The Dark Knight Rises stuff (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by TheLambsheadrep, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Good points as well. I don't remeber the exact line but in BB, Alfred made some kind of comment that Batman could create more potent criminals, etc.
     
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  2. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    1. good plothole. However, I have no cartilage in my knees and thought surgery was imminent but to make a long story short, I am doing miraculously better after drugs ,rehab, etc. but I could never do what the batman does even if i was 20. LOL. I am speculating but could enhanced braces be under his costume?
    2. another excellent point.
    3. Using the ropes never worked in an attempted escape. It was explained why and how to escape by the old prisioner. Talia asa child escaped by leaping onto the platform without ropes because of her mental attitude.
    4. already explained. It could be used by the wrong people as a very powerful nuclear weapon.

    This was my last post. I promise.
     
    #52
  3. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    remember how painful the brace was initially? it seemed to "crunch" and dig itself in his leg. I think it def could have been used under the batsuit, but then when looking at pro football players, a brace like that is completely outside their uniform.

    and EKnee, don't worry and keep posting, it's great stuff!
     
    #53
  4. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    He was a billionaire with unlimited resources, who knows what kind of brace out of what kind of materials could have been created. Any sort of surgery would have taken months of rehab- from microsurgery to knee replacement, etc.

    It was never fully explained how he was able to function again. Maybe he was always limited and tried to compensate. That may be supported by Alfred's speech to him before he walked away and previous comments on Bane while watching him on the news broadcast after the wall street disaster . Alfred thought he had no chance against Bane, his strength, quickness ,etc.
     
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  5. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Yes, but then Bane would have the "regular guy" ( who turned out to be Talia/Tate) detonate the bomb.

    Its just an entirely different movie than the DK. More people saw TDK than BB. I loved DKR. just as good as DK, just diferent.
     
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  6. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    A thought just occured to me. In BB, Ra's al ghul/Ducard attempted to use the chemical in the blue flower to destroy Gotham because Bruce refused. Ra's al ghul did not intend a suicide mission to accomplish this task.

    In the DKR, it seems that Bane and Talia were willing to sacrifice themselves to trigger the nuclear bomb to annihilate Gotham. In a sense, it was a suicide bombing.
     
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  7. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    Explanation =/= depth.

    I know they were 'sort of like goggles,' but their actual use was never explained. She just flipped them up and down at random.

    Repurpose the rope into a lasso or grappling hook. If prisoners could so easily make it to that first ledge, there's no reason they couldn't find a way to anchor some rope on the far side.

    If three trucks blow up, what's left to detonate?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
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  8. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    In a sense, Dark Knight Rises is sort of the "interior version" of Batman Begins. Gotham is New York City, but it's a gothic New York City projected from Bruce's perspective. And thus though Bane and Talia are villians, they're really different aspects of Batman's interior dialogue. His true enemy has always been himself, his fear and loathing.

    Dark Knight Rises is basically a love story. The twist isn't the reveal of the child, but the revelation that love (and not "will to power") saved her. Love is stronger than despair; love is stronger than fear. You have to love something (an idea, a city, a person, yourself) in order to have hope. It's a brilliantly ironic take on not just Batman, but the whole "loner male hero" archetype of comic books.
     
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  9. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    An analysis that makes the film even more interesting.

    So is Bane a projection of Batman's paranoia that originates from the murder of his parents?

    Or is it a more civilizational paranoia that he embodies?

    A triumph of the Christian idea of love over the imperial ideology of power?



     
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  10. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    In a sense, yes. In the first movie, Ra's Al Ghul warned Bruce that the training itself is nothing. Bruce ignores this advice and accrues a set of masks and toys to domesticate his demons.

    Bane seems so insurmountable, not because he has superman strength, but he reveals the training's machinations, and exposes Bruce's delusions for what they are. Bruce didn't learn his lesson from the Joker. Bane's voice is made to be like a German therapist or examiner. He is a savage inquiry, not a formal opponent. We fear for Bruce because we suspect Bruce is still that frightened boy underneath the muscle and toys.

    In his way, he tried to do the same for Gotham by creating the elaborate Harvey Dent myth with Gordon, ignoring that Gotham's demons (class divide, corrupt prison system, apathy for justice) still persisted. It's no small irony that a retired Batman still watched Gotham from his cave, yet reclusive Bruce forgot to pay the bills for an orphanage. He had become as dissonant as his city. That wasn't true with Batman Begins.

