Thank you Oscar Wegnar!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by guitarplayer, May 23, 2012.

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  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I didn't say it was natural. Tennis is not natural at all. I said a cross-over finish is natural with high swing speeds and top spin, because of inertia. It is about physics, not natural tendencies. Actually, towards the target finish is natural for most people, until they get good enough.

    No athletic kid playing on his own will play tennis properly, unless he/she is a very keen observer. Tennis is one of the most difficult sports to learn. There may be exceptions like Santana, or Seguera who also picked it up himself as a ball-boy.

    Your early education made you into a pro in the wood era. Sounds good enough to me. Education has to be conservative and a little behind the times, otherwise it will constantly change with the latest fad and that is not good.
     
  2. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Is there somewhere I can learn this technique without having to read a tome, pour through 100,004 posts or watch 4 hours of youtube?

    Just askin...
     
  3. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    The book is an easy read.
     
  4. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Do I need to read a book to change my forehand motion?
     
  5. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    Well, I've never seen your forehand, so I don't know. There are some vids of his method on YouTube.
     
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Just watch any pro, junior or college player. I just found a random video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxBoGGg9Lpg&feature=related

    See how the hand wraps around the body in the finish
     
  7. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

  8. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Remember, MTM is NOT a different method of hitting the ball. It is a different way of teaching.
    Oscar took the way advanced players often hit the ball and came up with a way of teaching that directly - instead of players being taught in the traditional way and finding these shots on their own as they advance in skill.
    As someone who has learned a lot about educational methods, the only thing I can say for sure is that no one method is best for everyone.
     
  9. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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  10. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    Bizarre that you would select this video as an example of Oscar's teachings because it shows exactly what he says NOT to do IE: get sideways and step into the ball!
     
  11. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    This video, on the other hand, shows several elements that Oscar teaches:
    open stance
    weight shift from right to left (not forward)
    tracking the ball with the racket in front
    keeping the left hand on the racket as long as possible
    loose grip
    closed racket face - leading with the edge
    contact below the sweet spot
    lifting up and across
    finish across the body at or over the shoulder
    pulling back toward back fence
     
  12. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    That's the forehand I've been looking for.
     
  13. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    Exactly!!!!!!!!
     
  14. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

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    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure your point here.
    I went to your vid and Fed was hitting semi open in first 3 Fhs.
    Are you confusing shoulder turn with getting sideways?

    Oscar doesn't really say don't get sideways, as MTM is not stance dependent, but
    playnice is talking of instructional method, where he teaches it from open stance.
    If you get caught in neutral or closed stance that is not a problem and will happen at times.
    But notice how in the vid, she has misused the sideways stance to move too much
    forward into the shot and step thru to the right foot in front, like Salsy also stated was wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Unfortunately this explains why sureshs is constantly making uninformed comments
    on MTM, as this shows his lack of recognition and understanding related to the method. I guess he sees a topspin over the shoulder finish and thinks that is MTM??
     
  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It was a random video - hardly any selection done. Just for the across the shoulder finish.

    Sideways and step into the ball is a different matter and can be discussed separately. I do not see eye to eye with Oscar on that.
     
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What are you talking about? This video is same as a Murray one I discussed earlier - first stepping into the ball in a closed stance to line himself up, then moving the outside foot to a semi open.

    Most powerful shots are hit with a sideways and step in aspect to them, even if the final execution is semi-open.
     
  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No, he is obviously referring to the first sideways closed stance step into the ball, which provides the weight transfer and line up, and serves as the basis for the subsequent semi-open step.

    Here is another sideways:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

    and a step in followed by semi open:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=OkMpeYTY7gs
     
  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He should be more specific then.
     
  21. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Can't take him seriously when he claims the Chinese claim Federer's forehand is a double hit... lol...

    Points I can't agree with;

    - Pulling across the body - the reason why the forehand / backhand comes cross the body is because your swing once started should naturally follow a swing plane. The plane is circular, and will ultimately end across the body.

    - He also comments about martial and the pulling motion, showing a chopping motion and talking about breaking a board. Seriously stick to tennis. Punching is about projecting kinetic energy and transference of this energy to the maximum path of the strike. What looks like pull back is actually recoil.

    - The swing path his showing, is a brushing motion. Going from high to low, whilst this swing patch is fine, his showing no pronation at contact. In fact whilst shadow swinging at the ball he stiffens his forearm up and prevents pronation like a very hold forehand drive. Only its on another swing path. He actually shows pronation occurring but outlines its incorrect (5:55-6:05)

    - His weight transference statements irk me, yes you can hit the ball at neutral stance, but its not going to give you the same penetration as hitting the ball in front with your body with your weight moving forward. Its like a boxer that decides to punch with his arms and not add his weight behind the punch. I am saying its better practice when the situation allows, to put yourself behind and over the ball, that's one of the reasons why we hit the ball in front

    - He also mentions Federers acceleration which I think is actually unique in the game and is a good example of the evolution of the forehand stroke. Federer like a golfer, lags his racquet head. He maximises pronation because of this lag, once he reaches maximum reach, the forearm takes over and sends the racquet like an elastic band towards the ball. This is what makes his forehand so effective.

