The 2012 ATP Player of the year on the line?

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by tennis_pro, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Both Federer and Djokovic won 1 major, 3 Masters and 6 titles overall this year. Is it fair to say (despite what the rankings say) that if Federer wins tomorrow he should be regarded as the "unofficial" no 1 for 2012?
     
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  2. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    No, Djokovic is the better player for 2012, even if Federer double-Golden-sets him tomorrow.
     
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  3. Strategy

    Strategy Semi-Pro

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    Obviously that's not fair to say. Djokovic was the better player in 2012.
     
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  4. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    I honestly think if Fed wins he should get it. 1 slam, 3 masters, sliver medal, 2 minor tournys and the WTF.
    By comparison Nole has 1 slam, 3 masters, 1 minor tourny and lost in the bronze medal match
     
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  5. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    If you go by the big titles won, and Federer wins tomorrow, I cannot see how you could be even remotedly right.
     
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  6. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Federer if he won, would have more big titles, Djokovic greater consitency. But age 25 vs 31, I would expect Novak to be more consistant. So yeah, I think it would be Federer..
     
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  7. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

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    The rankings don't lie Fedards.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    This is fair, although Nole has been better at Slams.
     
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  9. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    No, I like watching Federer more but Djokovic has been the better player year round. Those 3 finals at majors count. And the only time he didn't make it to the final, he lost to the eventual champion (Federer at Wimbledon). He also made the finals of 6 masters tournaments (winning 3). Djokovic is the legit #1 player.
     
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  10. Warmaster

    Warmaster Hall of Fame

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    Ranking = consistency. You can't argue with that. It's only fair that Djokovic is number 1.
     
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  11. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Djokovic has been the better player at Slams by some distance. And he's been far more consistent. If the ATP-point-difference was sort of low, you could make a case for Federer, but it's too high to do anything of the sort. FFS, even in this tournament, Djokovic has won all 4 of his matches while Federer lost 1. It doesn't get any more obvious.
     
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  12. Ico

    Ico Hall of Fame

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    In my opinion, yes, it's on the line tomorrow. Djokovic has the YE#1 ranking, but Federer has the most prestigious slam and an Olympic medal. The WTF title would put either man over the edge.
     
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  13. Warmaster

    Warmaster Hall of Fame

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    It just depends on what you feel is the most important. Title-wise, you'd have to give it to Federer should he win tomorrow.

    But the ranking is first and foremost about consistency and as such you just can't ignore Djokovic' 3 major finals.
     
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  14. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    I feel people grossly underrate final-appearances, whether it's in Grand Slams, or even Masters 1000 tournaments. You make a Grand Slam final appearance, your place in history is secured. That's the way I see it.
     
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  15. Candide

    Candide Professional

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    It'll be a moral victory for Federer if he wins this baby. Perhaps not as sweet as finishing the year off as number one but a hell of a nice compensation. It'll leave Djokovic looking a bit silly. Looks like the king is not quite dead yet.
     
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  16. DragonBlaze

    DragonBlaze Hall of Fame

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    You could make the argument that what Fed did this year would be relatively speaking more impressive than what Djoker did, given their respective ages and point in their careers.

    However that doesn't mean Fed was the best player of the year, that would still be Djokovic.
     
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  17. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Exactly.

    20exactlys.
     
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  18. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    This match reminds me a little bit of sampras-agassi at year end tournament in germany

    Agassi was #1 but pete wanted to show him who the real #1was.

    Sampras owned agassi in the final.
     
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  19. DragonBlaze

    DragonBlaze Hall of Fame

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    Imagine how AWESOME it would have been if this match truly was to decide No. 1. I was really hoping such a scenario would happen, but alas Federer sucked post-Cincy so couldn't put himself in a position to do that.
     
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  20. Ico

    Ico Hall of Fame

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    Yes. We all remember the glorious runs of Verkerk, Berasategui, Warwick, Denton, Lewis, and co. right?
     
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  21. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Depends on the "we", right? If you want to research Tennis history and watch some matches, what would you watch? Grand Slam finals. Not WTF or Masters 1000 or Olympic finals.
     
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  22. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    I take the WTF over a major final, thank you very much.
     
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  23. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Sure you would. But most wouldn't.
     
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  24. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    I'd take a major final over a random Masters title, though.

    Winning the Tour finals means that you beat at least 4 top 10 player to get the title AND that you actually won it.