    Bane is half terrorist, half Situationist. He blew up stuff as a stunt, to create a spectacle that turned Gotham's class rage in on itself. "Defeating" Bane was revealed to be immaterial. Bruce is not really fighting that man, but his own conceits.

    Either that or a droll gender comment about antisocial male archetypes and the women who'd wish they grow up already. Selina Kyle is effective and important in the story, because her talking points are "get over yourself, Bruce" and "move on already, Bruce." She cares, but she did not want to be part of his narrative, anymore than Rachel did. Bruce doesn't "get it" either until Talia's reveal.
     
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  11. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

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    It was explained that the trucks had lead-lined trailers, which would hide the radiation. If you remember earlier in the film the satellites did pick up the radiation from the bomb when it was in the football stadium. Then, the bomb was put in the trucks so that the satellites couldn't pick up the radiation anymore.

    Hence, no one from the outside could tell where the bomb was. They didn't even know about the trucks until the special ops guys came in (but they were all killed before making it out). The use of multiple trucks as decoys prevented the locals from knowing where the bomb was, making it difficult to arrange an attack. In the end, even though they thought they knew where the bomb was, they had to resort to going from one truck to another.

    I'm not saying it's a great plot line, but the explanation was there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
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  12. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Regarding repurposing the lasso, That makes sense but supposedly this was a very old prison and inmates had for a very long time tried to unsuccessfully escape so one may assume many different things were tried but over the years but the only prisioner to ever escape was Talia without the use of a rope.
    ***As Bane explains Bruce's situation when he takes him to the prison, , he makes the point that the prison's greatest weapon is the false hope it continuously inspires, via the sun-lit opening at the top of the pit. The message is that hope - in the right context - can become the most deadly poison of all. Bane puts the tv in Bruce's line of sight to provide him with the motivation to attempt t oescape with the view that there will be no way he can climb up to the top of the pit to freedom and will be helpless as he watches the events in Gotham unfold culminating with the detonation of the nuclear device.




    Regarding blowing up the truck, Yes, you are right. If the army, navy, etc. blew up all the trucks simultaneously , the bomb would be destroyed ...but would that set off a nuclear blast? If they were to blow up one truck at at time and guess wrong, Talia would have set off the bomb.

    However, spaceman was correct in his recollection and analysis so this debate is moot.
    It is impossible to remember every single detail of a movie in the 1st sitting. I am sure, each of us focused on some different things and so you may remember some things I didn't and vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
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  13. Agent Orynge

    Agent Orynge Professional

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    I saw the movie. I understand this. There is still a very simple solution... probably several of them. Boiling our government's intelligence capabilities down to "we sent in three dudes, they got killed. Oh well, better luck next time" is beyond simplistic, it's stupid.
     
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  14. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

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    Like I said, it's not the best story line. I think they could have spent several more minutes showing the government trying and failing to gather intelligence. It wouldn't have been difficult to improve the writing there without really changing the basic idea.

    Still, the basic idea was that they didn't know about the trucks and they didn't have any idea where the bomb was. So, there was no apparent solution. Had the special ops team made it out alive, then that would have changed things.

    That said, given how easily officer Blake was able to go across the last remaining bridge and chat with the officers at the end of the film, it seems like just about anyone could have walked up to them long before that and given them the full scoop. No need for special ops. For me, that plot hole was more disappointing.
     
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  15. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    when bruce returns from the prison (even though that was discussed as a plot hole - how did he get back so quickly, or how did he get back at all? instead of selina saying "i thought they killed you," she could have led him into answering how he got back. either way) and talks to selina, she asks "got your powerful friend on the case?" was she just being sarcastic, since she already saw batman revealed as bruce when fighting bane in the sewers?

    and did Nolan answer the "five dead, two of them cops" debate in TDKR or in a TDKR interview?
     
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  16. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    #66
  17. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Also, talia said "his only crime, was that he loved me" to explain why bain was excommunicated. but then when she leaves, she says "goodbye, my friend." so what what do people think was the actual relationship between them? was she referring to a brotherly/sisterly love on his part?
     