    - Also when your "pulling" the racquet across your body like the guy in the last few minutes of the video; it causes your head to shift quicker away from the point of contact, the head does not stabilise. In a lot of those shots the guy is practically "jumping turning" instead of letting his body naturally uncoil.

    Just a few thoughts when looking at that video
     
  22. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    Anyone else think sureshs and 5263 will make this a 2nd immortal Oscar thread? One's not enough I wonder..
     
  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Nice of you to do your part chipping in here.
     
  24. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    I laughed at most of that video posted. Its hard to take serious at all when like you pointed out its just so wrong. So very very wrong.

    Its almost like he is trying to be different just to be different. Right or wrong doesnt matter just be different.
     
  25. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    That's an excellent description. One that I forgot about and which is often used in golf. Players tend to tighten up, which reduces racquet/club speed, and deviates their swing path, when they are thinking of hitting a ball rather than executing a swing.
     
  26. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I remember seeing Laver called for a "carry" in a singles match before the rule was changed. Back then, if you hit the frame and the strings (basically a shank), it was considered a double hit and an instant loss of point. The rule was changed during Borg's prime, as I recall.
     
  27. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    This has been explained to Sureshs (and others), at least a dozen times in the past 2 years, and he will have nothing of it. Once he accepts that premise, he's got nothing else to complain about, you see.
     
  28. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    You asked a question. You got the answer. You don't want to slog through a 2 year long thread, you don't want to spend 4 hours on YouTube, you don't want to read a book. You're running out of options there, buddy. Perhaps a few private lessons from Oscar?
     
  29. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    The OP's old forehand looks like a Tonlars forehand to me. Waiting to see the new and improved OW forehand now.
     
  30. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    That's one I hadn't heard before. What's the purpose of that?
     
  31. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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  32. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    There is a pulling across action involved. The reason you can't agree with this is because you've never tried it therefore you can't see it. I've been there. Also it's also more natural for the racquet to continue on a straight(er) path if you rotate because of the momentum (depending on how you swing). It will fly out to the right relative to the body as you rotate.

    Look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4

    fed is pulling to the left just before he makes contact. you can see the side spin on the ball.
    His torso has stopped rotating before he makes contact. therefore the racquet is not 'following his body around'.
    His arm has not reached 100% full extension away from his body at contact. therefore if he did not actively pull across his arm would have continued a little more forward before coming across. (assuming he's playing loose)

    With those points in mind watch the vid and you can see the pull across.
    It's most evident in the 3rd fh and the last fh.

    You don't pull across violently. Just a small tug and the direction change increases the rhs.

    That's because he has flaws in his stroke. I pull across and my head doesn't turn. Fed's doesn't either.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes, but we are talking about stepping in with the left foot towards the ball, before pivoting on it with the right into semi open. In cricket, it is called "getting into the line of the ball" even though the stroke may be hit off the back foot.

    There is a difference between

    1. standing parallel to the baseline followed by a unit turn with sideways upper body and hitting pure open with the feet still parallel to the baseline

    and

    2. standing parallel to the baseline and making the unit turn turn the upper body as well as place the right foot behind left into semi-open

    and

    3. stepping in towards the ball with the left foot from the ready position, hitting closed stance and then bringing the right foot partially or fully around

    and

    4. stepping in towards the ball with the left foot, pivoting the right foot out and then hitting semi-open and bringing the right foot partially or fully around

    and

    5. doing (2) followed by (3)

    All 5 are done, with the last 4 being the most common, the first is done when pros don't have time on quick and deep balls at the expense of loss of power.

    IMO, these 5 movements have not been studied and explained properly, leading to loose usage of "open" and "closed."
     
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    You didn't know about that? It is famous in this forum. There was a guy who claimed to be a student of a Professor in China and the claim was that Federer and other top pros hit multiple times off the strings. After the first hit, in an instant of a second, the racquet apparently moves so fast that it "catches up" with the ball and hits it again. He claimed that was the secret of Fed's success. Also, this was just a part of the Professor's research into a new kind of motion descriptor beyond velocity and acceleration.

    We had lots of fun with him. After 1 round of abuse, he would wait, and then surface with the same ideas again, and again. Then he vanished for good.
     
  35. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Good grief, Sureshs! Your post is 75% bull s h i t. The other 25% is horseshit. That's not how it's done in tennis. In tennis, on a righty forehand, you measure the ball with your right foot, then step to the left with your left foot as you swing the racquet. There's no pivoting on the left foot.
     
  36. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I copied these images from jumpulse.com several years ago.

    [​IMG]

    If I remember correctly, they claimed that these pictures proved that the ball bounced off the strings twice. I don’t see it, but maybe I’m wrong?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  37. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I kind of see it. Need higher frame rate to be sure

     
  38. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Try a google search on jumpulse. Much of it may have been deleted from the TW forums but this theory/nonsense can be found on other tennis & golf forums and elsewhere. I thought that it also showed up on the BC badminton forum but I don't see any sign of it now.
     