    You might "fluke" a major final, though, if you're lucky with the draw. What has Verkerk done other than his 2003 FO final run (he beat some great clay courter on the way - I'll give him that)? Did you even know that a player like Verkerk existed before checking him out on wiki?

    People remember winners and winners only. As I said earlier, I'd still take a major final over a Masters just because these are tour titles. Big ones but still "tour" tournaments. The WTF is more prestigious because of the format, points at stake and no fluke draws.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  25. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Bull. Novak finishes the year #1. That was the challenge. Other than that Novak outperformed Fed in slams. Better slam perfs + #1 means Novak is player of the year, period. (They may give the award to Fed if he wins though just because it's amazing to have that kind of a season at 30+)
     
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  26. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    What if Federer won 2 majors, lost in the first round twice while Djokovic made all 4 finals? Which results would you take?

    Btw nobody's questioning Djokovic's year-end ranking, it's well deserved and he's the no 1 player of 2012.

    Still, if you look at the big picture, especially if Federer wins tomorrow, you might start to wonder - Federer has the same number of majors and Masters but has also the WTF and more titles overall (and a positive h2h against Djokovic assuming he wins).
     
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  27. RF-17-GOAT

    RF-17-GOAT Semi-Pro

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    It's on the line my brothers, and Fed's gonna get it!
     
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  28. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Federer, obviously, because he would have won 2 Slams to Djokovic's 0. But that's not the case, is it? Both won 1 Slam apiece, but Djokovic has made 2 additional finals. That's a big deal. To put it in perspective, do you know how many players have managed 3 Grand Slam finals in the same year? It's a remarkable achievement.

    And the head-to-head means squat. That's rich coming from a Federer-fan, I tell you.
     
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  29. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Fed's. 2 wins > 0 win. You only start comparing finals if the # of wins are equal. This year though that is not what happened. They both had 1 win but Djoko made semi in all slams and has 2 finals on top.
    I agree that WTF would be the cherry on Fed's cake. It would make his season exceptional particularly in view of his age BUT # 1 + better perf in slams (1 title + 2 finals) to me overtakes #2 + WTF. It would put them close though, almost equal.
     
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  30. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I think it should go to Djokovic either way. A Fed win tomorrow would cast doubt on Djoker's title, however.
     
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  31. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Well Federer made 3 major finals in 2008 yet finished the year at no 2.
     
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  32. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    He won just 1 Slam compared to Nadal's 2. And Nadal made 2 Slam finals that year, unlike Federer who's made just 1 this year. Come on, give it up.
     
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  33. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Doubt? Lol. 6 master finals + 3 slam finals + WTF final doesn't cast any doubt. The only thing a Fed WTF win would tell is that Fed is a better indoor player than Djoko. Big deal. That's something we already know from the stats anyway. That is not more important than slam stats. And Djoko beat Fed at AO and USO the last 4 times they met.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  34. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    I should have said, a Fed win tomorrow would be funny as hell. That way, I could have avoided all the hate. :lol:

    Don't be surprised if Fed is awarded the honor if he does win, although I would think it is unfair. Be sure to write a strongly worded email to the ATP about that outrage if it does happen.
     
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  35. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I have no problem if ATP give the award to Fed. I'd understand why. Because it would be a tour de force to manage such a successful season at 31. Fine. But objectively and without considering ages, Djoko's 2012 has been better than Fed's 2012.
     
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  36. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    So who would be your WTA player of the year in 2011, following your own logic that is?
     
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  37. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Oh man let's not start comparing WTA and ATP. No one is capable of dominating for any length of time in WTA these days.
     
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  38. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    I don't care enough about WTA to bother giving you my picks.
     
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  39. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    You don't care because your logic applied to it wouldn't put the then year-end-no-1 (Wozniacki) as the WTA player of the year, she didn't even reach a major final that year and twice lost before the 4th round yet she ended the year ranked 1st.

    As for the h2h against Federer-Djokovic (as you said "rich for a Fed fan") I'd use it only because they would be so close to each other in the rankings. For example Nadal had a 4-2 lead over Federer in 2006 but Federer had like double the ranking points so it wasn't the case.
     
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  40. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    luckily Serena is starting to play well for an extended period of time
     
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  41. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    I don't care because I don't care. Have you ever seen me discuss Women's Tennis here, except for Graf's time? No. Why? Because I don't care.

