The Doping Thread

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by jamesblakefan#1, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    Don't confuse him with facts, they make his head hurt...
     
  2. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    By any chance, are you a fan of Marion Jones and/or Lance Armstrong?
     
  3. steenkash

    steenkash Rookie

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    The usual suspects for doping are either Nadal or Djocovic, however why does your highness Rodger getaway with claims? He's a 31 year old man with a recurring back problem, yet manages to sustain high level of tennis against top athletes, and against the so called offenders. So I assume he must be doping too, right?
     
  4. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Because Fed worshippers know that gods don't need to dope. The *are* dope.
     
  5. Grigollif1

    Grigollif1 Semi-Pro

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    As I have gone deeper into this issue over the years at first, my main inclination was just that testing should be done the best way possible. I also used to agree with total prohibition, now I am more skeptical specially about the total prohibition part. Professional athletes are from from regular people or even amateurs when it comes to what is expected of their bodies.

    To believe that a professional athlete, a tennis player for example, can train 4-6 hours a day plus off court work, play 4 hours plus matches, recover to play day in and day for weeks in a 10 months season, not get seriously injured and do all that on bread and water is a bit of an illusion to ask. And Tennis is not even one of the most physical sports out there.

    If you look into some of the main PEDS used, they haven't change much over the decades: HGH, Steroids (basic Male hormone in synthetic form), insulin and EPO. These are all substances naturally produced and found in the body, these are all substances that are prescribed legitimately for people under certain conditions, with minimal side effects when done correctly. The argument is that Professional athletes are like regular people and should not be able to use them. Which is not correct in my view, not in what is expected of their bodies.

    To know that there are regular Joe's in the gym around the corner who used them just to look good, to expect that professional athletes who lived of their body to totally stay away from the science of substances that can greatly aid and help them to train better, recover faster and that if used correctly, under professional supervision do not show to have major side effects is a tall order to ask.

    I am not saying for allowing everything, certainly there are substances to stay away from, but to prohibit everything just doesn't work, look at recreational drugs which has been tried much harder. And the Ped's testing has not work as a serious deterant, is hard to imagine will ever be truly efficient, unless several hundreds of millions are invested and a truly strong independent party such as the government can get involved. That is what it took to bring Lance forward.

    So I believe a balance approach needs to be reach in an openly and honest way. The thing right now is that there is a political correct narrative for the lay man public to believe, that all Peds are bad and that sport's truly do their best to keep everyone clean, wink, wink, and that Tennis is a quite clean sport aside from a few exceptions. While most insiders or people who look deep into this now to be a charade. This needs to truly end, the issue needs to be brought to light, so the best solutions can be found. Not this 2 version way, one for the public and another for insiders.
     
  6. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    First of all, I didn't ask you, I asked him. Secondly, as I'm sure will come as no surprise to you, I don't care what you think. And thirdly, your analogy is silly: I neither said, nor implied, that if one was a fan of a person ultimately found to have juiced, that makes one a juicer. The point, which, I mistakenly though was obvious, was we have been down this head-in-the-sand despite considerable circumstantial evidence before, in the aforementioned cases, so the "no proof, no story" line is not only unimpressive, it's wrong: he may WISH there is no story, but wishing doesn't make it so.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  7. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    OK, finchy boy. What evidence is there against Nadal? Anything even remotely similar to what was there with Armstrong, please? Hint: Having muscles is not enough. Testosterone will do that to you along with heavy exercise and the right genes.

    Crickets? I thought so.
     
  8. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Not a Lance fan but?

    He was in a sport where most of the top riders/teams were doping! In that situation it was a level playing field. But he should not have come out and lied and accused others.
    I believe there was a report stating if you go back through the Tour De France - the person who was never caught doping finished in 29th place.
     
  9. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    U have no idea of what you are talking about. Seriously, so I really don't want to get into it with you. Organic steroids do NOT cause prostrate cancer, they in fact prevent it, and every other form of cancer.

    They are much, much more expensive than pharmaceutical steroids, and thus all the information you are referring to, refers to synthetics. Organics? Truly the edge, the fountain of youth. And I in fact am on the same blend as five Hollywood actors that keep looking better with age. Whilst the other actors who are unaware of its existence get older and fatter.

    If the truth came out about the high end organic stuff, every citizen would want one, and what government wants a bunch of youthful codgers running around collecting old age pension.

