0 inj. "no count" policy that TRN uses makes sense. (given the rules the USTA & some sections have & atheletes have to follow).

    He/she was also giving an example of how some sections endorse their Juniors. If you don't play in a given tournament in Sept. for example (for whatever reason) & are #1 in your section in Dec., you can't compete at the Winternational (for example).....even though you're #1 in your section top 10 nationally & competed in 4 of the last 5 tournaments. He/she knew the rule & the kid wanted to compete in the National Tournament, so they made the trip.

    Stating that a USTA rule is dumb, isn't complaining (imo, lots of their rules are dumb) & it doesn't have anything to do with TRN.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  36. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ..............................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
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  37. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Tennis5,
    Don't be too upset. I really think Misterbill likes to attack you (in words) for entertaining purposes for the forum. Almost like watching brother/sister or brother/brother fight!
     
    #37
  38. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Some tournaments will ask players to play when the heat rules could be enforced. But the player can refuse and sight the heat rule.

    Those rules are strictly enforceable by the players and the parents if not by the tournament. It's easy to document the temperature at the time of the match. Let them try to break the heat rules and default you. They won't. Stand up for yourself and your player. If they do default you, document it and file a complaint. You'll have their hide.
     
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  39. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I read that as a complaint..........a grossly misplaced one...........about TRN.

    That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I don't think TRN is helping with any idiotic rules and I disagree with the opinion of tennis5 about this.

    Seems that some people feel pretty big when they are slanging around criticism about others on the Board, such as Dallas.............but get all defensive when someone happens to disagree with their opinion.
     
    #39
  40. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Now I am even more confused. Does this mean that there should be no scores like
    15-0Ret (emerg)
    0-15Ret (inj)
    in the players' records as you should have replaced them with
    Wo (inj)*
     
    #40
  41. hound 109

    hound 109 Rookie

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    I'm glad TRN doesn't count the "play one point & shake hands" matches that are of a result of USTA & Sectional point gathering & endorsement rules.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  42. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I think only a few sections enforce this stupid rule of endorsement
    ( most sections just will take a doctor's note ), so it is very helpful that TRN does not report the 15-0 matches.

    However, you have to make sure the TD records it as such 15-0 or 0-15.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
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  43. jbw

    jbw New User

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    The only matches that should be recorded as retirements on TRN should be matches that have started and are past one game in the score.

    There should be no scores like the following:
    15-0 Ret (emerg), 15-0 Ret (inj), 15-0 Ret(Ill)
    1-0 Ret (emerg), 1-0 Ret (inj), 1-0 Ret(Ill)

    All of the above should be recorded as walkovers and have an asterisk (*) attached to the score.

    But our data entry staff is instructed to record the exact scores from the draw sheets published on TennisLink and the ITF junior websites. Parents and players are to notify TRN if they have one of these scores on their records for corrections to be made.
     
    #43
  44. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    Julie,
    Thank you for clarification - I think we got to the bottom of it.
    You may have to prepare to receive a bunch of emails soon:)
     
    #44
  45. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    In the TRN system a player who does not even win ONE game gets a win if the opponent retires in the third game. If the player retires in the first or second game the score is 1-0 and the match does not count. Can't TRN make a simple rule that a player has to win at least ONE game to get a TRN win? That makes sense, is logical, and is easy to apply.
     
    #45
  46. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    It happens all the time where a player is up 3-0 and loses the set and then the next one. This is when both players are healthy. Being up 3-0 can be just one break.

    The 5 star win and an explanation to a coach is all that any coach would need. I don't care what level a player is, they have ALL lost to players that they shouldn't have lost to. I would guess that 99% of the coaches out there know this. The other ones should not be coaching.

    It would be nice if players were allowed to rest the same amount of time their previous match took but there usually isn't enough time for that.

    Look how many times players get "free" points in the back draw because their opponents are "injured" as soon as they lose in the main draw. Try getting the USTA to impose the 15-0 rule. That will never happen, because too many players would start getting bonus points over top kids who think they are too good to play the back draw.
     
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  47. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    Hi Coach -

    We understand the situation you describe, and it is indeed unfortunate. However, it is difficult to come up with a meaningful algorithm that can cover all cases objectively. Since we are small, objective criteria is huge for us - we cannot afford to have policies that are subjective. The case that your player faced is not clear-cut to me and requires subjectivity... as kme5150 points out, being down 0-3 could mean being down just one break.

    Our (simple and objective) policy has always been to award wins and losses for all matches that go on the court - unless the match was not played at all. We started treating 0-15, 15-0, 1-0, and 0-1 as special cases of "not played" because of policies that some sections instituted in recent years.

    And as many of the other people posting on this thread have pointed out, taking one or two losses or getting credit for one or two wins like this will not have a huge impact on one's ranking.

    I hope this helps outline our position. We will probably disagree on how things should be handled, but hopefully you can understand where we are coming from.

    Kind regards,
    Dallas
     
    #47
  48. Up&comer

    Up&comer Hall of Fame

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    Dallasoliver, I'm curious, does beating a starred player in a higher class count more? For example, if I beat a 300 in the nation in the class below me, a 300 in the nation in my class, and a 300 in the nation from the class above me, would the win over the one in the class above me count more than the other two?
     
    #48
  49. dallasoliver

    dallasoliver Rookie

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    When we rank, we actually put all kids of the same gender into one big pool and rank them - independent of age, stars, or anything. We just use the results. Once we are done with this initial, unfiltered list of all kids, we filter by graduation year and assign everyone rankings in their graduation year based on the rank order.

    So I'll answer like this... the #300 senior is usually (but not always) ranked higher than the #300 sophomore in our unfiltered ranking. In that case, beating the #300 senior will be worth more than beating the #300 sophomore. But note that it has nothing to do with the fact that a player is a senior - or sophomore - or older than you - or younger than you.

    I hope this helps.

    Kind regards,
    Dallas
     
    #49
  50. Up&comer

    Up&comer Hall of Fame

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    Interesting. Thanks!
     
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