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  18. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    and you know what i just thought of? in BB, Fox says the tumblers worked, but they never were able to make the bridges that the tumblers helped establish work. since there was quite a lack of bridges after bane blew all but one up, wouldn't it have been cool if gordon/blake/the police stole a tumbler back and tried to make a bridge? just another "full circle" thing, and if it was blake, that could've been seen as starting him into his new batman role (if that is the case with the character).
     
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  19. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Additional Plotholes

    Every movie, even the absolute best has plotholes. Movies are merely entertainment. Neverthless, here are some more that were not already mentioned in the thread:

    1. Even though bane may have known Bruce was Batman, how did he find out about Applied Sciences of Wayme Enterprises since it was off the books. Also, how did he know its specific location and that it was Batman's storage area of gadgets and weapons?

    If so, how is it that in all the months of marital law that followed, they never discovered the location of the "Bat" or the makeshift bat cave used by Bruce in TDK due to the destruction of Wayne Manor in BB?

    2. How did Bruce recover up to fighting speed in such a short time while in prision (5 months) after a broken back and being incapacitated to have the mental and physical strength necessary to climb out of the prision/hole and to fight Bane more effectively than the first time.

    3. How did Bruce get back to gotham from the prision on the other side of the world so fast let alone at all since all his colleagues were trapped in Gotham, he was broke and had no money. He also had no identification.

    Also, how di he find Selina when he returend to Gotham. Its a very big ciy.

    4. Why wouldn' t the SEC overturn Bane's fraudulent tradesincluding the use of Bruce's fingerprints.

    5. in the beginnng of the movie, since Bruce is a recluse and afer the events of BB, how would Wayne's security allow the hiring of Selina Kyle, particularly since she hasa huge rap sheet and allow her to ente the private residence of the manor to serve Bruce his dinner.

    6. if Selina can hack into encrypted stuff why does she need the clean slate program?

    7. how can Bruce trust Miranda wit his clean energy program, if he is concerned with it falling into thewrong hands without running a security check. If you recall, after they had sex in the mansion, Selina tells Bruce that her family wasn't always rich. shouldn't he have already known that if he had run the proper background check?

    8. Why would Bane travel all the way to the prison with Batman if he was trying to destroy gotham.

    9. Regarding the prison, don't guards normally try to stop prisioners from escaping? There seemed to be no one running it.

    10. How could basically the entire GCPD go into the sewers leaving the city above defenseless.

    11. inthe opening sequence. how could the CIA not check out the identities of the hooded bad guys before putting them on board their plane with the scientist who has very dangerous knowledge that can be exploited.

    Also, how could the CIA not detect the other plane flying towards them which attacks and pulls apart the CIA plane.
     
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  20. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    I see it more as a big brother-sister relationship.Maybe Bane would do and did everything for her. Maybe he did some stuff during his training or as a member of the league of shadows that was not within the teaching of Ra's al Ghul or defied him. It may have been Talia's bias toward him since she hated her father until he died that she explained that his only crime was that he loved me.

    He was substantially older than Talia. So I find it hard to believe that he had been in love with her when she was a little girl. Bane and Talia developed a bond in prison and Bane became her protector.

    BTW, in BB, Ducard/ Ra's al Ghul tells Bruce in the Mansion that he was his greatest student, etc. Clearly he saw Bruce as a more worthy successor than Bane or Talia even though she was his own flesh and blood.
     
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  21. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Plus something for the "batman really died" argument (though I don't believe that happened) - in order, batman is shown flying the bat (just a shot of his face), then it pans out to watching the bat fly over the water, then it shows the bomb with 5 seconds left. whether this is a time mash up or not, idk, because they didn't show how much time was left on the bomb right when batman took it away, but they did show 1:57 right as he strapped the bomb to the cable.

    Did anyone else think to themselves "if i was pulling a nuclear bomb, I wouldn't let it smash on the ground like that" haha. it fell out of the truck, and then it got dragged along the road for a bit. Please batman, be a little more gentle with that thing haha
     
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  22. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    good points about the love thing. and it should be assumed that talia and bane were trained before or after bruce, correct? there was no mention of either of them in BB as far as I know
     
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  23. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Bane/Talia probably had a sibling-like relationship. That is also a reflection of the Nolan Batman movies in general. Bruce and Rachel also had a sibling-like relationship. Bruce and Talia consummate, but it's a plot point. Bruce and Selina seem liked the first "real date" he's ever had.

