The best backhand ever?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by theagassiman, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    You'll have to go back in time and buy the same Frame Rosewall and Tilden were using. These were much more technoligically advanced frames that are no longer allowed by the ITF.
     
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Nobody disputes the fact the 163 mph reading is a part of history; it's been recorded that Tilden's serve was measured at that speed, in 1931, using the techniques then available. That fact has been stated in the past and it can be stated today as a fact without believing in the accuracy of the reading.

    But your statement is very simple:

    "It's a FACT, that historians, much like your BS, claim that Tilden hit 163 mph serves."

    That means that historians today currently assert that Tilden really hit his serves at 163 mph. Your statement does not say that they made this assertion in the past. Your statement does not say that they're merely reporting the 163 mph reading (anyone can report that without believing the accuracy of the measurement). You state merely that historians (not past greats) assert today that Tilden really hit serves that traveled at 163 mph.

    So who are these historians? We can check what they're saying in print to see if they really still believe in the accuracy in the reading (no one disputes that they may have believed it in the past, before modern methods of measuring mph).

    Pancho Gonzales, besides not being a historian of the game, passed away in 1995, so he can't currently assert anything about Tilden.
     
  3. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Around 1975, Colin Dibley was measured with his serve for 250 km per hour. If Rosewall hits a perfect drive (with a little underspin) off such a serve, why he shouldn't reach 80 miles. I am no physician, but i cannot see that a ball should lose so much speed on the return, if the return is perfectly hit. And Rosewall had a very heavy backhand, as tested by all opponents, including current commentator Drysdale who wrote an article about the backhand of Rosewall in old Tennis Mag.
     
  4. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    I don't think any reputable poster takes Drakulie seriously....his lies/obsfucation and ignorance betray him. On a serious note though, Kros, I have never heard anyone give weight to Tilden's 163mph measurement. I recall physicist Howard Brody giving consideration to another high Tilden reading from 1927, but he wasn't convinced of that one either...and I certainly was not.
     
  5. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Yes. I think that the proliferation of good topspin backhands has made the drive slice.....unnecessary....but having said that, it never hurts to have more in your arsenal. Not only that, but these days, I think a great drive-slice might be the ideal approach. Topspin approaches are passe....unless it's almost a winner, the guys are too used to topspin, and it sits up nicely in everyone's strike zone...it is simply...typical. A heavily underspun slice, can be OKish....but it loses so much speed, and the guys are so good at hitting topspin, they have time to get on it, and then get under it, and fire away, I just don't think it's consistently a great idea....

    I think a great drive slice, with excellent pace, (which will also dictate excellent depth with this kind of shot), will stay low (or even lower), skid though, and have speed. Not the easiest shot in the world to hit, but could still be effective today. Again, ironically, the 2 handed Connors used this against modern players with his 2 hander, flat, or mild slice approach drives to the net.
     
  6. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    ^^^ The lies, false premises and strawmen of Drakulie the troll! We're all still waiting for that evidence that long arms are stronger than short arms!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  7. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Oh, I see. You want to play stupid little games. Well, I already gave you two who are still alive (Collins, bodo).

    I'll also give you two current "historians" right here on these boards who make just as stupid remarks about players and achievements they never came close to accomplishing:

    Limpinhitter and Datacipher who both swear Rosewall hit 80+ mph slice backhands, and on another note:::::: Datacipher, who claims a friend of his hits them over 100 mph.

    On 2 separate occasions I've answered your question. Now, please provide evidence of Rosewall hitting 80+ mph slice backhands.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  8. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Ok, I had enough fun with these claims about player serving at at the speed of 163 and slicing bh at 80 mph. But I think we should stop with this nonsense. And slice > 100mph? That's impossible...I don't care even if a player have a bionic arm or the arm length of Michael Phelps.
     
  9. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    That is Tilden in the roaring 20s. Base on that picture, his physique doesn't look any stronger than a player like the Roddick today. For him to be able to serve 160+ but Roddick and the rest of the tour players can't even come close, it must be the racquet. And if that's the case, today's players would certainly try out those ancient racquet on the pro tour, but none of them did. I'm 5' 7" and don't have much power on my serve. But if I can add additional 20mph on my serve that would definitly give me an edge against my friends. Certainly it would help the pro players.
     
