The Doping Thread

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by jamesblakefan#1, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. Rocky89

    Rocky89 Professional

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    816
    Location:
    Australia
    That doesn't answer my question.

    And no I'm not a 'dim bulb'....I think there's doping in tennis, but I think that article is bias and is mere speculation based on nothing.
     
  2. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,829
    All of the above is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. And I'm entitled to think that anybody who thinks the article is "...mere speculation based on nothing." is somebody I'm not going to waste my time with, or do research for. Like I said, see the post that preceded your penultimate post.
     
  3. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    3,841
    Location:
    Inside the service box - the business end
    The Vamos Brigade cracks me up.

    Every time.

    The distinction between Government and judiciary system in regard to the Fuentes case has to be the latest spark of their imagination.

    Just to let you know, how this country thinks about doping cheats:

    http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1A1-3d3c74b21678484b866a4bc8047358ee.html

    I hope that this clears the things up a bit.

    :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  4. High street sw19

    High street sw19 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    Off Church road
    Is Nadal taking another "break" after the clay season ;-)
     
  5. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    Well he's taking a little break before it. . . . ;)

    Spain has 14 or so players in the top 100, and undoubtedly countless others playing in the satellite and challenger tours. Dr Fuentes has said he has treated tennis players. So which Spanish players have been to see Dr Fuentes?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  6. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    Yep. :lol:

    NSK et al., knees of mallorca, The_Onanist, Rockhead89, Malarky21, Ccrriissttii, Veronica. Typing through the night again and again.

    **** "logic" at its finest. :lol:
     
  7. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    9,794
    Location:
    Minneapolis, North of the Wall
  8. jrs

    jrs Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,222
    Source was the Telegraph articel

    I got my information from UK Telegraph article - listed above by Tennis_hands.
    In the article - it mentions doctor admitted this outside the court. I have seen much details come out about the trial - since it started.
     
  9. ViscaB

    ViscaB Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,203
    Location:
    Singapore
    Fuentes had a very international clientele. Just look at all the top cyclists from all over Europa that bought their candy from him.

    Their mistake was dealing with a high profile doctor. All the other sportsmen that got their EPO from the local pharmacy got away with it.
     
  10. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    Fair points. It is, however, in the best interest of all sports for names to be named and laundry to be aired.

    It may very well be the case that the calendar in tennis can pressure some to use PEDs in order for recovery. It's truly ridiculous that the ITF and ATP cannot sort out a better schedule that gives players better pacing. Canada and Cincy in back to back weeks is patently ridiculous.

    At some point our sport will need to have a frank and mature discussion about its calendar, but perhaps that won't occur until more doctors and athletes come clean. So realistically, Olympics-calibre testing may be a necessary step down that road.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  11. flyinghippos101

    flyinghippos101 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    5,312
    I suspect almost all the top 100 using banned substance. I am almost 100% certain that the top four is using banned substances, even Fed despite the "relaxed play" rationale. I think Novak is the most egregious suspect. I honestly never bought that gluten diet excuse, sounds bogus to me. At the same time, just because guys like Federer and Murray say there needs to be more testing while guys like Novak or Nadal oppose more intrusive testing means nothing. These guys have the funds to find new substances that are one step ahead of testing measures and what better way to deter suspicion that argue for more testing? At the same time, the ATP's credibility went down the drain when Andre wrote his biography. Who knows, they might've already found out and are protecting the players to keep the revenue streams flowing

    It's disappointing really; was thinking about this during the Australian Open final and it sucked the excitement out of the game.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  12. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,265
    Location:
    Chile
    It's ridiculous that the ATP seems completely unwilling to make a more reasonable schedule And they will just talk about wanting a clean sport. I mean, two mandatory tournaments back to back?. Almost no off-season?. Hard courts all around?.

    I don't think anyone should let this speculation suck the fun out of watching tennis for them though. It's not worth it.
     
  13. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,576
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    I hear what you're saying, but in the "off" season that exists now, players schedule exo's where they rake in the dough.
     
  14. flyinghippos101

    flyinghippos101 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    5,312
    I think you have a point. The ATP is absolutely part of the problem, not the solution. The year-round scheduling is tough and players may feeling hard pressed to turn to banned substances to keep up, but at the same time court surfaces are not to blame.

    Hard courts might be 'worse' on the body, but at the same time are faster, matches are not as long and rallies are quicker. Whereas, clay courts are generally known to be physically demanding due to the preponderance of longer matches and rallies all round which add up. Arguably, the respective physical demands for each surface are balanced by the unequal tournament distribution.
     
  15. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    Fed appears to have the worst stamina of the top four, not to mention the most average looking physique. That said, how many of the top four are receiving TUEs?

    Rafa is apparently getting regular PRP injections in response to his injury claims. There's also the small matter of that monster serve which appeared out of nowhere during USO '10 and vanished almost immediately thereafter. Or the almost superhuman stamina during many of his slam wins. Or the contradictory and sometimes odd explanations given about some of his ailments and recovery periods.

    It's all circumstantial, so the presumption of innocence must prevail. However, there seems to be enough there for some people to keep wondering. Some of those people are haters, but others certainly aren't.
     
  16. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    9,794
    Location:
    Minneapolis, North of the Wall

    I agree, thats probably the reason, expense aside, why there were more HC than clay tournaments. The problem now is with HC being so slow and causing more injury and more physicality in the game which in turn lends itself into top players needing better drugs to compete.
     
  17. jrs

    jrs Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,222
    I think it's time to admit to everyone - professional sports involves PEDs, if you want to play at the pro levels - then be prepared to use them. Legalize them and allow them to be administered and monitored by trained professionals.

