Thank you Oscar Wegnar!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by guitarplayer, May 23, 2012.

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  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I did last nite, and got back.

    Our posting is inspired by the playing, and our playing by the posting.
     
  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Don't remind me of it again. That was the first time I twisted by back trying to reach it. Second time was at the net when your topspin dipped.
     
  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Lots of choice in words can be used to describe it and there is room to an extent for
    your own personal flare. There is some discussion of how to use the biceps and pecs.
    As you have experienced, it helps you to accel the racket in a near effortless manner,
    that can be very consistent in presenting the strings to the ball.
    Training not to over do the rt to left thing is a key to adding quality to the shot
    without subtracting quality in the process. I do this by a focus on keeping the head back and
    focused on the contact area so you dont over rotate and pull off the ball like many detractors
    are concerned about.
    That left to rt can really help with recovery on the Fh side of the court, but has to be managed
    a bit when on Bh side hitting I/O.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  4. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    Vicious cycle!!!!
     
  5. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Heretic        
     
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And that is an advanced skill not many adults have - to impart sufficient force in the required direction, especially on DTL shots, while swinging across. I myself can do it only with a swing limited to above the left of the forehead.
     
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Funny how you would advance your theory here as fact, where I will answer with
    experience teaching many adults this with little to no problem;
    That I don't agree with your conjecture.
    Maybe you feel this way due to your own perceived limitations experienced
    without a modern instructor?

    Seems the myth persist with rookies to many experienced instructors,
    that modern strokes require near violent effort, excellent range of motion, or
    super coordination to work, while the truth is they can be extremely relaxed,
    very easy, and very natural for most players.
     
  8. CheekyMullet

    CheekyMullet New User

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    Thank you very much Cheetah and 5263! Yesterday was def the best practice session I have had for months. It would drive me mad watching competent players warm up because I just couldn't understand how they get this easy power. Up and across is the key and you don't have to swing hard with your arm if you have proper weight transfer. I used to have problems with chest/shoulder high balls and usually I would just loop them back but yesterday I really thought about opening my stance and how Fed transfers his weight in that video Cheetah posted and was very happy with the results - chest high balls had much flatter trajectory with top and a little side spin. Still have to practice a lot to get the timing and consistency but primary results look promising :)
     
  9. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    If you watch andy Murray play he actually does the pull to the left with a less pronounced take back and hits it earlier in the rise quite a bit. He will catch it really early and redirect with top and side spin. It is a very common stroke variation on the pro tour. Mainly the men. Wta not so much.

    I do it a lot on balls coming to me with a lot of pace and top. I can absorb and redirect the ball pretty much anywhere doing this. CC or dtl. Even inside out fh with a lot of side spin.

     
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is all very easy to post on internet, but I would rather go by someone recognized and accountable like Peter Burwash who advises against it for most adults and cautions of injuries. I know it is fashionable to put down fame and fortune as being possibly due to marketing and all that, but at the end of the day he is known and verifiable and not afraid to put it in writing, and I tend to go by that.
     
  11. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Burwash is just hedging and marketing with this.
    In his book, he promotes the open stance and acknowledges it's superiority.
    He is just throwing that out for folks like you, who are not of a mindset for change,
    and to touch a broader audience.
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Again, misinformation without even reading the article or my comments. Go back and read them. I have noted that he promotes open stance by Borg as the modern way to hit topspin which should be emulated by club players - even has a photo of him. He was talking about the across-the-body finish in this case. I can read accurately and not blinded by trying to promote something, so I can accept both his comments, while you have just shown how you did not even read what I wrote.
     
  13. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I read them and neither are written particularly well and yours shows that
    you don't understand how to hit dtl.
     
  14. Lambo

    Lambo Banned

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    this technique makes sense and sounds incredible. Only problem I have when I tried it was using too much wrist when I was trying to pull the racq across the body. I have wrist issues with my game anyways (to much instead of shoulder) so this kind of limits my implementation of this stroke. Any suggestions?
     
  15. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Would these be the comments you're referring to? Because I read them and responded accordingly. But, you ignored my response.

     
  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Obviously not. I was referring to my notes on Peter Burwash's article, not in this thread, where he recommends Borg as the forehand model, yet cautions against club players using the across the body finish. Everything is not about you.
     