  10. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Another malicious lie. I have never sworn that.
     
  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Your original statement again:

    "It's a FACT, that historians, much like your BS, claim that Tilden hit 163 mph serves."

    Now, if you want to revise this statement to restrict it only to the past, you’re perfectly welcome to do so now. You could say, “Historians used to claim that Tilden’s serves traveled at 163 mph, but they no longer do so.”

    Of course, that would be pointless, because everybody knows that Tilden was once claimed to serve that fast. No one disputes that such a claim has been made in the past. The only reason we’re talking about now, is that it was asserted at some point. (And because you’ve kept the claim alive). But you’re clearly accusing the tennis community of still pushing the 163 mph nonsense today – not that they’re merely reporting that the technology of the time came up with a reading of 163 mph, which is a fact that any historian can report blamelessly – but that they’re asserting that Tilden’s serves really traveled at 163 mph. That they’re making this assertion today.

    So these are your two historians who are still asserting today that Tilden’s serves really traveled at 163 mph? Collins and Bodo?

    The Bud Collins Encyclopedia lists the fastest serve of all time as Roddick’s, 155 mph, against Voltchov, 2004 Davis Cup. Bud certainly goes back to the time when Tilden’s reading was still regarded as plausible, and if he once asserted that the reading was accurate, that would be no surprise at all. But where in his current writings is he asserting that Tilden’s serves really traveled at 163 mph? Where in Bodo’s?

    Let’s have quotes -- exact references.
     
  12. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Your actual words have been, to put it charitably, exaggerated. It's "grown in the telling", so to speak. What you actually said has now grown into the story that you swore that the backhand traveled at 80 mph.

    It's ironic that he positions himself as someone who hates exaggerated claims in tennis' past (or the present day) but on this board he's an absolute fan of repeating back other people's arguments in a manner as exaggerated as possible, in order to heap as much ridicule on them as he can.
     
  13. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Yes, thanks Krosero....it's almost a wonder...how many threads has he brought this up in? How many times? I do wonder how sad his life must be...seriously! Again, part of the game he plays, along with the other dishonest ploys, like the "you failed to offer proof!" tactic.

    In any case, only the posters, like yourself, that are genuinely interested in real discourse, make posting anything here worthwhile.

    Note: On the subject of Collins, in an interview I once saw Bud mention an old extremely high serve measurement, and then he specifically chuckled a bit about it, and with a sly grin, noted the methodology used back then! So while I haven't heard him say anything specifically about Tilden's 163mph, I doubt very much that he would make concrete claims about that measurement.

    Of course...the horrible irony is that many of the same posters who dismiss old measurements out of hand, (not just improbable, and unreliable ones like Tilden's...but much more recent measurements like Tanner's), fail to recognize that the radar measurements of the last 20 years must also be taken with skepticism, particularly in cross-event comparison! (eg. No really...Dent serves 3mph faster than Lopez! Rusedski was THE fastest of all time until...... etc etc)

    In the end, many of the posters here don't realize it, but they are operating on not much more than blind faith, accepting whatever data confirms their own beliefs! Oh well...that's TW ;-)
     
  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I remember reading when I first got into tennis, in the mid 80s, that one of Tilden's serves was once measured at 163 mph. I'm pretty sure I saw it at least once in the Guiness Book of World Records, back then. Whether more modern readings were offered there as alternative records, I can't remember, though I can't recall anytime since I've been playing tennis that Tilden's 163 mph was unequivocally called, within the tennis community, the fastest serve of all time. For as along as I can remember there have been more than 1 candidate for the fastest serve of all time: Tilden was in there but so were others from the 70s. Becker's, too, after he came up in '85. And all these other serves had claims under 163 mph, which tells you right there that the reading on Tilden's serve was surely questioned.

    Now I've got a 1998 edition of the Guiness Book of World Records, and the fastest serve is listed as Philippoussis, 142.3 mph in Dusseldorf, May 25, 1997.

    There's no mention of Tilden.

    So we do know that the legend of the 163 mph serve lasted, and was given some (perhaps qualified) credence at least by some people, into the 1980s. Who knows how Guinness certifies such a record in tennis (did they speak to many historians? just one? just called someone at the ATP main office?), but at least we can say by 1998 they couldn't find very many reputable historians still asserting that Tilden's serves traveled at 163 mph (and that's presuming they found even one such historian or authority).
     
