The change in style from S&V to baseline play about 10 years ago.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Wangtang1, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. Wangtang1

    Wangtang1 Rookie

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    I don't know a huge amount about stuff like this. Was this just a natural evolution as the players got used to the new rackets that were introduced during the late 80s or were the courts all slowed down?

    You see Federer do a lot of S&V against Sampras. Did this change from S&V to the baseline play mean a lot of young players who were originally hyped up suddenly went crap? Or was it usually the case that anyone who was originally good at S&V was probably talented enough to hit from the baseline?
     
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  2. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    There was also a cultural change from a more Anglo-American style of serve and volley to more Continental baseline style of play with the ascendancy of continental European tennis.

    Baseline tennis had been coming since Borg, but took twenty years to become triumphant. Federer is the 'transitional figure' in this development.
     
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  3. BeHappy

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    The courts were slowed down, meaning aggressive players in general, either at the baseline or net, can't win against pushers like Roddick, Murray, Djokovic or Nadal anymore.
     
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  4. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    In other words Sampras would not have been talented enough to make the transition
     
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  5. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    A combination of a small narrowing of the surfaces, and different racquet and string technology which enables much better return of serves and thus makes life more uncomfortable for anyone who would attempt serve and volley on a regular basis.
     
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  6. TennisLovaLova

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    At my modest tennis amateur level: I just tried the rpm blast on my racquet and I was playing against a s&v guy. I've never returned his serves better. My guess is that rbm blast helps a lot in returns and spin. It was weird, because we had more baseline rallies than before...
     
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  7. tudwell

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    Strings changed everything. Players can hit the ball harder than ever and still keep the ball in play. Tennis has really never been more difficult or impressive to play than it is today.
     
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  8. wings56

    wings56 Professional

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    lololololol.
     
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  9. Lsmkenpo

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    Complete nonsense, if racquet and string technology improved the return than it also improved the serve.

    Slower court speeds is the #1 reason S&V is not as viable a strategy now.
    Slower courts mean higher bounce, a higher bounce makes a passing shot much easier. The same reason S&V has never been a great strategy on clay.

    Gee, I wonder why S&V worked well at the Bercy tournament last year, you know the only tournament played the whole season on a true fast court. Did they force everyone to use old technology there or what?

    The average court speeds across the tour have never been slower in the history of the sport, that is the main reason S&V is harder to play.
     
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  10. Lsmkenpo

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    Another fallacy, many top players still use gut mains in their racquet including Federer and Djokovic. The same string that has been around for decades. Sure poly strings can give you about 5-10% more spin than a gut setup but poly isn't what killed S&V. It is slower court speeds.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
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  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The dominance of topspin groundstroke technique is the number one reason - made more lethal when amplified by new racquet and string technologies - and then the slower courts.

    Tennis is now a continental sport - a new kind of clay game.
     
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  12. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    It is not nonsense. Serving has improved in terms of power, but the returns are also better so there's not too many of the 1-2 shot rallies that were pretty commonplace at Wimbledon in the 1990s in matches between two big servers. The new technology has changed the dynamics of the game. The differences between the different surfaces has narrowed, but the extent of it is exaggerated by a lot of people. There are still clear differences between the different surfaces, just that it doesn't reflect a difference in terms of totally different style of play like it did in the past, when it was baseliner vs. serve and volleyer, and is instead more about tactics such as stepping into the court more or being well behind the baseline in the rallies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
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  13. Crazy man

    Crazy man Banned

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    Someone should sticky this post.



    Delete post.
     
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  14. Z-Man

    Z-Man Professional

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    I agree the slower courts and spiny strings have had an effect on strategy. Along with the courts, I wouldn't be surprised if the balls changed as well. Remember when everyone talked about how the points were too short, and it was making tennis boring--killing the sport? The courts changed in repsonse to the more powerful racquets--it just took a few years.