    The answer? None that I am aware of. So hang out a few token athletes out to dry like Lance, don't test the rest and keep it all a big secret.

    You want cancer? And the testosterone levels of an eighty year old at 30? Carry a smart phone around for more than a half hour a day. That is certain leukemia and cancer. Lets call them DUMBPHONES. Cause that is what they are, if you know what they deliver.
     
  10. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Pistorius had banned steroids in his house, although that's now the least of his worries.
     
  11. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    ""OK, finchy boy. What evidence is there against Nadal? Anything even remotely similar to what was there with Armstrong, please? Hint: Having muscles is not enough. Testosterone will do that to you along with heavy exercise and the right genes.

    Crickets? I thought so.""
    __________________
    Forget it, Jake. It's GOATtown.
    What a time for GOATs to come out of retirement! First Nadal and now Sentinel!


    As I remember the French media had said he was implicated when the entire Puerto scandal broke, that seems VERY Lance like to me. The Spanish Govt has blocked any effort to uncover who those people are/were. Why did Nadal not follow through with his law suit? Simple answer is the evidence locked away by the Spanish govt would have to be made public to clear his name. Thats why no follow through, thats why no pressure with a law suit, the French made no public apology for "defamation" on Nadal regarding PED use and Puerto involvement. The ball was in his court and he is still holding it.
     
  12. vernonbc

    vernonbc Hall of Fame

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    Really???? I haven't been reading the media mania on this topic. Is that info from a legitimate source or is it just somebody's speculation?
     
  13. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    You must be talking about synthetic testosterone. That stuff doesn't stay in your body that long. As for cellphones causing leukemia, what are your sources? The most prevalent theory for cellphones causing cancer is through heat causing DNA/other changes when the phone is in active use and pressed against your skin.
     
  14. pug

    pug Semi-Pro

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    No I am not. The difference between Jones / Armstrong and the tennis players named here is that it has been proven that Jones /Armstrong cheated. When it has been proven that any of these people cheated, then by all means bring on the hate. Until then it is baseless speculation no better than a witch hunt.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  15. vernonbc

    vernonbc Hall of Fame

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    Oh my lord. You've really ventured into the looney tunes zone now.

    Your memory is very selective. The French media is hardly an authoritative source. They speculated he was involved? There are still people who speculate that the earth is flat.

    "Lance like" is when multiple people come forward and claim they have solid first hand knowledge of Lance doing drugs. There has never ever been a hint of any teammate or any person claiming they have knowledge of Rafa doing drugs of any sort. The only remote implication is a Belgian guy who has a reputation for being a sore misfit questioning how Rafa could play two five set matches in a slam.

    The Spanish government has NOT blocked efforts to uncover who was involved. They have investigated and are currently prosecuting the doctor involved. Spain is bidding for the 2020 Olympics and have gone to extraordinary lengths to clean up any supposed drug problems in order to remove the suspicions about their drug program enforcement. WADA has praised them for their efforts and they have met all IOC requirements. Spanish authorities released a statement years ago that Rafa was NOT on any list they uncovered in the Puerto investigation.

    What Rafa lawsuit? Are you talking about taking action against the French press for publishing those ridiculous stories from Noah? Rafa never ever threatened a lawsuit. He tried to convince people to ignore the nonsense and not give the **** disturbers any publicity. The Spanish Olympic organization threatened a lawsuit because they felt the whole Spanish athletic community had been impugned but I must admit I don't know if they ever followed through with that threat or if they did where it stands now.

    There is NO evidence locked away implicating Rafa in any drug scandal. There is only ridiculous garbage like you are spewing which has absolutely no basis in fact. You disgust me with your ugly gossip and rumors.
     
  16. snowpuppy

    snowpuppy Semi-Pro

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    Lets take a who should be scrutinize base on fishiness as provided by one of the article links on the original post

    • Skip the Olympics (which has much stricter drug testing) in your prime for any dubious reason and you're on the list.
    Nadal

    • Enjoy your best season in years in your late 30s, four or five years after your last "best season," and you're on the list.
    Fed while not having a best season did win a major at his "grandfather" age

    • If you're a skinny dude who miraculously managed to add 20 pounds of muscle to your scarecrow frame, you're on the list.
    None I think think of at the moment

    • If you chopped down the recovery time of a debilitating injury to something that just didn't seem possible a year ago, you're on the list.
    None I think think of at the moment

    • If you were really good and really ripped at a really young age, and now your body is breaking down much sooner than it should be breaking down, you're on the list.
    Nadal?

