Thank you Oscar Wegnar!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by guitarplayer, May 23, 2012.

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  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think mods are clamping down on threads which mention coaches by name in an attempt to boost them, because you never know who are students and who are coaches doing it for publicity.
     
  2. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Some people here are just reading things in a way that makes it hard to use due
    to their view of certain terms. They are reasonable folks too.
    Some others on here are going to take it in way that can that make it not work due
    to their negative views on Oscar.
    Some are going to understand his intent here and get the point.
     
  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with what you say here. I saw a pro vid on youtube yesterday that
    this tip is meant to address. The pro was suggesting to get the racket fully
    back, pointing to the fence, in early preparation. Maybe I can find it again.
     
  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is the problem. 5263 works around it by saying that the sideways position of the racket after the unit turn is OK before the bounce, and it is only the full takeback that should not happen till after the bounce. However, Oscar does not seem to say that as far as I can see. Moreover, he also seems to advocate only a short back and forth swing of the racket all the time. Let us for a moment assume that Oscar does allow racket sideways from unit turn before bounce. EVEN THEN, a short back and forth swing from that position is certainly not acceptable even at the club level, and is practiced only by very senior citizens in not good health wielding huge frames and amounts to jabbing the ball, which is all you can do with a quick short swing. There is a reason manufacturers rate their frames according to swing length, and players frames are recommended for those with smooth and long swings. How a short back and forth swing is taught as what the pros do is not clear and is just wrong.
     
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not really, as there is no problem. I'm not working around anything...just taking
    the tip as intended and not trying to paint it into a corner like a lawyer as you
    seem to want to.

    As to the short compact swing...the RPT vid with Pato advocated much the
    same short swing and showed finding the ball with the hand very much like
    Oscar does. He also advocated teaching the open stance early on and good
    net clearance as well, along with many other mtm type items. Maybe the Spanish
    system has not gotten too far away over the years after all.
     
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    You did not answer the question. Pros do NOT hit with short back and forth swings except in certain situations like close to the net.
     
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Didn't notice any question and like I said, Pato used the hammer concept to
    show this in a very similar fashion. Seems the Spanish are using it pretty well
    still.
     
  8. Tenisfan

    Tenisfan Guest

    Misleading interpretation - watching this player carefully in person (not just one still frame in isolation) demonstrates how she uses MTM, and her level of play shows the efficacy of MTM coaching.
     
  9. Tenisfan

    Tenisfan Guest


    I don't understand why the following was deleted, but I may go the way of Playnice if this idea for a thread is rejected...

    "Previous threads concerning Oscar Wegner's Modern Tennis Methodology have focused on theory and opinion, but few posters have contributed with accounts of actual personal experience with the method's techniques.

    The purpose of this (new) thread (MTM - Let's Give It A Try) is to establish a dialogue based solely on actual on-court experience utilizing the basic precepts of MTM. Please limit your remarks to this theme, and kindly refrain from personal evaluations, attacks, or critiques based on heresay, untested opinions or prejudice.

    I corresponded with Playnice whose position is that she has contributed sufficiently with her own experiences and those of her students in describing how MTM works and the results it can achieve. Perhaps other MTM instructors, non-MTM coaches, players or parents would like to share their experiences using the method to make it more real to the readers.

    I have never read any post by a player or coach on Talk Tennis (or anwhere else) who declared that, having actually used the method correctly applied (IE: under the supervision of a legitimately certified MTM coach), MTM did not produce positive results. It has worked for me and a handful of other players who have posted their results on Talk Tennis. It would be interesting to hear from more players who have used Mr. Wegner's book only, written or video tips, clips from his TV show, DVDs or any combination of those materials, as well as anyone who has taken lessons from an MTM certified coach, or Oscar himself. This feedback will undoubtedly benefit not only TT readers but MTM practitioners as well.

    In this way we can have some meaningful dialogue about the efficacy of MTM as a teaching system as a whole or via its component parts based on actual experience, which will surely be of help to players seeking tennis tips/instruction here. Perhaps Mr. Wegner himself will occasionally contribute as well.