    Also, don't forget the effect of coaching and the international network of tennis academies. Kids are being coached to win in today's game on today's courts. If they sped courts up, it would still take several years for a new crop of pros to come along who grew up being coached for faster courts.

    Lastly, the grass and carpet seasons have shrunk, and the clay season has expanded. They even have clay tournaments in Europe after the French Open. That makes it even harder for a netrusher to survive on the tour.
     
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  15. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    There was far more clay tournaments in the 1990s than today. Have a look at Berasategui's match results and how many were on clay compared to other surfaces.
     
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  16. GOAT BAAH!!!

    GOAT BAAH!!! Professional

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    Baseline style is merely a transitional era between S&V and the turbo all court tennis that will sprout up in the next ten years.
     
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  17. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    No, it is clear you have little knowledge of the technical game, you are making biased assumptions for two reasons, number one you favor clay court tennis, number two you are a Nadal fan. you don't want to believe courts have been slowed because that would mean it has benefited your hero, plain and simple.

    It isn't just the return, use some commonsense, it is much harder to hit a decent approach shot and get to the net at anytime during a rally, because players have much more time to get to a ball, setup and hit a pass. The ball is bouncing higher which makes a passing shot much easier.

    A low bouncing fast ball is a tough pass no matter what kind of racquet or strings you use. If a court is fast you can come into the net off a good approach shot not just a serve.

    You are simply ignorant, if you don't know that courts have been slowed, the speeds are recorded and published, players and tournament directors attest to it. It is obvious why you want to downplay play it.

    Stick to what you know, that is posting useless clay court slanted stats from long ago.
     
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  18. BeHappy

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    Exactly right.
     
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  19. SLD76

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    Playing devil's advocate, someone remarked in another thread that "sampras said court speeds are around the same now as before".

    I dont believe that at all, but what of it.?
     
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  20. Lsmkenpo

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    Here we have modern players with modern equipment playing on a fast court. See the low bounce and fast speed, this has been completely eliminated from the game, by the homogenizing of surface speed. Players could S&V on a surface like this, I don't care what kind of equipment they have, a low fast bounce is tough to setup and hit great passing shots on.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MJZf3rxFLE

    I like old man Pete Sampras chances against prime Nadal on the above surface, I don't care what racquet or strings Nadal is using, he simply wouldn't get many chances to even hit a decent passing shot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
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  21. Lsmkenpo

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    I suspect it wouldn't take long for him to change his mind, especially if he stepped out on the grass at Wimbledon to play a competitive match right now.
     
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  22. Crazy man

    Crazy man Banned

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    Safin and Federer have both stated in past interviews that the reason nobody comes to the net anymore is because of the dramatic change in grass (the speed) . But a few nerds at a computer disagree, so it must be false.
     
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  23. tennis_balla

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    2 main reasons. First the slowing down of surface especially grass and secondly the strings. Players went from stringing their rackets with natural gut with tension in the mid 60's to Luxilon BB Alu being the main string of choice strung in the mid 50's (pounds of course). The lower tension resulted in a larger sweetspot, but the make up of poly strings allowed the players to take bigger cuts at the ball, thus resulting in more power. The strings offer tons of control and because they don't move lots of spin as well.
    The result of the string change and tension change plus the slowing down of the courts are big reasons serve and volley is not used as much nowadays.

    However, the baseline only game now too is obsolete and young players are trained to be comfortable in all areas if the court. This is huge down in Spain as they are training and pay equal attention to defensive balls, mid-court balls and net play. This will become more and more the norm within 5 years or so. Even Nadal, who the uneducated believe is one dimensional, has great volleys, and is not afraid of attacking and handling mid-court balls.
    Players games will still have tendencies at what they do well (forehand or serve, or defence) but their overall arsenal will be more developed and they will be capable all-court players.
     