    And I never said Slams are the only things that matter. The WTF, the Olympics, and the Masters 1000 tournaments matter too. So do the Masters 500 tournaments. But 2 Grand Slam finals is a big deficit. Bigger than a WTF title and a Masters 1000 title.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
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  42. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    THEY ALREADY AWARDED NOVAK DJOKOVIC WITH THE PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARD ALONG WITH THE ARTHUR ASHE HUMANITARIAN AWARD.

    GO TO ATP YOUTUBE........KAY! :)
    /thread end fishished destroyed
     
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  43. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    Well Djokovic being number one player is because he was more consistant in slams, so it's kind of the same point. But I'd say if Federer wins the WTF, Djokovic would be the more consistant player and deserving number one, but Federer would have won more big titles, and be the better winner.

    Don't get the point of bringing up Djokovic winning the last 4 times at USO and AO combined? Federer beat Djokovic at Wimbledon and RG 1 out of 2 times, might as well just say Djokovic won 5 out of the last 7, but even this has nothing to do with this year in which they are 1-1 at slams, both in titles and H2H. And better indoor player + better grass player + in terms of WINNING titles, better clay thanks to madrid. Point is in terms of winning titles, they've all had the chance across every surface, if Federer has managed to equal Djokovic without Indoor and then better him with it, it proves he's been better at winning titles.
     
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  44. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Except WTF doesn't equal a slam, not even remotely. Once again, I'm sorry but 6 master finals + 3 slam finals supercedes 3 master finals + 1 slam final any time (even with WTF on top). The second part was just a reply as to Fed beating Djoko at WTF throwing DOUBTS on Djoko's season. It doesn't. I quoted the slams on hard because 4 consecutive wins in slams is definitely better than a win at WTF (on that surface) no matter how you look at it. And once again WTF doesn't equal a slam.
     
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  45. monfed

    monfed Guest

    If Fed wins the WTF,then he's POTY for me. At 31,he's still hanging with these guys in an era of slow surfaces and grinding, are you kidding me?
     
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  46. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    From that angle sure + it would put Fed as title leader for the year with 7 titles (tie with Ferrer :)) I think they should both get POTY. The year of the veterans. 2013 will be Connors big come back the way things are going...
     
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  47. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    I'm not saying a wtf comes close to a slam, but it does top a slam final. I mean a slam final is great but it's still being a loser, where as a wtf title is winning in a field of top 8 players. I sure think Djokovic's 2008 TMC title was better than Federer's RG final :lol: In fact that year Federer made 3 slams finals winning 1, 2 masters finals, Djokovic won 1 slam no other finals 2 masters and a wtf. I'd say even without his masters win just the WTF and slam beats slam and 2 slam finals.

    But again, the last 4 hardcourt slam wins over Federer takes in to account 2011 and even 2008!... that is not relevant to this season. I mean if we're going to go right back to 2008 then we have to add in 5 slams for Federer, 2 WTF titles, several masters..

    In fact since 2008 Fed has won all 4 majors. Like Djokovic's last 4 HC slam meeting victories, it has no bearing on this season though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
    #47
  48. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    I think the rankings are as good of an indicator of the player of the year as anything. The only thing that conflicts with it is the Olympics because it isn't worth much points but is very prestigious, but if that is to be considered heavily then Murray needs to be brought into the conversation. Anyways, I'd say no matter what happens tomorrow Djokovic is clearly the winner of this year. That is not to take anything away from the amazing year Fed has had though.
     
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  49. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Murray cannot be brought into the conversation with only 3 titles total (one of them a 250).
     
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  50. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Fed was asked this question (slightly differently) before the tournament began and he said NO :

    http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=84792

    Q. It's been a tough season. You, Novak and Andy are very close. Do you think winning the Masters can decide the real No.1 of the season?

    ROGER FEDERER: I mean, the real No.1, we know who that is. It's going to be Novak. I don't think there should be any debate around that.
    I think No. 1, you don't get there by chance. The rankings is something that shows you how you've played over a 365‑day period. Okay, it might all change again in two months at the Australian Open, there's no doubt about that. But right now, it's clear.

    I don't think whatever happens should take anything away from anybody. This is a bonus for the top eight players to face off against each other, try their very best, and hopefully finish the season in good style. Obviously it's exciting to see.

    /thread
     
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