  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Not in this thread? What's so obvious about that? What is obvious is that Burwash is wrong. Club players include a wide range of talent and skills. Perhaps his comments were made when 65si, 14oz wood racquets were the standard. :rolleyes: If that's the case, his opinion on the subject is moot.
     
  18. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Agree, but my injured body isn't cooperating.
     
  19. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Tried it out twice in seperate ocassions, tried a few different methods to get the same result. Even tried the jump around method. Definately works to an extent; but has a few flaws from my experience

    Positives;
    - Exaggerates pronation when your using the forearm to pull across.
    - Seems to improve consistency due to increased pronation, top spin / side spin
    - Induces more side spin than otherwise produced. Good kick in shots but the side spin induced sometimes lets the recover have more time.

    Negatives
    - Restrict full pronation, reducing pace and penetration of shot. Found the balls landing short, poping height.
    - Moving side ways is unnatural; causes the body to do funny things. Notably the head shifts around more, balance is affected when hitting shots in mid air or on your toes. Reduced recovery time
    - High balls, its impossible to induce the same results due taking the ball in greater than shoulder height.
    - Makes you want to jerk your whole body to follow the motion.
    - Issue with hitting low balls for some reason cant figure it out
    - Not a good thing on return of 1st serve, as my return of serves are minimilistic and only utilises pronation.


    Observations (not neg or positive)
    - Requires more energy to do in the arm, its actually feels unnatural to me and I got fatigued doing it.
    - Being an experiment, my wrist isnt like the new action sometimes also timing needs to be adjusted as your delaying contact slighly.
    - Ball flight changes if you over do it.
    - Often it makes me finish higher instead of across and below my shoulder
    - does not work for all shots around the court, e.g. stretched forehands; at the feet shots, high short balls (put away balls), low balls, strong penetrating slice (side spend does something funny coming off the string bed)
    - had to adjust aim of off-forehand, would also see the off-forehand bound back into the count instead of accelerate off the court? maybe over doing it.


    Conclusion, won't be adopting it. But its not a bad thing if used by a moderate player looking to improve pronation. The body shifting left thing is BS still.
     
  20. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No, his comments were made in this issue of the magazine. Why don't you read before you post? He is well-known, verifiable, and respected - you are an anonymous poster here - I think I will go with his comments any day as they spring from experience rather than trying to win an argument here (and they are specific).
     
  21. Fastpace Ace

    Fastpace Ace Professional

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    I went to one of Oscar's private clinics 2 years ago. He is such a nice person and a brilliant teacher.
     
  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Probably most 0f your problem with it
    is indicated above.

    Using more arm to do it, shows it's not being done correctly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  23. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Words or letters left out of the post? Can you clarify it?
     
  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    yes, thanks
    edited

    Probably most 0f your problem with it is indicated above.
     
  25. theblueark

    theblueark New User

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    Lol I haven't read suresh's posts in a while but his posts have not become any less retarded.

    Quick, post a rally between federer and anyone and count how many times federer does (1) and how many times he does (1).

    I can't be bothered to because suresh will ignore it and say we misunderstood what he said. He ACTUALLY meant "sometimes" he hits (2). "Most common" ACTUALLY means "there are times". And we're the ones with problems understanding what he's saying.
     
  26. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    It just shows where he, like most, don't understand that most of what the good ones do is compensate when they are not hitting from the open stance so that the stance they are caught in can work more like the open stance.
     
  27. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    They would be the same. Ever heard of a subject called mathematics? x = x?
     
  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Wait a minute. You are the one who said open and semi open are the same (probably because Oscar is never clear about that). Now are you trying to say they are different?

    A pure open stance does not provide any leverage into the ball from the feet. It is similar to someone sitting on a stool and using upper body only. A semi open has the right foot behind the left. It is not a compensating position, and is actually the most commonly used stance, along with closed (the modern version with right foot rotating in later).

    It seems to the basic problem of this methodology - when pointed out that it is statistically invalid based on the evidence, the twist provided is that it is because pros actually wish they they did not hit this way.
     
  29. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Well his not clear on how you actually do the motion. All he says is to pull across. A good teacher would point what needs to be done when talking about it....

    Pulling across with your body did not seem the right way to do it. If I am adding to my swing by pulling across which is not natural, than its going to work some different muscle in my body. Thus I would naturally get fatigue regardless...

    How is it done???
     
