The Doping Thread

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by jamesblakefan#1, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

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    If so many of you are convinced that top players on both tours are doping, then why do you continue to watch them play? By doing so, are you not supporting their alleged doping?
     
    #51
  2. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Because I want to see the best Tennis

    I go to watch tennis being played at a level - I can only imagine. Apparently, to play at that level - it is my understanding you need to be on something.

    Take away the drugs - level will drop - might as well go watch the local A players play!
     
    #52
  3. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    If you ask me about the chances the top 4 are doping/have doped, I'd guess

    Rafa: 10%
    Nole: 5%
    Andy: 2%
    Fed: 1%

    Fairly small chance, but that's just me though.
     
    #53
  4. Vlad_C

    Vlad_C Semi-Pro

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    We've all heard that argument before.
    But...
    Let's say you're a tennis fan, and a recreational tennis player. You know what kind of physical effort it takes just to play a 3h match at the park against a solid opponent, and what kind of toll that can take on your body in terms of recovery time.
    Then you see a guy on tv, playing a 5-hour semifinal, and you think to yourself, "well, this guy is going to have to spend the next 7 days on the couch drinking protein shakes". But then 48 hours later he come out fresh as a daisy to win another grueling 6-hour marathon final against Nadal. So then you kind of have to ask yourself "dude! how is that even possible???"

    Special DNA? Don't buy it. The guy had the same DNA a couple of years before, when he used to be a quitter.
    Training? Sure, but that does not explain that kind of recovery in such a short time.

    So then, you still remain with the unanswered question: "how do they do it"?
    How do some players come out with this kind of super-human performances?
    I mean, clearly they must be doing something different than the others, because there is just too much of a performance gap.
    And as long as that remains unexplained, fans will remain suspicious.
     
    #54
  5. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Have you heard of adaptation and natural selection? These guys are the best in their sport. The best in the planet. You can't compare yourself to what these guys do.

    On top of that, playing tennis is pretty much all they do, so they are conditioned.

    The fact that Djoker used to not be able to finish and now he does has been attributed to gluten intolerance, and I'm sure there's a lot to that.

    Again, without proof, accusations are not a viable option. Anybody can accuse without proof. It takes no special skill to do that.
     
    #55
  6. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    You got it wrong. It's more like:

    Rafa: 3.753%
    Nole: 5.245%
    Andy: 5.134%
    Fed: 21.534%

    Of course, this is just an estimation with a minuscule degree of uncertainty. *


    _______________________________________________________
    *Results are offered with a degree of accuracy of +/-100%
     
    #56
  7. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    Do you honestly think WADA is in this for cleaning up any sport? Like any part of the Pharmaceutical business, its only about money. Maybe ask yourself how WADA was so sure about Lance, yet could never, through any of THEIR testing provide a tainted sample? How can you do a presser (with a straight face) about Lance when your own company is that incompetent with its own testing procedures? In this scenario, WADA cant even prove anyyone else was clean, or dirty or what the "playing field" really was. I know their track record seems to be one that if they were your doctor and trying to find the disease i would not be using them anymore.... All the major bust have come from people opening their big mouths because they are jealous or have some sort of motive, not from test
     
    #57
  8. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    You cant use this example as Nadal had this same feat against the greatest HC player of all time previous to that. So history would contradict your opinion that its not possible...
     
    #58
  9. Vlad_C

    Vlad_C Semi-Pro

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    ^ The same Nadal who just finished serving a 6m silent-ban (according to some)? :twisted::twisted::twisted:
     
    #59
  10. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    I thought it was USADA that took down Lance, not WADA. But either way, no they didn't actually manage to get a positive test until I think maybe 2010. But they were relying on snitches. So you have to wonder if they really wanted to catch anyone. Even Lance said himself during his Oprah interview that they knew when the tests would be and could plan around them.
     
    #60
  11. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    So what's the point of even having an antidoping agency? It ends up hurting the reputation of the game, as it puts any one successful enough under suspicion of juicing. Or at least anybody successful and muscular enough. This is crazy.
     
    #61
  12. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    The slower the court, the less skill involved. S&V was more skill orientated but baseline bashing has always been about footwork, tired legs and endurance. Especially today with these violent western grip forehands. Those verticle swings take alot more energy than the classic swing Fed uses.
     