  15. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Why on earth would I want to revise a statement I made, which IS a fact, and you have already acknowledged?


    Now, if you will be so kind as to provide proof of Rosewall hitting 80+ mph slice backhands, I will glady appreciate it.
     
  16. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Get your story straight. Limpinhitter claimed, and continues to do so, that Rosewall hit 80+ mph slice backhands. Datacipher, came in and agreed, and also stated he has a friend who hit them 100+ mph. And if you need the proof, here is his quote:


    Now, please provide proof of Rosewall hitting 80+ mph slice backhands.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  17. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Drakulie,

    You KNOW no one has proof that Rosewall hit 80 mile per hour backhands. It is not going to happen. They didn't time groundies in those days. So no one can possibly give you any proof.

    The other thing is Rosewall hit FLAT backhands, not a heavily sliced backhand. Is it really that unreasonable to believe that he could hit a strong serve return solidly at least on occasion and blast it back at 80 miles an hour? With all the big servers he faced, from Pancho Gonzalez, Roscoe Tanner, Stan Smith, John Newcombe and even Ivan Lendl (in a practice set) I would think he had to hit a backhand a few times back at extremely fast speeds. And again I cannot show evidence of this.

    I have seen Rosewall hit some very hard hit backhands but in watching them at the time I never even considered the speed of the shots.

    Let's me ask this? Do you think Jimmy Connors ever hit 80 mph backhands? I think he did at times but I can't prove it. No one can prove it. People have spoke with awe about Connors' returns of Roscoe Tanner's serves in the 1975 Wimbledon semi and that the balls returned faster than they were served. So I would tend to think the returns were faster than 80 mph but I can't prove it.

    I think Laver hit some incredibly fast backhands but do I think he hit it over 80 mile per hour at times and the key words are "at times?" I don't know for sure but I think so. Here's a quote from John Newcombe's book about Laver's backhand.

    I cannot prove that Laver backhand was faster than 80 mph but I would tend to think it was. I did see it on television and I recall the ball was served and then all of a sudden in a blink the return was hit for winner.
    I believe the Newcombe book was written in the late 1990's so it wasn't that long ago.
    I don't think Tilden served at 163 mph but I do think if he was around today in his prime he could probably serve over 130 mph at least.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  18. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    If you're not revising your statement to restrict it to the past, then you're statement is about the present day: so it remains on you to provide quotes showing that Collins and Bodo are still asserting in the present day that Tilden's serves really traveled at 163 mph.

    (Hint: referring to claims made by two internet posters who were talking about backhands is not, in any way, shape, or form, evidence that Collins and Bodo are asserting today that Tilden's serves traveled at 163 mph).
     
  19. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    What's not going to happen is anyone ever convincing me that Rosewall hit *SLICE* backhands (80+ mph) faster than pros today hit drive groundies.

    datacipher and limpinhitter claimed they were *SLICE* backhands. Not my fault they don't know the difference. Take it up with them.

    Not going to respond to the rest of your post, because it is insignificant to the issue.

    I already stated, I'm not revising it. I said it, and you acknowledged it's truth.

    Now, provide evidence.
     
  20. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I acknowledged that historians in the past have asserted that Tilden's serves traveled at 163 mph. I have never agreed (of course: this is too obvious to need stating) that historians today continue to assert that Tilden's serves traveled at 163 mph. That's your claim, and yours to back up.
     
  21. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I already stated this. Thanks for the recap (for the hundredth time) :roll:

    Now, please provide proof of Rosewall hitting 80+ mph slice backhands.

    Thanks!
     
  22. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Thanks for that, and for the bit about Bud Collins.

    Speaking of more recent mph readings, I found this online from the Guinness Book of World Records (1987, 1989 and 1992 editions):

    The fastest service timed with modern equipment is 222 km/h 138 mph by Steve Denton (USA) (b. 5 Sep 1956) at Beaver Creek, Colorado, USA on 29 Jul 1984. The fastest ever measured was one of 263 km/h 163.6mph by William Tatem Tilden (USA) (1893-1953) in 1931.
     