  30. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2012
  31. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    That thing is good for a laugh. We saw it earlier and it just got laughed at and people posted pics of ironing boards to say they can make there own. 5263 also tried to post a vid of Nalbandian to say he used it or it produces swings like his I honestly dont remember his point I just remember laughing at him.
     
  32. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    When were these putative comments made? During the wood racquet era?
     
  33. theblueark

    theblueark New User

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    Haha you're so funny you kill me. I made a mistake, a typo.

    See how easy it is to admit to a mistake? I'm not sure what you find so difficult about it.

    Now go watch a video of any rally between 2 top pros and count how many of each of your 5 movements and show us how (2) to (5) is more common than (1).

    Let me make a prediction. No video from you. Then I'll post a video. Then you'll either disappear from this thread, ignore what's in the video, or proclaim that we understood you wrongly.
     
  34. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    whats with the new guy and why is he so mad at suresh?
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    yes you don't remember a lot. You not understanding and laughing is a good thing.
     
  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Never said anything remotely differently. Semi Open is a subset of open stance.

    Because you don't understand the dynamics of open stance has little to do with
    how it works or not. Clearly it works well and is understood by many; at least on a basis of
    how to use it.
     
  37. TonLars

    TonLars Professional

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    Hey Limpin, I see a very small resemblance, but otherwise I dont think the two strokes are very comparable. Thats just me I guess. Maybe in a very broad sense in terms of not being a true windshield wiper.
     
  38. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    Have you tried it? Those who use it as a training tool know that it works very well at all levels.
     
  39. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    It is a very effective training tool, used for players of all levels. It is also useful in clinics as a diagnostic tool.

    Those who have mocked and criticized it in the past have not actually used it. Those who have used it know what a great teaching aid it is.
     
  40. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Lawl... surely you jest???
     
  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I find it very curious. Many such new guys have been popping up with nothing to contribute and reply to selected posts only. Very suspicious.
     
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have not seen or heard of a single player who uses the ironing board.
     
  43. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    Just weird. seems whenever we get a new guy they target specific people. Not even targeting the thread just people. Its kinda annoying and makes things look funky.

    Not a single top player has used it. So I cant agree its a great teaching tool. I mock useless things that are designed to do nothing more than make bad players spend money.

    Guess thats why I dont like mtm.:)
     
  44. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ........................................................
     
  45. theblueark

    theblueark New User

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    Tadaa, I'm psychic, no video. You're the one with nothing to contribute.

    I have contributed a video of a rally between Federer and Blake showing they take the racquet back on the bounce on a thread discussing take backs.

    I have contributed physics equations on a physics thread on racquet power.

    And today, I contribute another video analysing 2 things. Racquet take back, and stance during contact point.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz10ZocUcvU

    The video clearly shows the pros (Federer and Djokovic) take their racquet back most often as the ball is bouncing.

    The video also clearly shows the pros favour Open and Semi-open stances on the forehand.

    Now I invite you to comment on the evidence.

    I don't post much, because I usually don't have that much to add to the all the advice given. You can see my join date, I didn't just pop up last month. I'm curious what you think you contributed apart from ad nauseum repetitions of "the pros take the racquet back early" and "the pros step into the ball" with no supporting evidence and even in spite of evidence to the contrary.
     
  46. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    So you have been around for a little under a year yet now all the sudden feel the need to attack someone out of the blue? Thats pretty odd thats how you chose to start posting after almost a year.

    It could be the case as this internet is a weird place but it sounds just really odd.
     
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    And I have posted so many links of take back before the bounce, take back after the bounce, open, semi open, and closed stances, center hits, hits below the center, hits above the center.

    Go back and see 5 links of mine, 4 closed stance of Fed, Nadal and Li Na, and one open stance of Fed. I am not going to repeat them for guys like you who start your first post with abuse. Go dig them up yourself or get lost. Either way, it doesn't matter to me.

    I don't pick and choose only one video or photo to argue. I can see all sides of an argument and the problem with people selling only one thing as a magic solution to everything.
     
  48. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Then he has found his niche because the entire group seems to be really odd.
     
  49. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, YOU want to call posters odd?? hahahaha
    Now that is the pot calling the kettle, lol.
    Is it so odd that blueark would get irked by 3.5 expert?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
  50. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    But maintaining the illusion of freedom can be useful.
     
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