    #62
  13. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    Nole "quitting like crazy" is a myth, as a poster here showed not long. His buddy, Tippy, yes, but you are not correct about Nole. And, btw, when did you get your Uber doctor's decree where you can decide from you couch which injuries are legit and which are "ridiculous?"
     
    #63
  14. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    The whole point is that when Djoker was pushed hard enough he was very likely to quit. The change is radical and undeniable. Now, I'm not claiming PED use. Just saying that Novak displays the most dramatic change I remember in a top athlete (not just tennis) regarding stamina and physical endurance. He's gone from whimp to pimp. :)
     
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  15. 70後

    70後 Semi-Pro

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    That Stan AO match did it for me. The most extraordinary shotmaking failed against a person who never got tired. If only the overall conditions were fast and unpredictable and polarised in variety, maybe never getting tired would be irrelevant. I wouldn't say the "d" word but I've lost trust. For me this is an anti shotmakers era. I have no more faith in the game.
     
    #65
  16. BlueB

    BlueB Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely right! I think these are the posts:

     
    #66
  17. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    The myth that keeps on giving.

    Djokovic had a well-documented history of having incredible stamina and playing one marathon match after another without quitting. But of course, no one remembers that because it doesn't fit well with the whole "Djokovic has no stamina" argument. Like at the 2007 U.S. Open: he played a 4-hour 41 minute match against Stepanek and a near 4-hour match against Monaco.....and then made it all the way to the finals.

    But whatever :)
     
    #67
  18. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    You are really stretching the truth. Djokovic was one of the best 5 set players on tour even in 2005-2010. He played numerous matches where he was down 0-2 or 1-2 sets and came out victorious. His record speaks for itself. When Djokovic did have health issues he went down easily rather than in 5 sets.
     
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  19. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Subjective bollocks presented as fact.
     
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  20. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, he was a retirement Queen which absolutely didn't change in his super duper 2011 as he retired twice that year.


    The guy had a 12-5 five set record and never retired in the 5th set of a match.

    He could always play back-to-back marathon matches, see 2007 USO and Wimbledon for example.

    He could also play 100 matches in a season before 2011 like he did in 2009, what a wimp.

    Yeah, if you ignore facts or twist them to suit your agenda.

    P.S. I think all top players are doping but I sure as heck don't think Novak suddenly started to do so in 2011 (after being in top 3 for 4 consecutive years) and that other top stars are clean.
     
    #70
  21. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thanks, saved me the effort.

    Those two posts from Vero should be mentioned every time this topic comes around, just to present a clearer picture of things.
     
    #71
  22. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    That's the thing, he didn't, most of his retirements were not in BO5 matches that went the distance (as Sid said).
     
    #72
  23. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Didn't he go 4 hours with Nadal on clay in 2009 Madrid?

    Amongst that, many other matches where he went the distance.

    As for the top players doping, I don't buy it. Everyone says that it would destroy tennis especially if it were Fed or Rafa who got revealed as dopers. Truth is, if these guys were doping, they would've been revealed BEFORE they were winning multiple majors.

    Take RG 2005 for example, Nadal was an 18/19 year old on the rise and hadn't won any majors yet. How would it have destroyed tennis to reveal that he was doping? They revealed that Puerta was doping didn't they?

    If an 18/19 year old Rafa can win RG without doping, then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that as he got older and stronger that he'd need to dope to continue to win it.

    The fact is the *******s cannot stand that guys like Rafa and Novak came along and started to consistently knock him out of majors. So they concoct this story to make themselves feel better that their hero didn't really lose fair and square.

    This year's AO was the perfect example to back up my point. I'd never seen much talk of Murray doping on here before, but as soon as he beats Fed, there's threads about Murray doping now. Seriously pathetic. Llendl was one of the fittest guys on tour back in the day, It's obvious that Murray's fitness has been bolstered by Ivan.
     
    #73
  24. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I think it's a perception thing with Novak. Not necessarily right, but not entirely wrong either. Pointing out how many times he retired in 2011 as opposed to any other year or his 5 set record is great. Those are fine facts. Obviously some people are exaggerating, but the reason for a lot of Novak's injuries and subsequent retirements leaves a lot to be desired. (i.e heat exhaustion, sore throat, breathing difficulties). Now the first 2 examples I gave were pretty lame retirements in all honesty, but breathing difficulties can be serious. I acknowledge that much, but I think in most people's minds (anybody can correct me since I'm making a bit of a generalization here) they'd rather see a guy retire with a physical injury that they can see with their own eyes.

