The difference between NTRP ratings?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by MurrayMyInspiration, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. Should a high 5.0 be beating a low 4.5 0 and 0?
    Should high 5.5s and low 6.0s be a toss up as to who will win?
    What is a difference between various NTRP ratings? What is the difference between 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0?
    Is 7.0 a professional or is 7.0 a top 10 ATP player? Is 6.5 a top 400 player or what exactly defines the difference between a 6.0 6.5 and 7.0?
     
    #1
  2. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Take this advice seriously. NTRP 5.5 and above are about as useful as a handbrake on a canoe.
     
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  3. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Pretty much what this guy said... They're just flat out useless after a certain level

    Why the obsession with ratings btw?
     
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  4. Just wondering how far I am away from the guys I aspire to be as good as.
     
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  5. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    So what you're basically looking for is some reassurance. "Hmm, if I'm a 5.5 then I'm only a 0.5 NTRP away from being a 6.0 and 900 in the world!" Doesn't work like that.

    If you have to ask, well.....
     
    #5
  6. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    MMI you said you were a 5.0. Shouldn't you have enough playing/tournament experience to know where you stand in the tennis world? You also said you play on a college team.

    From the countless threads you've started about ratings, it seems to me you're not sure of anything when it comes to tennis. Like tennisballa said, if you have to ask, then maybe you're not as good as you say you are

    If you're so desperate to know how you stack up enter an open tournament or a futures qualifying or whatever and see how you do. It's that easy
     
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  7. TimeSpiral

    TimeSpiral Professional

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    The way I see it: the ratings seem close, but are separated in reality by exponentially rising orders of magnitude.

    As Balla pointed out, at some point self-rating becomes useless and you have to prove your skill level by winning tournaments/accruing ranking points.

    If you play well at the 5.0 level, join an Open-level tournament and see how far you get.
     
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  8. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Think of it this way, would you ask a professional PGA golfer what his handicap is? I sure as hell wouldn't.
     
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  9. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    There are so many levels to tennis, every time you think you have gotten better you meet someone who wipes you off the court. I think it is part of why I love it so much.
     
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  10. Why not? If he told you that in his first year of turning pro he still played on many occasions in his local course where he played all his youth and said he averaged -4 under for the year.

    Wouldnt that be very interesting to a rec player who has a handicap of 5 so they could get a grasp of what sort of level he is at.

    I am interested in things like this.
    What is the biggest jump in ratings? 3.5 to 4.0? Is there a greater gap between a 5.5 and 6.0 than a 4.5 and 5.0? Or is the gap meant to be the same but it is just that going from a 5.5 to 6.0 takes much longer time spent dedicated to the sport than going from 3.5 to 4.0 or 4.5 to 5.0.
     
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  11. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The rote answer you'll get in here is that a 0.5 difference in DNTRP (i.e. top of a level to bottom) should produce 0 & 0 scores because of an often misinterpreted, poorly written blurb the USTA put in a FAQ somewhere. That's actually wrong in that it was meant to mean that a match between two league players at the opposite ends of the same rating level (i.e. a top 3.5 vs a bottom 3.5 or a 3.49 DNTRP vs a 3.01 DNTRP) is not unlikely to end 0 & 0, so don't flip out or panic over a 0 & 0 score in a league match. It doesn't mean every match or the "average" match with a DNTRP difference of 0.5 should end 0 & 0.

    Furthermore, once you're delving into the "theoretical" NTRP levels for players above USTA league play, these relationships, to the extent they even exist at all, completely break down. Should a 6.5 beat a 6.0 0 & 0? Who knows? No one at that level is rated accurately (or even cares about NTRP ratings) since the ratings at the lower levels are driven by league play that doesn't exist at upper levels.
     
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  12. TimeSpiral

    TimeSpiral Professional

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    5.5 and 6.0 basically don't need ratings. Their performance / rankings will tell their story.

    I get what you're getting at, and I'm not sure you're going to get the answer you're looking for. If I were to guess, because I'm a lowly 4.0, I'd say it's infinitely easier for a 3.5 to become a 4.0 than a 5.5 to win a local, open-level tournament.
     