  23. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    "OH WHEN THOSE TROLLS
    GO TROLLING IN
    OH WHEN THOSE TROLLS GO TROLLING IN . . . ."
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  24. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Now, PLEEEEEASE provide proof that long arms are more powerful than short arms!!!! Where's the proof? The prooooooof!!!!
     
  25. SusanDK

    SusanDK Semi-Pro

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  26. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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  27. SusanDK

    SusanDK Semi-Pro

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    Exactly. I hope you realized I wasn't trying to give you a bad time. :)
     
  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I can't believe what I'm reading. All this time many have bragged about how today's benefitted from an advanced racquet that can produces tremendous spins and power. But now a 1920s wooden racquet can generate 163mph serve when not a single pro players can remotely come close. How is it possible for a supposively new and improved modern racquet get worsen? Or is it this whole discussion was simply a contradiction.:confused:
     
  29. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I suggest that you try reading the thread again, but this time, ignore Drakulie. All of your confusion and misunderstanding will be cleared up.
     
  30. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    TMF - none of us here assert that Tilden hit serves at 163 mph. At most some of us have reported that his serves were measured at that speed in 1931 using the measuring equipment then available. But PC1, Limpinhitter, Datacipher and myself have all said here on this board -- some of us in this thread -- that we do not believe Tilden served that fast. Some of us have even said so to Drakulie himself.

    I did report in this thread some sources like the Guinness Book of World Records in the 1980s and 90s, which mentioned Tilden's serve as the fastest ever measured (but not the fastest measured with modern equipment). I certainly did not post these things in support of the idea that Tilden's serves actually traveled at 163 mph. I posted them to show what kind of support was given in the past to the 163 mph claim. None of us here believe that Tilden could have served that fast.
     
  31. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I believe that someone measuring a serve back then would have used film footage. (We did this in junior high school physics classes.) What you do is photograph the serve with a movie camera, shooting the ball traveling from the baseline to the net (or some other fixed point) over a measured known distance. Then you see how many frames it takes to travel that distance.

    One problem is that movie film cameras at that time had different speeds: 16 frames per second or 18 fps or even 24 fps with sound cameras. One also has to assume a constant film speed with no variation.

    It is also only trustworthy if the plotting and measuring are extremely accurate. It is also prone to error if the image of the ball is blurred on the film causing mis-measuring.

    It can be reliable, but only if done repeatedly with similar results every time.

    (P.S. Why are we talking about serves in this thread?)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  32. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Actually, I'm the one who originally said that Rosewall could hit underspin backhand returns of serve up to about 80mph. (Data mentioned a friend who he thought could hit a bh sitter up to 100 mph). I've seen Rosewall live on a few occasions, and I stand by my estimate. Obviously, I didn't come to those matches with a radar gun or a camcorder (that hadn't been invented yet). But, Trollulie, having no life, no real friends, all the time in the world, nothing better to do, and most importantly, no integrity, seized upon it and has continually trolled, exaggerated and lied about what Data and I have said ever since.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  33. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Because Trollulie hijacked the thread!
     
  34. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    To get back sort of on track, here are some of my favorite backhands to watch.

    In no order
    Laver
    Rosewall
    Borg
    Ashe
    Edberg
    Nalbanian
    Orantes
    Mecir
    Djokovic
    Connors
    Agassi
    Vilas
    Lendl
    Wilander
    Murray
     
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Of current players, I like to watch the backhands of Gasquet and Almagro.
     
  36. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    My Favorites both genders.
    The men
    Connors
    Edberg
    Federer
    Rosewall
    Chang
    Mecir
    McEnroe
    Stich
    Laver
    Vilas

    The ladies (Ignored too much in this thread.)
    Evert
    Hingis
    Sabatini
    Mandlikova
    Seles
    Goolagong
    Navratilova
    Davenport
    Novatna
    Sanchez
    King

    A few I wish I had seen: Tilden, Gonzales and Drysdale, Bueno, Connolly and Wills
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  37. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Wawrinka has a sweet backhand, too!
     
  38. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Virginia Wade and Rosie Casals had some beautiful back hands!
     
  39. Trillus

    Trillus Banned

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    Navratilova and Novotna making the list? Novotna, especialy?? Is that an actual order too, are you really rating Novotna's backhand over Sanchez's or Navratilova's over Davenport. And what about the Williams and Henin who should all make the list, all 3 certainly have far stronger backhands than Navratilova, Novotna, or even King ever had.