    Any mention of products or services (equipment, training tools, events, facilities, etc) related to MTM should not be taken as a solicitation or worded as such. If a poster has had a positive experience with any product or service that would necessarily be an endorsement of sorts, but need not be interpreted as a sales pitch or be in violation of the TT board rules if appropriately described.

    The intention is to offer testimonial accounts based on real experience, not to persuade the reader that this system is superior. Enough has been written on previous threads to make and dispute that claim. The only thing I would like to encourage posters to do via ithis thread is try out the basics of Mr. Wegner's methodology, then decide for themselves what is true for them and share it for the benefit of others. I make no predictions of players' outcomes, and I do not suggest this as any kind of contest or attempt to prove anyone right or wrong. I would simply like to cut through all the rhetoric previously delivered about Mr. Wegner and his method and confine any discussion to actual positive results, which is, after all, what we are all seeking.

    Let's create a learning environment and stay on topic here."
     
  10. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Tenis Fan

    If you have never heard of a negative response, maybe you should scroll up and read the post from Balla about the effects of MTM.

    And while you are at it, can you clarify your exact relationship to MTM and Oscar. It seems Play Nice's was different than represented.
     
  11. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    It was me, they dumped it quickly. Stupid.
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think use of "Oscar" and "MTM" in the title may be regarded as blatant advertising. I saw that my thread on "Coaches corner" had no takers perhaps because it cannot be used to advertise one particular commercial product.
     
  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    As if you could not roll it into your other thread. Mods were right.
     
  14. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    From the guy with 20,000 posts!
     
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I didn't use your thread because I don't do this to advertise. I'm here to offer tips
    and instruction. It just happens that about half of what comes up relates to
    the MTM technique, although I also have many post on strategy, drills, and
    targets. I give a reference when it is proper if I can whether it is Limpin, RPT, JY or Oscar.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    but not 20000 threads
     
  17. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    The unit turn happens early on every ball. On a really deep ball, one basically hits from the unit turn, there's no additional backswing.That's all there is to it.

    Of course, one can take a bigger backswing and start the forward swing before the ball bounces. If the ball bounces as you expect, great. If not, tough toenails. If you swing from the unit turn after the ball bounces, you may not get as much power as you might have if you had swung early from a big backswing and guessed right, but the percentages will be against you. I would much rather wait at the unit turn for really deep balls pitching near my feet and swing late rather than start the forward swing while the ball is still in the air.
     
  18. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    It seems you basically agree with me at least about unit turn. But, Oscar says we should start the unit turn “back and forth to get momentum on the racquet” after ball’s bounce. Thus, Oscar’s advice is misleading!!!

    Btw, what means “a small rotation of the upper body and hands back and forth”?
    How many degrees: 10°, 20° . . . 90° and how many hands we must rotate? Again there is something wrong with this recommendation. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  19. connico

    connico Rookie

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    Sorry can you further explain this statement?
     
  20. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Well, there are no hard and fast rules... individuals will vary.
     
  21. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    What I mean is that in the situation where the ball bounces very close to the player, there is no need for any additional backswing beyond the body turn (or unit turn). Again, keep in mind this is an adaptive game, and depending on the situation and the individual, the stroke will vary - so what I am saying is one possible way of playing.
     
  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is only true for very deep balls at your feet, where you can probably feed off the pace of the incoming ball. It is not even true for slower moonballed deep balls where you need to generate your own power.

    If you are constantly getting deep hard balls at your level, it means that your opponent is owning you. Either you should start attacking, or you should move back and swing harder to break the cycle, instead of blocking it back which is essentially all you are doing.

    In any case, a special situation of blocking back a deep hard ball is the basis of an entire philosophy of a short swing after the bounce? That is why it is difficult to take this methodology seriously.
     
  23. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Every player knows that such balls can be blocked back with a short backswing, like a service return.

    At least you acknowledge its limited usefulness and not claim it as a teaching philosophy for the forehand. Heck, you don't even have to teach this, it is a reflexive action even at the 3.5 level.
     