    These days there is a drastic improvement that seems questionable because of the reasons he gave for some of his other retirements. We can't really fault people for being suspicious, even if the facts debunk the myth a "little bit."

    The truth is, that while I respect Novak for turning it around (can we still call it that?), he doesn't really stack up against Federer or Nadal well in this category, which I think is what creates this perception. I don't think Murray has near as many mid match retirements either, but I am not sure so I won't say anything definitive. It also has to be said, that Nadal has missed entire GS, so take that as you will. However, including 2005, I'm fairly certain Nadal has only retired mid match once. (Murray AO 2010). Federer has 2 walkovers, but has never retired mid match.

    Contrast this with Novak, who, including 2005 has retired 10 times mid match. Like I said, I respect Novak, but these are the facts that I believe have led to this perception. And you know what they say about perception.

    Just my two cents.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #74
  25. Skarter

    Skarter New User

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    Sorry, could you please make it clear what perception are you talking about?

    You keep mentioning it but never clearly stating it?

    That Djokovic is weak or that he is using PED's because he.....what exactly?
     
    #75
  26. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    The fact that Rafa went from a relatively skinny teenager to a muscled bull within months is what, to many people, makes him suspicious.

    Yes, we know male players mature into their bodies, but in allmy years of watching tennis, Id never seen a guy whose body changed so much in such a short amount of time.

    Becker was a skinny teenager when he won WB, buter even at 17 he had rather large thigh muscles. As he aged he filled out his frame over time and still his large quads remained constant. Pete was lanky when he won USO at 19, but even then he had a strong lower body, especially calves. As he aged, he filled out his frame, but his strong legs and thighs remained a constant.

    Rafa went from a noodle armed lanky teenager to just...muscles everywhere.
    And he continued to get bigger and bigger and in 2008 he was just HUGE. Looking at matches now from 07/08 you forget how stacked rafa used to be. He is smaller now than then( for whatever reason)

    But in all my years in tennis, Ive never seen a player whose physique changed so dramatically within a career.


    check out his DC match late 03 vs what he looks like in Miami in 04.
     
    #76
  27. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Murray has retired once in 513 ATP matches - when he injured his wrist and was out for 3 months.
     
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  28. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Why is it bollocks? Even on the amateur level, players find it easier to trade shots at the baseline than even daring to construct points by S&V.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #78
  29. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    Yes, you are correct about that being the USADA, but it ultimately was WADA that approved this action by the USADA and ruled it to have jurisdiction on the matter... A matter that originated in Europe. So i in a sense use WADA as Anit Doping on a whole because they seem to be running the show behind the scenes and making most of the accusations against all international sports, especially ones they dont have complete control over. Then they let those smaller "factions" do the dirty work...
     
    #79
  30. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    Well why is it only low level players that are busted? This all started as a health issue and safety for players. Now its administerd by legit doctors and the science behind it has proven very safe. The integrity of the sport is a load of bs, the term cheater is thrown around, but everyone is doing it so it is a level playing field. What is the iota to finding top level players? Lace is a different animal, all together, everyone knows it has been dirty since at least 1985, and remember that Lance made threats about his being clean. What other high profile was busted, let alone through testing. Big case bust stem from illegal drug "rings" or operations if you will that have a paper trail to big names. Is it really so that WADA is interested in cleaning the sport while the Spaniish govt sits on evidence that implicates more athletes.....
     
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  31. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry. What I mean is the perception is that he quits "all the time." Which is not true, but it's not totally false either especially when looking at his whole career. IMHO, this perception has been created partly because of some of the reasons for his retirements, and partly because he gets compared to Federer and Nadal over the course of their careers, which he should, being a top player and all.

    I'm not saying anything about Djokovic using PED's, just commenting on his retirement history.

    And thanks to Batz for confirming my guess.
     
    #81
  32. Skarter

    Skarter New User

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    Right.

    I agree with you completely in that case.

    Thanks for clearing it up.
     