    • If you're exhibiting a level of superhuman endurance that has little correlation to the endurance of any of your competitors, you're on the list.
    Novak

    Even though i'm a fed fan, i'll throw out one more
    - Competing highly in an dubious era (a la lance armstrong)
    Fed, Murray, Nadal, Novak

    While it does seem like half the posts are finger pointing at their favorite players competition, the more doubts we can cast on the sport means more pressure from the fan base. And hopefully with more pressure from fans, the sporting organization will do something about this.
     
  17. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    Evidence for cellphone usage destroying our bodies? There is literally mountains of independent research. But if you go to the first 100 pages of Google or Wikipedia, you will of course bump into the very smart agenda based bot software programs that assure you that there is little to no evidence.

    Think outside of the box/pyramid.
     
  18. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    I feel sorry for you. There is never a free lunch with regards to health. Nobody lives forever. Some diseases (cancer is a very good example) are simply the product of cummulative mutations at the DNA level, and will take place if given enough time. A hormone will not help you escape cancer forever.

    You might look younger for a while taking certain hormones, but eventually age will catch up with you. Your knowledge of human physiology is appalling. You need to understand what a telomere is and what does it mean that during cellular replication there is an intrinsic degradation that is unstoppable regardless of whatever hormones you are taking. There is a built in cellular clock that can't be stopped. Does that sink in with you?

    What's more important, even if it were possible to live forever, it would be a crime to do so. Until humans as a race develop economic means of interstellar travel and terraforming of alien planets, the Earth is all we have and we need to make room for new people. The easiest way to kill the human race (ironically) would be to discover the fountain of youth and make it public.

    What you need to do is realize that you are a human being created by God with a finite earthly life, and invest on that part of you that is truly immortal.
     
  19. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    The French media? You trust the French media? That's like trusting a French used car salesman. Not only it's a car salesman, it's a French one!

    The French are so jealous of Spanish athletic achievement that they have not problem speaking out of their arse to implicate Spanish sportsmen in any scandal they can think of. Where is the evidence, yellow belly man?
     
  20. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    This sums it up really well, thank you vernonbc. Well said.
     
  21. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    You need to think outside your tinfoil hat. Do you know what is a more dangerous source of radiation that you can't escape? I'll give you a hint: It's above you, it's round and yellow, and if you look at it you'll go blind.

    That's right, the sun and cosmic radiation is far worse than any cellphone. Now, I think some cellphones emmit a dose of radiation that is too high, and it doesn't hurt finding a cell phone that has a lower rate of emission.

    Most importantly, radiation decreases inversely with respect to the square of the distance to the source (I don't expect you to understand that), so not pressing your cellphone to your ear while talking might be a good idea just from a preemptive point of view.
     
  22. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    He won medals at the Olympics didn't he?

    Well so much stringent drug testing at the Olympics. Actually, I understand they get off the drugs 16 days prior to competition to make sure it clears the system.
     
  23. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Actually, the Spanis government is blocking!

    The doctor said his most of his clients are from outside the world of Cycling. I believe he said only 30% of clients were from the sport of Cycling. Then apparently the judge said we are only dealing with the cyclists. No other names were to be mentioned.

    This is why people are claiming - they are trying to cover up the other names. It might not be Nadal who maybe implicated - it could be the Spanish Football players - as you know they have been touted as the best team ever - winning 2 world cups and a European cup - strongest group of Footballers ever - I would say!
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  24. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Any sources or evidence for your claims

    Bjorn99,
    If plan to remain anonymous and refuse to give sources to back up your statements about organic steroids - how are we to evaluate the validity of your claims?
     
  25. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    He most certainly did say they were investigating legal action. It was also a time when the Spanish govt was in no way interested in being part of any Anti Doping Agency. I wont take the time to list spanish athletes that have been caught only to have their own country praise them. And I was not using the French Media as an authoritative source(I am sure it was no a fabrication though), but they are multi faceted with the Puerto news and implications on Spanish athletes in general and with the legal action that Nads most definately was threatening. Only recently has Spain been interested in complying with Anti Doping, and its a facade in an attempt to bid for the Olympics. I wonder why Nadal would say the Govt need to release all documents and evidence to clear his name but you say their is none? Are you saying Rafa is a liar?
     