    TKDR may win in a Technical category. In the expanded format, it should get nominated in Best Picture Category as the token Big Summer Movie selection. Very unlikely to win unless Fall has an incredibly weak slate of prestige pictures,.

    I always suspected Ra's Al Ghul was interested in Bruce's financial and military resources. Wayne Enterprises as a LoS front.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
    #73
  24. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    and good plot hole list. while being apparent, i don't think they took too much, if anything at all, from the movie itself. IT WAS EPIC!

    Im not 100% sure of the point of the stock market event. was that primarily, if not only, to bankrupt bruce wayne?
     
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  25. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    yes, not sure when they were trained. There was no mention in BB of them but that doesn't mean that they weren't already trained. I don't remeber if there was a reference in the DKR as to at what age Talia escaped from the prison and was trained.
     
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  26. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Bruce and Miranda who is Talia's alter-ego like Bruce is Batman's. The scen right after the consummation provides the first clues when added to other clues that Miranda is not who she seems. The shot of the tattoo scar on Miranda's back and her confession that she did not grow up rich.

    I loved this movie but it does not seem to have the same early buzz as the Return of the King.

    Its ironic that in BB, that Bruce's parents tried to stop the economic collapse and destruction of Gotham in the first LOS plot and for that it is implied that the LOS was really behind the death of Bruce's parents. Ducard/Ra's seeks out and trains Bruce to put him on the mission to destroy Gotham using the Wayne resources. However, instead he vows to protect Gotham. Then Ra's attempts to use the symbol of hope, constructed by Bruce's father, the Wayne train to deliver the blue flower toxin to the atmosphere and cause the riot and destruction of Gotham.

    Then in DKR, Bane and Talia also try to turn the Wayne/Batman resources as the instrument of Gotham's destruction. Weaponzing the green energy and capturing and using the spare tumblers.
     
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  27. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Agree, it was epic. I didn't hink for one second about the avengers movie after walking out of the theatre. Only other movie thought about after leaving the theatre this summer was Prometheus, but not even in the same class.

    I think the stock market event may have also been a way for Bane to rally the have nots and to make the rich in general feel vulnerable. It was an event to encourage the 99 rise up to take back gotham after the explosions cripple the city.
    However, it was meant primarily to bankrupt Wayne as indicated by the stealing of Bruce's fingerprints and specifically using it to execute bad trades.
    By bankrupting Wayne Enterprises, it sets in motion Bruce having to trust Miranda with the green energy project and her gaining access to security codes, etc as part of LOS plan to weaponize it and nuke Gotham.
    .
     
    #77
  28. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Movie was horrible. I nearly walked out about half way. Waste of my time. Way too many plot holes and it was too slow paced.
     
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  29. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Thats what makes a horserace No one in my theatre walked out and most stayed to watch the credits.
     
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  30. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I actually didn't walk out cause I thought my wife wanted to stay. Ironically, she didn't leave cause she thought I wanted to stay. :)
     
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  31. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    I thought the first 1/3 of the plot was a bit languid and diffuse. In retrospect, it was necessary to fold in the different storylines and many, many supporting characters. Dark Knight Rises is plotted more like a TV miniseries, than a 3-act movie.
     
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  32. Aggro

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    Actually - from the film when Gordon went into the sewer and was captured by Bane's men, he read the speech Gordon wrote about Harvey Dent and Batman and worked out who was the Batman. This relates to the comics where Bane deduces who is the Batman in a matter of months.
     
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  33. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    I understand the feeling although unlike you, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie since I grew up with Batman in the 1960s. I feel that any movie in the Nolan trilogy (BB, TDK, TDKR) is better than all other superhero movies ever made.
    BTW, I was dragged to the original Harry Potter movie by a group of friends not knowing anything about it. For me, that movie was pure torture. At the end of the movie, when we left the theatre and we discussed the movie, we all yelled at each other how much we hated the movie. We all wanted to walk out but we didn't realize that everyone else felt the same way. I learned a lesson that day to just walk out. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2012
    #83
  34. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Anyone seen it on imax? - apparently an hour was shot for imax so it benefits considerably from a proper viewing.
     