    And Hana seems quite highly rated considering how inconsistent her backhand (and virtually all her shots) was, and that her forehand was actually her more damaging side.
     
  40. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Yes, thanks for the summary. I was going to go back and repost quotes from the old thread, but I am sure that most respected posters, like Krosero, will know who is telling the truth.

    In any case, I made no claims about Rosewall...simply don't feel qualified to, however, I have little doubt (as I stated in that thread) that Rosewall could have potentially hit an 80mph slice backhand. As I said, then, I doubt he would have situations in which he could hit that very often, but as I said, I have seen one go AT LEAST that fast. Though, as I elaborated on EXTENSIVELY, the fomer world-class junior and junior Davis cup player who could do that, was hitting easy, high, short sitters, with a motion, almost comparable to a backhand overhead (which you and the article you posted actually eluded to...not specifically but at least in the way I interpret it).

    In addition, I mentioned that some of Rosewall's backhands were known to be "flat"....just as the 100mph overhead/backhand this guy hit were.

    AND finally, as we all agreed (except Drakulie of course) since there can be no "proof" we have to agree to disagree. Again, I realized, and fully admitted my claim may seem implausible to some, but it should be less so after describing the stroke in detail. Further, people who have read my posts over the years, know that I know a thing or two about tennis, playing, and coaching, AND speed measurements. I stand by my estimation of his speed, that is indeed, why it was so unbelievably shocking to see.....and i have been ON COURT with world-class players. I have just never seen anybody hit a "slice" BH, even a putaway, like that, before or since. In the end, though, people have to decide if I know what I"m talking about or not. That's fine. If someone doesn't believe me, then....who cares! lol.


    In any case, after 1000 Drakulie trolls, once again, I restate some of this...for perhaps the 10th time??
     
  41. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    Kros, you're right also about the issue of numerous claims to "record" or record-like speeds. And yes, there has always been skepticism!

    Sangster was once recorded at 154 mph, Colin Dibley hit 148 mph, but even he questions that measurement (it was a high speed photography system...and a number of top pros went head-to-head...Tanner got 2nd place at 142? if memory serves...and that is NOT an unreasonable number for him).

    There was even a German scientist who had a team of engineers record him at 200mph! The measurement apparently happened, but few put credibility in it.

    So the subject of measurement has usually been open to debate among the most thoughtful, as far as I know. Actually, Sangster and Dibley's claims are really not that unreasonable, given who they are....certainly if we give credence to Roddick at 155mph, or Rusedski at 149mph....then it is conceivable that either of them could have been in that range. There are other serve specialists, who had high number measurements, that I am inclined to give weight to, NOT as comparable to other measurements eg. he was 7mph slower than Roddick.....but simply as indicators of extremely fast speed, likely comparable to the very fastest today. Like Steve Denton, Scott Warner, and many others....

    Very difficult to say though....both Roddick and Rusedski's record numbers were subject to some skepticism themselves! Some from other players who were at the events! Roddick himself seemed to suggest a bit of doubt! lol.

    Not only that, but even if Roddick and Rusedksi did hit those numbers, we might well be skeptical, if we didn't have multiple matches over multiple years, confirming high end speeds.....There have been matches, for example, numerous matches, were Rusedski topped out in the 120's, and averaged around 110-115mph.....if I had only seen those matches, would I believe he hit 149mph?? Andy usually goes for big speed....yet there are enitre years where he hasn't gone remotely near 155mph. In fact, he to, has had many, many matches where he did not reach 135mph.

    In any case, it matters not, this is another Drakulie troll tactic and outright lie. I haven't seen a single person, certainly not among the regulars, advocating for the 163mph measurement as accurate.
     
  42. ae695

    ae695 Rookie

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    Aesthetically, Albert Costa.
     
  43. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    The biggest wood frame servers I've ever seen were John Alexander and Colin Dibley who, I would estimate, were consistently hitting first serves in the 130's in there respective matches, as big or bigger than the typical first serves I've seen Sampras hit. One match I saw Alexander play was against Stan Smith, who also had a big serve, and Alexander's serve was significantly bigger and more effective in that match. When I saw Tanner live he was using an aluminum frame with a plastic throat. He was also serving at least as big as Alexander and Dibley. What left an impression on me was how high his serves were hitting the back fence. I was a pretty cocky junior and I couldn't imagine facing a serve like that.
     