  26. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    Robert Ludlum used to watch me train in Florida and he made me very aware of telomeres over 20 years ago, and my knowledge of human dna and physiology is 50 years ahead of wherever you are. Its appalling that you cannot intuitively feel that.

    Telomere lengthening is the plum du jour, that I sifted, evaluated and researched before you could hit a two handed backhand.

    I own and sell apparatus outside of North America that repairs the HUMAN dna spiral. I have 3500 doctors as customers and a large majority of them use nothing else in their practise but my equipment. North America is stumped and decades behind. And probably will remain so with a populace as thick as yourself.
     
  27. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    Get past the obvious web 2.0 cell phone company agenda based insert research reports and do your own due diligence, i am not here to take blinders off the general population. Bad education and a bought and paid for media has done a phenomenal job of making that effort boring and frustrating.
     
  28. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    And remember that guy Petr Korda, who got busted for steroids? Was there a skinnier athlete than that guy? Steroids are in most cases everything that is good, and thus is painted as BAD by the media. WHY? Because 25 is the new 85. Our population is fat, sterile and lazy, and its mostly EMF based, that deprives the body of your most important hormone, testosterone.

    Young boys are being born every day now without a penus to speak of. Baby girls are being born with pubic hair all over North America. Why? Because of a horrid lack of testosterone and an explosion of estrogen. Welcome to a neutered male population. Lady Gaga is the new John Wayne.
     
  29. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    "Lance like" is strictly hearsay from jealous cheaters in their own right. Its is not factual evidence! Their are way more people that have needled that Nads was not clean. Fed maybe the most vocal but def not the only one. Learn to read between the lines, when someone says they don't know where he gets his energy, he is not normal, its not a compliment.
     
  30. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    Nadals performance in the 09 Australian playing 9 hrs and 40 mins (approx) with one days rest puts him right up there with Novaks feat... Everything else AGREE.
     
  31. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    What is the pathway that causes EM radiation from cellphones to cause cancer? You must know that, right? As someone already said, power is inversely proportional to square of the distance. If you don't touch the cellphones to your body or use headsets, the dangers are greatly reduced.

    As for DMA repair equipment, that does sound interesting. Genetic doping is pretty close to being a reality if it hasn't already. What can your equipment do?
     
  32. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    And, the similarity with Jones and Armstrong is, that for quite a long time-in Armstrong's case, for the better part of FIFTEEN YEARS-it was speculated heavily, with many sources providing circumstantial evidence-that those two were guilty, so, although I don't hate anybody, the time for scrutiny is now, and let's see if we can bring results under the time it took for Jones to be nailed, let alone Armstrong. One man's "witch hunt" is another's justifiable skepticism.
     
  33. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Yes, they have.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...s-Operation-Puerto-scandal-goes-on-trial.html

     
  34. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    I don't think any of us know exactly how this went on. The doctor said that when exactly?. During his trial?. When chatting with his clients?. In an interview?. Maybe they're only going with the names against whom there was more evidence than just what the doctor had said.


    Uhm, from what I remember, there was one source-less article in the French media. Never said another word after Nadal threatened a law suit, back in 2006.
     
  35. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    So you think that is anonymous haters on a tennis forum speculate, that somehow makes it more likely that Nadal would be doping?.

    Lol.

    Oh BTW, there is no circumstantial evidence against Nadal.
     
  36. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    I would assume that since it was after Puerto that their was some sort of "source" that was leaking information, and it was not just Nadal that was mentioned, but many Spanish athletes, not by name though as I remember. Maybe it was completely fabricated, (though all lies usually have some truth at the core) but you nor I know exactly, and the Spanish govt has kept everyone in the dark, haven't they? The question is why not pursue the legal action especially since no retraction was made?
     
  37. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    Everyone knows that the French dislike the Spanish athletes, winning their cycling and tennis events, but the fact is that the Spanish athletes have only themselves and their govt to blame for being so late to the party with International Anti Doping Programs. Now, finally part of the Anti Doping, clearly and unequivocaly it is a transparent attempt too solely be legit contender for hosting.
     