    #82
  33. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Wimbledon 2003, he wore baggy clothes back then, but you can see his forearm is quite toned and is fairly big for a kid who just turned 17 years old:

    [​IMG]

    Miami 2004, he switched to singlet tops by then which by default makes the arms look bigger as they fully expose the biceps. His forearm does not look much bigger to me at all:

    [​IMG]

    TBH, there's no suspicious size difference at all. Also, if he was on roids, they would've pinned him for doping back then before he was a superstar.

    As for being huge in 2008 and then shrinking...

    Here's a pic of him in 2008:

    [​IMG]

    And here's one from 2013 when he "shrunk":

    [​IMG]

    It looks like you may need to get your eyes checked, or take off your biased Federer glasses. There was no massive size difference, he grew progressively and filled out his frame as I have just pointed out, and he hasn't got smaller from 2008 till now.
     
    #83
  34. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    I can see not many around here know much about steroids. Steroids are NOT for muscle growth in respect to endurance sports, they are customized for tennis players for endurance, some strength, durability and the ability to play for hours.

    The reason there is no knowledge of steroids is that if people understood that organic steroids make you impervious to aging and disease, everyone would want them.

    Why else do you think they take a selfish arrogant ***** like Lance Armstrong and hang him out to dry? Its like the mafia and police singling out a small dope dealer and putting him on the front page of the newspaper, to indicate the winning of the war on drugs.

    Lance Armstrong and Ben Johnson were patsies, cause if the truth ever got out about steroids, people would be taking their guns out and demanding they get their hands on them.
     
    #84
  35. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    There is minimal doping in tennis until proved

    /endthread
     
    #85
  36. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    You forgot to mention how PEDs help in recovery after a grueling match. And yes they can also be used as a "fountain of youth" but the side effects may not be worth it in the long run. Just ask Lance.
     
    #86
  37. *Sparkle*

    *Sparkle* Professional

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    These threads are so repetitive, so I am pleased with the idea of a single thread for doping discussions, but it may have been better if the opener was a bit more neutral.

    I'm going to go against the grain, and not accuse anyone of anything, nor insist that anyone is clean, or the only clean player on tour. Just report that Neil Harman of the Times tweeted the other day about how he was expecting blood/biological passports to be agreed/in place by the end of this year.

    I realise that information about likely changes to the testing regime aren't interesting or relevant to some who much favour the "he's got shifty eyes" approach to deciding on guilt, but I know there are a few tennis fans who favour a more scientific approach.
     
    #87
  38. pug

    pug Semi-Pro

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    All these doping accusations are just gossip and foder for people to rip the players they dont like. No proof, no story. All these "facts " remind me of Ralph Wiggum :

    Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and then the baby looked at me.
     
    #88
  39. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    some people just want some conspiracies to discuss over and over
     
    #89
  40. FormerNadalFan

    FormerNadalFan Rookie

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    I'm still super disappointed about Armstrong. It kind of makes me believe that everybody on top (or in the mix) is juicing. :(
     
    #90
  41. raging

    raging Professional

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    Yes... there are enough here interested in the facts about doping:
    if only because it is rampant in so many sports.
    Unfortunately a lot of tennis fans here too who would rather accuse different players of doping without having ANY evidence.
    That is much easier to do!

    1. ITF have already pledged to blood/biological passports by year's end, that is true.
    2. Random testing becoming more prevalent for all players would make it harder to dope.
    3. freezing & keeping blood samples for longer periods(suggested up to 8 years) would also aid retrospective testing.
    4. Networking & information gathering by all anti-doping associations in various countries would make it even harder still to dope.
    5. Even with all these measures(& even more) it is extremely difficult to
    stop all doping in sport & impossible to declare tennis 100% clean.

    It is much easier to forget all this & simply give up the fight against drugs in sport. But the easy way isn't always the best way...
     
    #91
  42. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Organic steroids make you impervious to disease and aging? I call BS on that, sir. Now, if you please park your wagon behind that there Saloon, I'll come right over and purchase some of your snake oil.

    Steroid use increase a man's chance of getting prostate cancer, for example. And that's one type of cancer about 90% men end up having throughout their lifetime, whether detected or undetected.
     
    #92
  43. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Holy **** pug, excellent post, I agree 100%.