  39. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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  40. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I believe the frame rate was 1000fps.:confused:
     
  41. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Mate if it works for you its fine, but your over complicating your stroke.

    Federer does not pull across his body, from the link video its obvious that pronation is occurring just before impact, his forehand comes over the top.

    The arm joints to the shoulder, the shoulder is the axis in which the arm rotates. Once it hits its maximum point whether bent or straight, it has to come back.

    His torso has slowed down, his arm is still accelerating but his forearm is accelerating at a tremendous pace, due to pronation. Once pronation occurs, his arm backs back in, shoulder comes around and it "looks" like his pulling across.

    The last shot, where his at full extension and the ball is at shoulder height is the most obvious that his not pulling across, his weight transference is obviously forward.
     
  42. connico

    connico Rookie

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    haha, so Wagner quotes "some guy" on a forum... yeah that speaks of his research skills. The first rule of research is, if you quote it, make sure its from a publish paper and you can reference it.

    Nothing against Wagner, I am sure his a good coach. But some of the things he speaks about, I can't agree with. If it works for people than fine; but over complicating tennis just proliferates incorrect technique.
     
  43. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I agree with this. I think the "across" impression is caused by the unit turn, not the arm swing which is up and forward to extension. Then, the elbow bends and the arm and racquet come back to the other side and the upper body continues to rotate. The actual path of the racquet may have a right to left element beginning just before contact. But, IMO, that's caused by unit turn, not by the swing path created by the arm.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  44. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    it works for me. i transfer my weight forward and not to the left as oscar says and i don't jerk my whole body to the left like the guy in that video. that's excessive and seems like he'd get tired after 3 games. what i do is just before impact i give a little tug to the left as i'm pronating of course (using my lats maybe? biceps?) which accelerates the head a little more and adds the sidespin. what i do is only like a little one inch tug. i used to not do the pulling thing until about 3 months ago after deciding to try it one day after being bombarded with all the MTM pull across posts here. it adds a little more pace and gives more sidespin. before that i would only get sidespin by scooping on the outside of the ball.

    to me it certainly looks like fed is pulling over in addition to his pronation.
    i didn't believe it either until i went out and tried it. i suggest some of you try it.

    ask suresh. he's seen my sidespin :)

    and actually i'm not saying that 100% for sure this is what fed et al are actually doing. but i like it.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  45. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Side spin is a result of the modern forehand, how much side spin is dependent on the angle of approach.

    I'll give it a try, I am open to learning. But I have doubts due to my work with bio-mechanics with my coach. I will need a little bit more description. Wagner says to pull across, but he does not say what to actually pull across?

    Is it the forearm that you pull across, or the biceps or the shoulder? What needs to be jerked to the side and how does it need to be jerked
     
  46. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i think i use my forearm. i don't use shoulder because that made my head move and it throws you sideways like in oscar's vid.

    i first tried it with the bicep like in oscar's vid there but that seems to cut off the extension of the arm and to me it doesn't seem like pros do that except maybe ferrer who really looks to be using his biceps there and doesn't get a lot of extension.

    so now i just tug just a little bit to the left as im pronating right before contact. just a teeeny bit. the racquet and energy are still going forward through the ball, i can keep my head still, everything is the same except the racquet speeds up more right at the moment of truth and it adds more sidespin than i had before.

    i have to warn you though that you might not want to spend more than like 10-20 strokes on it if you are against it because when i first tried it it became engrained in my stroke real quick. i even tried to get rid of it because i found that i was doing even when not trying because i wasn't sure that's what the pros were doing. then the next day out i'd be hitting and suddenly realize i'm pulling over. so now i just go with it and probably will until the mass majority here peer pressures me into submission and relinquishment.
     
  47. connico

    connico Rookie

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    So is pulling the forearm across, like the wind shield wiper forehand where your creating a kind of hyper pronation?
     
  48. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes. i have a dbl bend fh with extreme sw. so as i pronate and the head is just about to brush up i put a little pressure towards the left. that's how i got it to work w/o giving up any extension or forward energy transfer or making my stroke look different. the pull is really slight. hardly any energy at all required. about the same effort as if you were to push a book one inch as it was laying on table. not at all like what that jumping guy was doing in the video. but once you pull it like that the racquet speeds up. that's my findings anyway.

    and another thing it does is that your weight is definitely going to move more to the left after contact than it used to. it's still moving forward during the hit but that little tug at the last moment will make your arm go faster than you are used to and you will end up with your weight on your left every time.

    i'm not sure if that's how the mtm guys teach it so maybe they can comment about it.
     
  49. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Remember, the ball itself is compressing on the hit and expanding. This vibration mode (like a spring) could cause some appearance of a double hit on the lower quality video (vs. what we use in aerospace tests), but there is no double hit.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  50. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    You guys need to stop posting......and go outside.......and PLAY TENNIS!!
     
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