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  35. siowmotion

    siowmotion Rookie

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    Saw it once and going to see it again, but I felt the movie was rushed. Really hard to follow everything that is going on. Also had to take my cousin to the bathroom at the scene near the end but why did Batman commit suicide with the bomb when he had the auto polite? I thought it had to do the HD's quote from TDK "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villian"

    For me right now TDK>TDKR
     
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  36. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Did you see the very end of the movie (the scenes after he took the "Bat" over the ocean)? If not, and if you are going to see the movie again, I do not want to give anything away. If you saw the whole, entire movie, then I can easily answer your question but I do not want to spoil anything if you did not see the very end.

    Again ,TDK and TDKR are very different movies. TDKR relates much more to the first movie in the trilogy, BB. Did you see BB? If not, rent it before you see TDKR again.
     
    #86
  37. EKnee08

    EKnee08 Professional

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    Yes, that is a good theory but keep in mind that the characters and events in the trilogy do not exactly follow the comics.
    I don't think Bane deduced Batman's secret identity from the text of Gordon's unread speech. Gordon, himself did not know who the Batman was until Batman made a reference to the incident in BB (not specifically referring to the scene for those who have not seen either BB or TDKR yet).

    I don't think any of the characters realized BW was Batman merely because the Batman "went into hiding" and disappeared after Dent's death was blamed on him. Remember, BW becoming a recluse related to the death of his love and childhood friend, Rachel Dawes by the Joker and indirectly by the Batman by saving HD instead of her.

    It is clear that Talia and Bane had at one time been in the LOS (in the Trilogy) before the death of Ra's al Ghul although Bane had been excommunicated at that time. Ra's al Ghul and his army knew Bruce Wayne was the Batman (see the scene in BB where Ra's al Ghul and some of his army attend Bruce's birthday party. Ra's al Ghul makes his presence known to Bruce by having an elderly guest announce him, makes his intention to destroy Gotham to Bruce known when he greets him and then burns down Wayne Manor), It stands to reason that Talia, Ra's al Ghul's daughter and his successor as the leader of the LOS knew Bruce was the Batman as well as Bane since they had a well-drawn plan to destroy Gotham and take their revenge on Bruce-Batman for killing Ra's al Ghul (which included forcing him to helplessly watch the slow destruction of Gotham on tv from the "unescapable" prison.)
     
    #87
  38. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Good film, but not nearly as good as some of the fans are claiming.

    The whole bane mask thing was pointlessly corny imo. And he was so theatrical in how he spoke - totally unlike what a nasty villan would be like imo.
     
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  39. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    My friends are reporting that this installment was long and boring. The blockbusters this summer have been just that: a bust.
     
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  40. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

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    I loved it, my wife loved it, everyone I know who's seen it loved it.

    It's a movie about a billionaire who dresses in a bat suit and fights crime, especially when summoned by the "bat signal." That should be the first clue that the world of Gotham isn't exactly parallel to our own, similarities notwithstanding.

    If you aren't interested in suspending some disbelief and answering superhero-movie-type plot questions yourself, TDKR is definitely not for you. Personally, I'm glad this movie didn't ponderously try to explain itself at every turn. Left room for my imagination to have some fun.
     
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  41. galain

    galain Hall of Fame

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    I really enjoyed it too. I have to say, for me, it was a better film experience than TDK. I thought Bane was very well done.

    yes, there were plot holes, but hey, it's a superhero film. The only thing I wasn't too thrilled about was the very end. I would have bene happy had the film ended a little earlier, but all in all, well worth the money I paid.
     
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  42. SPRacket

    SPRacket New User

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    pretty awesome movie, sadly had to see it in regular theater, can't wait to go watch it again in IMAX
     
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  43. ChrisCrocker

    ChrisCrocker Rookie

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    I didn't like that nolan decided to replace bane's back story with Talia.

    In the comics bane look to Ra's as a father figure so it made sense that in this movie he was Ra's al ghul's son. Bane was born in prison due to his father's deeds and escaped prison, but they decided to have Talia fill that row which I thought killed the story a bit.

    Sure it made a twist to the story (for those that didn't know Talia was going to be in the movie), but I didn't like it. Bane holding batman and breaking his spine was cool though, it was a given they were going to put that in but still made me smile.
     
    #93
  44. edberg505

    edberg505 Legend

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    "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you!" -Bane

    Oh, you think darkness is your ally. You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man. By then, it was nothing to me but blinding! The shadows betray you because they belong to me." -Bane
     
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