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  24. Wilander Fan

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    Slower courts are a factor but the real killer is the strings. Even when players do try and S&V, you dont see the old half volley-put away combo. Its more like big serve and put away volley. Its too easy to hit dipping topspin shots now and players do the 2 shot pass where they force the player to volley up and then put away the easy passing shot.
     
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  25. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Wimbledon changed its grass because the new continental baseline game was still ill-adapted to grass so they had the choice between being a museum to an archaic form of the game made even more uninteresting by the huge serve or opening the court up to change.
     
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  26. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Topspin groundstrokes are first and foremost a revolution in the mastery and spread of a technique.
     
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  27. tennis_balla

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    Topspin is nothing new chief. Bill Tilden used topspin
     
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  28. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Mastery and spread does not mean novelty.

    Its the spread of the topspin game which means all equipment and surface innovations amplify this new universal.

    The anthropologists call this cultural diffusion and it does require innovators.
     
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  29. BeHappy

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    That has always been the way it was actually. Of all the top serve and volleyers of the last 30 years only McEnroe, Edberg and Rafter didn't have massive ridiculous serves. Everyone else like Becker, Sampras, Kraijeck, even Borg and Lendl had massive serves (125mph with the old speed guns).
     
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  30. Lsmkenpo

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    Players are able to hit that dipping topspin shot when they have time to setup due to a poor approach shot, volley or high bouncing slow surface, this has always been the case.

    On a fast court you will not see it nearly as much against a good S&V player, the approach shots will be faster and lower bouncing. A heavy dipping topspin shot becomes much harder to hit due to speed and trajectory of the ball on a fast court no matter what string or racquet you use. The dipping shot isn't what you want to hit if someone is already at net, this is a shot you use against someone that is transitioning to net.

    Once the player is at net, a lower trajectory shot that doesn't cross the net with the height of a heavy topspin shot is far superior. A great volleyer steps in and takes the ball before it starts to dip from topspin.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
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  31. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Yet Sampras stated when he was asked what Roger should do to beat Nadal, that he would try and be more aggressive and come in to the net more if it were him playing Nadal.

    Here is the YT video of Pete discussing that:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx0MtThBLjc
     
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  32. droliver

    droliver Semi-Pro

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    Actually, poly strings may impart more spin in part because they move so much which has been shown on high speed photography. One of the other ideas is that players have changed their strokes' mechanics in response to the stiff, low-powered response of the string rather then found a string to respond to their stroke.

    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringmovement.php
     
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  33. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Good point, a lot of people simply don't understand how strings work. The strings slide and return imparting spin. Poly strings return more energy and they do so in a much more coordinated manner do to their stiffness, furthermore this allows the strings to bit into the ball more as well.
     
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  34. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Sampras has a way better volley game though, Federer has no better volley game than Nadal, hate it or love it.
     
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  35. InspectorRacquet

    InspectorRacquet Semi-Pro

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    And that's where I believe you are wrong. Federer is definitely a better volleyer than Nadal. Nadal makes Federer look like a bad volleyer because Nadal makes amazing passing shots. Against anyone else, though, you can see Federer's sublime volley skills.
     
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  36. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    As far as looks go, Federer is above almost anyone. As far a results, that is a far different story. Any time it is Federer and Nadal at the net at the same time, you best odds are putting money on Nadal. Federer is not a S&V player, he does so just to try and mix it up once in a while, otherwise he should easily be able to do to Nadal and others exactly what Sampras is saying shouldn't he?
     
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  37. DRII

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    Its more of a case of both-and; instead of either-or.

    Its, both the homogenization of surfaces (due to customer demand I might add) and equipment technology (poly strings and lighter racquets).

    In your analysis (which is good, just one sided) you fail to ascertain and account for the tremendous difference in racquet head speed of today vs yesteryear. Because of the newer technology, players have much more racquet head speed, when hitting ground strokes, than they had in the past and can still keep the ball in play with greater spin, pace, and angle. The difference is not as great when it comes to serving and of course volleying due to the different ball trajectory at contact point.