  24. Tenisfan

    Tenisfan Guest

    Why would you refer a student to a coach whom you do not personally know and trust in terms of his ability?

    You claim to have seen the effects of a different approach in said girl's FH stroke after the first lesson. How did she progress in subsequent lessons?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2012
  25. Tenisfan

    Tenisfan Guest

    If the student that Balla alleges had negative results from her MTM training, her parent could (and should) contact Oscar Wegner directly. He stands by his product and if a coach he has certified is not living up to his standards, Mr. Wegner deserves to know about it. Otherwise, Balla's story is just another piece of propaganda intended to discredit MTM. In my (deleted) thread I invited people to share first-hand experience, but since it is not deemed valuable here I guess I'll find another venue for that discussion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2012
  26. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Play Nice,

    Tenis fan is chivalrous in your opinion?

    The definition is showing courtesy and graciousness. I think you need another adjective.
     
  27. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ................................
     
  28. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    opps looks like a few posts got whacked... a second ago Tenis Fan was telling me to pick on someone my own size--not sure what his is--and play nice was thanking him for chivalrous behavior.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  29. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    one more try.

    I find it odd that a guy that claims no connection to MTM is telling people to contact Oscar if not happy with their product.

    Also that he only posts about Oscar and pushes the MTM product whenever he can. Something just doesnt sit right there.

    If MTM does have a positive message to put out about the way they teach and the differences maybe find a better way to do so. By attacking other coaches and falsely crediting Oscar for others is not gonna help promote. Try being courteous and honest and see where that gets you.

    When you constantly make false accounts and then cry wolf it doesnt paint your group in a very positive light. If I was a professional coach i wouldnt wanna attach my career to this and thats really what you guys want is coaches to join your group and spread your product. However your behavior has been pretty poor with your product attached so why would any coach worth anything connect his career to that?
     
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Whether the parent contacts Oscar or not is none of your business (or balla's). The idea is strange. If a parent does not like a coach, should they contact the USPTA? I think most people understand that this is not the BBB and can separate individual coaches from their certifications.

    And you are absolutely mean and nasty when you suggest that unless the parent contacts Oscar, then balla's post is propaganda. Where do you come up with this? Why is balla responsible for someone talking to Oscar?

    Your ideas are ridiculous and if your claim of having no connection to MTM is correct, then they are all the more ridiculous.
     
  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Very odd.............
     
  32. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Suresh,

    Agreed. If anyone criticizing mtm or some obvious technical issue like the mtm misunderstanding of preparation this is some type of moral incident.

    As the video of the little girl and toly's still showed, even a young child can feel you don't wait for the bounce to move the racket.

    Balla points that out and then his credibility is under attack.
     
  33. Tenisfan

    Tenisfan Guest

    Good Bye and Good Luck

    I do not "push any product, attack anyone, make false accounts, cry wolf" and I do have or participate in any "group". I don't have any product to attach to anything. Where do you come up with these statements?

    Playnice signed off on this insanity by quitting this forum saying "it's been fun" and quoting Shakespere:

    "This above all: to thine own self be true,
    And it must follow, as the night the day,
    Thou canst not then be false to any man.
    Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!"

    Now that is really threatening and had to be deleted. Amazing. I am gone as well, and in my opinion, the demonstration of prejudice, intolernace, ignorance and mean-spirited attacks have not been fun. You could learn something from Oscar Wegner and MTM. Being incapable of looking and trying it out is your loss. This will probably get deleted too. LOL Adios!
     
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It was deleted because mods do not like to prolong discussions about people who are no longer members, not because of quoting Shakespeare.

    Your tactic of reposting deleted posts is a way of bypassing the system and insulting the moderators. I hope they take action against you.
     
  35. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    TF,

    That'll be great and maybe we can get back to tennis now if you two guys really stay away for good.

    The characterizations you like to throw around--not so sure they are describing the correct side in the debate:

    "prejudice, intolerance, ignorance and mean-spirited attacks"
     
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