  38. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    We could assume anything, but we don't actually know. They could have just made it up. They could have had a source who swore he was telling the truth, but who could well have been making it all up. Just look at the recent case of a supposed serious newspaper, El Pais, publishing that video saying it was Chavez. The fact is this French newspaper didn't produce any sort of proof nor kept on going about it. You can be sure that if they had anything, they would have published it.

    Why not pursue the legal action, well, why not sue random people on the internet who accuse him of doping?. There are just pros and cons of pursuing a legal action. It could have just brought more publicity to the issue. He maybe just didn't want to go through the trouble. Plus, what would that actually prove?. Haters would still be saying they just couldn't produce the evidence but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Look at OJ Simpson, etc. And Armstrong kept suing people I believe.

    As for the Spanish government hiding anything on this respect - and I'm very, very far of being fond of the Spanish government -, I have heard that a lot but where is the evidence of that?. I've read articles saying the Spanish "authorities" haven't released names, but "authorities" doesn't necessarily mean the government. It could refer to the judiciary for example.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  39. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    What I find mind-boggling is, that a lot of people (here as well) would go to extreme lengths and compromise moral standards, in order to protect wrongdoings of a country/government, that is completely foreign to them.

    To an extend, that even the words of the GD of WADA are discussed as some kind of personal vendetta or perceived as insignificant.

    What are they "protecting"?
     
  40. Bjorn99

    Bjorn99 Professional

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    Best way to evaluate the equipment is to measure certain things. Get a very expensive blood exam, that examines all kinds of markers and compare before and after. There is nothing on the planet that can clean you up like my equipment.

    And yeah, there is some validity to what you say about contact with EMF. But there is a lot more to it than that.
     
  41. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    First of all, "anonymous haters?" Biased much? Anybody who doesn't love your honey is a "hater," huh(what a tired, overused phrase btw)? No, it's not just them, there are people who write for well respected publications who speculate, too, but of course you wouldn't notice that if it kicked you in the nether regions....

    Anybody who can read an article like the following(and there are others just like it) and NOT be suspicious is clueless and/or doesn't want to see...like the Spanish government-and, btw, notice that the article was written 2 years ago, and the strange signs re: BP have NOT diminished, if anything, they've gotten worse.

    http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  42. bullfan

    bullfan Legend

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    I'd wouldn't be surprised, given the horsemeat issue in Europe at the moment.
     
  43. swordtennis

    swordtennis Hall of Fame

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    What are they protecting?
    Not rocket science.
    Huge gravy train and cash money.
    I am reading Nikki Sixx's The Heroin Diaries.
    The behavior that Team Motley Crue covered up and vouched for was maniacal,
    Never f*ck with the cash flow OG!
    Duh!

    Do not respond to any "fan" in an adult conversation and topic.
    Especially reality topics like this.
    The jingoism is like weird Stalinist slandering.
    The thing is is that most of the time the fans fav could car little of them only when they need cash money and have to market their brand.
    Yet the fan protect them near the point of hysteria like they are intimate. :?
     
  44. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    I fail to see how pursuing an anonymous internet post is the same as pursuing a Media entity. I also fail to see how anything but good could come from being exonerated by said entities claims being proven false. Again, without knowing all details because of them being hidden/locked away, it doesn't seem too far fetched that an inside source thought they had something but that something is now of limits...
    Sorry to confuse, that separation of govt and authorities is def foreign to me. I am aware of the distinction but I tend to generalize this point.
     
  45. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    Problem is most doctors won't order expensive tests. Heck doctors don't even understand the value of preventative screening done yearly. They act as if they are paying out of their own pocket.

    I will have look into this stuff more. Can you email me with some more info on your equipment?
     
  46. bullfan

    bullfan Legend

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    I think Murray was fit, I think Lendl's work has been in Murray's head, not his body. I think that Murray had to get past his own head moreseo than his body.
     
  47. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    You are wasting your time with this dim bulb. :) Fans like that have their heads too far up Nadal's ***! They could see syringes coming out of Nadal's body parts and still be in denial. :)
     
  48. Rocky89

    Rocky89 Professional

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    Do tell, what are these well respected publications? :confused:

    While that website has good statistics and some good points, that article you linked to is biased, the author accuses Nadal of faking all of his injuries based on zero evidence whatsoever.
     
  49. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

    Joined:
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    ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  50. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

    Joined:
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    Wow, right on time. See the post that preceded yours...
     

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