  44. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    True, but I rarely get the opportunity to see it. (It seems that his matches are seldom televised in the US.)
     
  45. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    Bill Cosby
     
  46. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    No need for you to go back, as I already did it for you, but here it is again:


     
  47. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    That's a nice recount of some of those players LH. Here's Roscoe with that metal PDP in 1978. Also, remember Butch Walts?

    http://en.origin.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Wa/B/Butch-Walts.aspx

    [​IMG]


    See this info on John Alexander (see: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-124961.html, http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Al/J/John-G-Alexander.aspx, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Alexander_(tennis)) . Mr. Alexander is a current Aussie politician by the way who says the loss of courts in Australia is "killing" Aussie tennis prospects.

    Info on the "National Fast Serve Challenge Tour"
    from: http://nfsctour.com/big.html
     
  48. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    I remember Butch for my dad loved his game. He also liked Pfister, Denton and Amaya for their big serves.I like Bill Scanlon ,his game was very much a finesse game and his tecnique and shotmaking were sometimes surreal.
     
  49. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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  50. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    That's right, you know first-hand what the difference was between your words and Data's. You claimed something happened. Data said your claim was plausible. Drakulie, for sarcasm's sake, or whatever, tosses aside this important distinction and says you "both swear Rosewall hit 80+ mph slice backhands". That's exactly how people get impugned with arguments they've never made: which I happen to think might just be an issue of some tiny importance.

    I think by now the 80 mph claim has been mentioned on this board dozens of times, and if we're not in the hundreds yet we are fast approaching it. But the vast majority of those times are Drakulie introducing it into threads; or repeating it ad nauseum no matter what is being said; or using it to try to win other arguments. The number of times that I've actually seen you introduce your claim independently in conversation are, what, just a handful of times. So of course Drakulie's reaction is out of all proportion -- and of course it's a juvenile way to disagree with something. I saw him once put it into a thread just at the mere mention of Rosewall's name (I think it was a thread about the best claycourters); and if that is not dropping bait in classic troll fashion, I don't know what is.

    I think someone else once suggested to you not to take the bait. If I recall correctly, soon after this whole 80 mph BH debate started last summer, Drakulie kept it up but you went silent for a little while and I thought you were ignoring him (which you've just confirmed in the other thread). Ignoring trolling is usually the best way to go. But of course he kept it up -- just like he keeps throwing the 163 mph bait at people even after they've told him directly that they don't believe it. He just has chosen certain sticks to throw at us and he adores them; if you left this forum and no one else ever made the claim, I think chances are excellent that for years afterward all we would have to do is sneeze and he would jump in with:

    "Yeah, right, and I'm sure Tilden served at 163 mph :roll: And Rosewall hit slice backhands at 80 mph, I'm sure :roll:"

    So I think the chances of him disagreeing with the 80 mph claim in a mature way (and anyone certainly has the right to do that) are next to nil. JMHO! The chances that he'll stop using it as a way to inflame discussions (to troll) -- well, I'm not holding my breath. So, even though, frankly, I do not enjoy many of the insults you use (particularly the way you quickly jump to the mouth-breathing insult with many posters), I can't fault you for defending yourself when someone is clearly, clearly following you around and seeking a fight with you. Particularly if so few people are defending you.

    But Limpin, and I'm not saying this just to be gratuitous or to tell you what to do or anything -- it's just because I think it's been a genuine problem -- I think you'd be well served to hold back on the insults with the average poster. I'm not standing as your judge on the Drakulie issue because I have never walked in your shoes; in your position I might have done similar things to defend myself, I don't know; but there are other posters here who may be young or modern fans but who do have respect for the older era and can be engaged respectfully (I'm just going to pick out one, ABMK, because I know from personal interaction that he's well worth engaging respectfully; but there are others).

    That's all I wanted to say.

    And this: like Data and PC1, and Borg #1 and perhaps others, I think the 80 mph claim, may or may not be right, but it's worth discussing maturely and it certainly did not deserve months of ridicule.
     

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