    Also, grass is still fast - nearly as fast as before. Its the bounce that is different (its higher and more predictable) due to firmer undergrowth and foundation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2011
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  38. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    This is accurate and the techinology also conspires to make passings shots easier which has further led to the demise of serve and volley.
     
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  39. ultradr

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    That I'm not sure. Federer has adequate volleying skill. But I don't think
    he has the hand of volleyer. Nadal, although he doesn't volley much, sometimes
    show he has a great hand.
     
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  40. ultradr

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    I'm not sure string is #1 reason. Everything changed when Wimbldeon
    and US Open changed their surface between 2001-2003, when some
    S&Ver started to make mid-career change to baseline game. That, I'm
    100% sure, was definitely due to the surface change.
     
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  41. Lawn Tennis

    Lawn Tennis Semi-Pro

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    I feel a lot of great points were made with one thing being left out: The game of tennis was not mastered as much as it is today. What I'm saying is that had a large group of pros back then practiced and played tournaments from the baseline, the weaknesses of serve 'n volley would have been revealed just as it has now days. Obviously, the slower courts and better equipment help, but mostly I feel it was just undiscovered until the late 90s.
     
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  42. mattennis

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    I've been re-watching hundreds of matches from the 90s and I still don't know who said that 90s matches were boring serve and volley fests.

    There were very few players that made serve and volley on hard courts on first serves, and almost noone on second serves.

    In most than 95% of the hard court matches I have re-watched from the 90s, the huge majority of poinst were baseline points.

    Even Becker and Sampras didn't do serve and volley on second serves when playing on hard court outdoor (sometimes they didn't even on first serves) neither when playing on clay. At least on the majority of their matches until 1998.

    It is true that the rallyes started to get shorter and shorter in years like 98, 99, 00 (on hard court and specially on indoor carpet) but they were baseline shorter rallyes most of them (only a handful of players, like Krajicek, Rusedski, Rafter, Henman, Sampras...were doing serve and volley consistently on first serves, and sometimes on second serves mostly on grass and indoor carpet, at the end of the 90s, the rest were baseline players). Players started hitting with more and more power from the baseline, looking for winners baseline shots at the first or second shot of each rallye. But the huge majority of top-30 players were baseline players.

    So I would call 90s Era a "baseline players Era" because the huge majority of top-30 players were baseliners and the few who did serve and volley, did it on grass and indoor carpet, and much less on hard courts (specially on second serves) or on clay.

    Yesterday I watched Lendl-Becker Aus Open'91 Final and Lendl-Sampras Aus Open'94 R16 and those matches had every type of points. Many baseline exchanges (yes, neither Becker nor Sampras did serve and volley on second serves in those matches and sometimes neither even on first serves), many volleys to finish points at the net after a baseline exchange, serve and volley on first serves Sampras and Becker and a few times Lendl, all court fabulous points, everything.

    As I said, it started to change later, at the end of the 90s. If you watch Sampras-Agassi Miami'94, the huge majority of points are baseline exchanges, but they are longer points than their baseline exchanges points from their matches of 99 (for example). They both started to hit harder and harder (and many more players followed them) and baseline points started to last less and less (be shorter and shorter) because players were aiming winners almost from the get go.

    The slow down of the courts and balls made baseline points longer again. The strings and the huge amount of top-spin in the shots made baseline poinst even longer (because it is much more difficult to hit a clean winner off of a hugely top-spun coming ball), and all these things together killed the few all court players and serve and volley players that were extinguising anyway.

    But I still think that had they not slow down surfaces and balls, the few players that still were doing serve and volley and attacking the net well game, like Sampras, Rafter, Krajicek,....would have triumph as well against modern strings, because the type of super topspin shots needs more time to setup, and they can do it on slow high bouncing surfaces, but not so much on really fast courts.
     