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  13. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    You're still focused way to much on NTRP ratings for high level players. These are meaningless. NTRP is an artificial construct used to segment USTA rec league players into broadly competitive leagues. Once you get above the level where rec league exist, the NTRP ratings break down. Honestly, the USTA shouldn't have even bothered to extend the NTRP ratings past 5.0. It should go to 5.0 for league play, then just "elite" or something to indicate you're above the level where these ratings matter. We can talk meaningfully about the jump between 3.5 and 4.0 or 4.0 and 4.5 because these calculations are populated with plenty of match data and are used by thousands of league players across the country, but how that compares to the jump between 5.5 and 6.0? No one really even knows what that is in real terms because no one is waiting for the year end ratings to come out to see if they can stay in their 5.5 league or whether they have to find a 6.0 team to play for.
     
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  14. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    In actual play a difference of exactly NTRP .5 points is closer than 6-0 6-0. I seem to remember some thread here figured it to be a difference of about 2.5 games per set on average so maybe 6-3,6-4. A difference of 1 full NTRP point might yield something like 6-1 6-1 on average.

    For super-high mens ratings, the USTA guidelines give ratings something like this:

    no. 1-75 ranked US mens college player 6.0
    ATP rank 400 to 900 6.5
    ATP rank 120 to 399 7.0
     
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  15. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    In short, NTRP ratings are meaningless after '5.5'. You're not playing rec level tennis when you play against these types of players.
     
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  16. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Show up at an Open tournament and start asking people their NTRP rating and you'll have 31 other guys praying they have you as their first round match.
     
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  17. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Hahahaha this is great. Very true
     
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  18. Exactly what I need, thanks! I am not even American or have an actual NTRP rating. I just am using the 5.0 5.5 6.0 as goals.
     
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  19. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Why? Why make "NTRP 6.0" a goal instead of "top 75 in NCAA D1 plus a couple ATP points" which is generally what 6.0 theoretically is but in much more meaningful terms?
     
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  20. How can you be NCAA D1 if you are too old for college?

    Is D1 a ranking or just a phrase for college players?
     
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  21. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    It is just for college. And Balla that was an amazing post.
     
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  22. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Division 1, 2, and 3 are roughly based on how much funding/interest a college receives for its athletics program. You can imagine that since Division 1 schools have more funding than D2 (D3 have no funding), they would be more competitive.
     
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  23. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Just college players. If you're too old for colelge, then skip the college part of the goals and go to "qualify for futures draws and get a couple points" or something like that. It stillmakes more sense than setting a goal in terms of an artificial system that will never apply to you.
     
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  24. Matt Miller

    Matt Miller Banned

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    NTRP examples

    I dont know why someone who thinks they know what they are talking about could not answer the man's question. A 4.5 player can either be a high intermediate player or a low advanced player. In ALTA terms this player would play anywhere from A-1 to A-3. A 4.5 player could also be good enough to play D3 tennis. So a low end 5.0 player could also play D3 tennis and 5.0 to 5.5 players generally play D3-D2 College Tennis. Or used to. I played a guy the other day that played D3 tennis in 4.5, and he was not the champion. I beat a guy the other day that is now 5.0, so it does fluctuate. I am 4.5-5.0

    As far as the big leagues are concerned most D1 players, some coaches, and "only people who want to fool themselves satellite players" are 6.0. There is a huge leap between 6.0 to 6.5/7.0. Imo 6.5 players can any time beat a 7.0 player, difference being 6.5 is usually under 250 in the world and 7.0 over.
     
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  25. Matt Miller

    Matt Miller Banned

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    also

    Also score does not always represent ability. It's what the goal is that counts. There are plenty of times when Pro's lose or win 0 n 0 n 0 n 0.

    As far as the low end is concerned 4.0-2.5, most of these players are adult hackers. 4.0 players can give a lot of 4.5-5.0 players a hard time b/c of their lack of conventional strokes and the ability to push or just get the ball back. Some 4.0 players can play 4.5 tennis but are not at the same ability. It's also imo a big leap from 4.0-4.5
     
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  26. Moveforwardalways

    Moveforwardalways Semi-Pro

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    NTRP is only relevant for adult players (post college age) and up to the 4.5 skill level. Outside of those parameters, it is meaningless.

    For example, what is an NTRP for a D2 college player? Answer: there isn't one. There is only a suggested self rating starting point for a former D2 college player who is now post college and playing league tennis. Until then, he is just a D2 college player. What is an NTRP rating for a high school player? Same story.

    Above the 4.5 skill level, it is essentially just "open" and "who cares".

    An appropriate person to have an NTRP rating would be like a 32 year old woman with 3 years experience playing USTA league tennis.
     
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