    And that Ralph Wiggum quote killed me. I remember it perfectly and it's funny as hell. :)
     
    #93
  44. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Need more info. please

    Forget about the athletes - I'm interested. Can provide some details as to a good place to learn more about this! Basic google search I did came up with Muscle/body building type links - wasn't very helpful.

    If you can provide some links or sites that would be great.
     
    #94
  45. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Beware of cancer and other chronic diseases caused by steroid use. Inform yourself, by all means, but take all facts into consideration.
     
    #95
  46. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    A lot of people wanting to believe with their heart rather than their heads,which is fine, but tell me this - if you have players who associate with coaches who have doping history (Errani, Ferrer) and have sudden spikes in performance (Errani in particular), is that not enough smoke to at least consider doping?

    I'm not saying that every player is doping or that X player is only good because he/she doped (though there are cases of that as well). But I'm just saying that we as tennis fans shouldn't take the train of thought of 'there's no proof, so you can't accuse'.

    This isn't a courtroom, this is a discussion board. If we can't discuss things like this on here maturely as tennis fans, what should we talk about? Federer's hair? Novak's shirt ripping? Let's be serious here.

    For the most part this thread has gone well, I understand that some have their view that everyone is clean, which is fine. It's just harder for me to feel that way with the way seemingly all sports have at least some form of doping at or near the top levels. Maybe I've become too cynical in my old(er) age, but that's just the way I look at it now.
     
    #96
  47. thejackal

    thejackal Hall of Fame

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    For what it's worth:

    A close friend of mine was prescribed HGH (or something like it) by his doctor when he was around 12-13 years old. In the span of 6 months, he went from 4'10 to 5'9. Now he's 6'1", 170lb with 3% bodyfat (even if he now works an office job and goes to the gym once every week). we did play hockey together growing up, and while he didn't have truly world-class talent for it, it's not a stretch to assume that taking something at a younger age might be the difference between growing up to be 5'9" (and going undrafted) or being 6'1 and becoming a first-round draft pick. his doctor prescribe the hormones to him because of medical reasons, but obviously there would be fairly uncomplicated ways to get around the system.

    also, as far as I know, there would be no way for what he did to be detectable in conventional sports doping tests. even with biological passports.
     
    #97
  48. *Sparkle*

    *Sparkle* Professional

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    Who is saying that everyone is clean? Seriously, I keep reading claims about other posters who are apparently convinced the sport is 100% clean and that these people are idiots and gullible etc, but how many people actually claim this?

    Don't quote players at press conferences who don't want to be seen to be accusing their rivals of cheating.

    It's very easy to accuse those who think differently from yourself to be letting their heart rule their head, but that works both ways. Anyone admitting that they consider guilt by association to be sufficient to presume guilt is in no position to accuse others of not being objective just because they don't agree with them.

    As far as I can tell, virtually everyone knows that the current controls are insufficient, and so it is possible that some players are getting away with it.

    Enough evidence to raise the question of doping is not at all the same thing as accusing someone of doping. It's not as if there haven't been plenty of threads pointing out that certain players have worked with certain doctors. Unfortunately, some people struggle to understand that it is quite common for there to be smoke without fire.

    Threads like this seem to be divided into two sorts of posts. Those where people want to discuss the actual issues at hand, how players might get away with it right now, and how it could be made harder for players to get away with it, and then there are those who would rather channel the spirit of the witch-catchers and drum up spurious accusations against whoever suits them.

    Judging by this and most threads on doping, far too many people "debating" the subject would much rather be knitting around a pyre than bothering with sensible debate, which is why they get so repetitive and contain so few facts.

    Anway, thanks raging for clarifying what the ITF have said. I agree with your suggested measures, and that while it may be impossible to stop all doping, it's right that the ITF and anti-doping organisations take sensible precautions. My understanding was that the IOC were already freezing samples taken at last year's Olympics to be held for 8 years, so that is not without precedent.

    It's very easy to claim that the dopers are ahead of the testers, but it's a hell of a risk to take, especially if you may need to rely on your guys being eight years ahead.
     
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  49. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    If you want to speculate that's fine, as long as it's understood it's just speculation. For entertainment purposes I can see some utility, but it doesn't advance the state of the sport at all. The way you advance the state of the sport is by demanding the ATP to try better, instead of speculating the "Player X" must dope because of any reason.
     
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  50. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Best post in this thread. Specifically the bolded part.
     

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