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  43. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    They only happened on grass and carpet and in matches involving big servers, where there were a tonne of aces and service winners, the 1994 Wimbledon final between Sampras and Ivanisevic being the most obvious. The moaning about the "lack of rallies" nearly always happened at Wimbledon in the 1990s.
     
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  44. mattennis

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    Yes, I know, but still many people think it was everywhere.
     
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  45. droliver

    droliver Semi-Pro

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    I really enjoyed 1990's HC and clay tennis personally.

    Can we agree that 1990's grass courts was the low point for that particular surface in terms of tennis as a spectator sport? It was nigh unwatchable as it was so unbalanced between the serve and all other aspects of the game.

    Modern grass court tennis is actually really fun to watch as it's still rewards a more aggressive serve but is more even for all styles. Last summer's Nole V. Nadal match was stunning for the way the guys were striking the ball and defending. Crazy high quality stuff!
     
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  46. Crazy man

    Crazy man Banned

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    No.



    10 char.
     
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  47. tennis_balla

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    Yup, what I was referring to when I mentioned the strings not moving is they slide back to their original place. You don't get strings all over the place with poly like you do with syn gut.
    Also, I thought I mentioned that with the added control and spin players were able to take bigger cuts at the ball. Hmm maybe not, but the players adapted and took advantage of the poly strings.
     
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  48. Lsmkenpo

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    Matches in the 90's between players such as Andre Agassi, Michael Chang, Marcelos Rios, Yevgeny Kafelnikov, Gustavo Kuerten, Carlos Moya, Alex Corretja, Thomas Muster and Jim Courier became nothing but ace fests there was very little baseline play amongst these top players. Something had to be done to put a stop to it. 8)
     
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  49. Lsmkenpo

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    Nonsense, tennis at Wimbledon has never been worse than now, grass court tennis wasn't meant to be played defensively.

    It is supposed to be the surface that rewards aggressive play not defense.
     
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  50. mattennis

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    Look at this link (Indian Wells Final'95 )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEbjgzQJQl8&feature=related

    It looks quite slow and high bouncing hard court. Indian Wells and Miami have always been very slow and high bouncing hard courts (possibly the slowest hard courts on tour).

    If you watch this match between Agassi and Sampras, at least 70% of the points were baseline exchanges (that ended with Pete on the net, or the majority of the times with a baseline winner of anyone of this two players). But you had as well serve and volley points (almost all of Pete's first serves, around 30% of the points of the match), and in general an all court game.

    Watching this final I think this two tournaments (Indian Wells and Miami) probably have stayed mostly the same slow as they already were in the 90s.

    Pete and Andre hit very powerful baseline shots that should look faster than the extremely topspun shots of Nadal and Djokovic in this year Indian Wells and Miami finals, so it is not surprise that Nadal's and Djokovic's shots look more loopy and slower pace than those of Pete and Andre even though this court is probably just the same speed it was 15 years ago.

    But in the 90s other outdoor hard courts were much much faster than Indian Wells and Miami (Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Washington, USOPEN,...) and it is these ones (along with the Wimbledon grass and all indoor tournaments) that have slow down their hard court surfaces (indoor tournaments even stop using carpet).

    Today it is almost if every hard court (even indoor hard court) is as slow as Indian Wells and Miami are (and always have been).

    There have been a huge homogenization of all the hard courts, making almost all of them as slow as the slowest ones (IW and Miami), along with slowing down Wimbledon (not as much as many people think, the main factor probably is that now bounces higher and truer with a firmer soil) and the death of carpet.

    I agree with Lsmkempo that in the last two years, the only one fast court was Paris last year, and that if there were more courts like that, players like Nadal or Djokovic would have much more difficult to setup their hugely topspun forehand shots. In a really fast, low bouncing and skidding court, today's string would not have that much impact, because the players would have much less time to setup their shots and very compact and flat strokes would be better suited.

    On slow and high bouncing hard courts it is true that the new strings have had a great impact on the way the game is played.
     
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