    Hopefully this will reduce the athletes getting seriously hurt as occured in Cycling and Track.
     
  18. ivan_the_terrible

    ivan_the_terrible Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,673
    I read through most of these posts and it appears that the ATP is to be blamed along with equipment manufacturers for the usage of PEDS in tennis.

    - ATP = slow courts + too many tourneys --> players have to be really superhuman to last a season

    - Equipment = high-tech strings and racquet technology --> emphasizes brute force over technique

    Since humans are pretty much ethically fragile, they syringe themselves to glory.

    Time for Jesus to show up a second time, we're such an abject failure in morality.
     
  19. jrs

    jrs Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,222
    Don't know - last time he showed up they nailed him to the cross! I guess if the same thing happens again we can blame it on roid rage!
     
  20. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,667
    Nice post. I agree. That magical transformation in 2011 was preceded by a run of 6 straight QF's, the best of his career to that point, a Wimbledon SF and a US Open Final to end 2010 and leading Serbia to a Davis Cup title.

    You can be suspicious if you want, but the magical change I do not see.
     
  21. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,667
    For the record, I don't begrudge anyone for being suspicious. We, as sports fans, have been burned time after time on the PED issue.

    I agree with most that Federer seems the least likely based on visual evidence, style, the fact that he does wear down at times, etc. would suggest to me that's legit. His style has never been about grinding an opponent down.

    The biggest red flag I've seen is the associations with the doctor from Ferrer and Errani.

    One name I didn't see mentioned was Tommy Haas. Coming back from injury in his mid-30's and rising to #18 in the rankings. Or, what about Agassi playing some of the best tennis of his career in his early to mid 30's?

    When old guys find the fountain of youth, it can make you wonder. But, until the story breaks, I'll watch without spending much time thinking about it. I don't care that much to be honest. I just enjoy the sport and enjoy watching it.
     
  22. ivan_the_terrible

    ivan_the_terrible Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2010
    Messages:
    1,673
    Agree with you about players having their best run in the mid-30's - definitely some red flags there.

    You comment about 'enjoy watching' - are you prepared to watch 3 or 4hour matches on a regular basis? I ask this because that's where the game is currently headed.
     
  23. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,756
  24. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    4,667
    Fortunately, satellite and TV technology have advanced in correlation to our changing sports. Thank God for DVR. :)

    I have a 3-month and 3-year old daughter right now. Snoopy played Wimbledon the other day.

    I can see where someone who wanted to watch everything live might want shorter matches, but I really do DVR pretty much every match I'm interested in and watch many of them a little later. That way I can skim through and shorten my time spent on it if I choose to.

    But, I enjoy the long matches - like Djokovic/Wawrinka - and I enjoy today's tennis better than the '90's serve-and-volley style. Don't get me wrong, I liked tennis then and appreciate both styles, but I prefer a little rallying vs. 3 shots (serve, return, volley) on nearly every point.

    It is funny though. A tight five-set classic in the '90's would last about as long as 2-3 sets in today's game.
     
  25. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
    Messages:
    15,780
    Location:
    VA Beach
    The silent ban for Rafa is a subject that Wertheim brought up in an article on SI.com. Also has been written about by Howard Bryant on ESPN.com.

    It's not just us keyboard warriors who are wondering, the circumstances surrounding Nadal are always mysterious, anytime you miss 6+ months for a seemingly non-serious (i.e. non ACL tear) knee injury, there's going to be suspicions.
     
  26. CMM

    CMM Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    6,713
    Actually, Wertheim was answering a question from a keyboard warrior. :) And he probably wouldn't have done that if Nadal's pr manager wouldn't have made a chat with readers of an Italian website where he talked about doping and other stuff.
     
  27. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Messages:
    2,156
    I disagree. Both of them succeed with their techniques, not with their stamina, speed or physicality.
     
  28. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
    Messages:
    15,780
    Location:
    VA Beach
    Again, people are ignoring the fact that one of the biggest things with drugs is the ability to recover faster and heal quicker. 'Technique' has nothing to do with that.
     
  29. ViscaB

    ViscaB Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,203
    Location:
    Singapore
  30. stringertom

    stringertom G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2010
    Messages:
    13,144
    Location:
    In a sureshsian vortex
    "cheating Agassi"...LOL! Crystal meth is not a PED but, rather, a PSD...performance stealing drug. Crackheads and methheads usually gain their few minutes of "fame" on perp walks or "Cops" episodes, not at slam venues or the Olympics. That is Sergi's sour grapes to slam Agassi!

    I do admit some confusion in my mind about cortisone's legitimacy. After all, it is a steroid.
     
  31. ViscaB

    ViscaB Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,203
    Location:
    Singapore
    Perhaps. But he used a banned substance and should have been suspended instead of having been protected by the ATP.

    I never understood that like for example Maradona, Agassi did not use a rich man's drug like cocaine.
     
  32. Minion

    Minion Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2012
    Messages:
    280
    Bullcrap, bats dos and bollocks! I am a very firm believer in "guilty until proven innocent", but this whole Lance Armstrong thing has sparked a witch hunt. There is no evidence to suggest that the top guys like Djoko, Fed, Ferrer etc. are doping or using PED's.

    Until there is concrete evidence, it's just speculation without any merit.

    I wonder if its maybe possible to achieve what they have and sustain it through proper nutrition, and their training regimes.....*sarcasm*

    ...and if it happens that they are doping...well then i'll be very upset.
     
  33. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,265
    Location:
    Chile
    If it isn't a PED, I doubt it should even be banned.
     
  34. Jeebs

    Jeebs Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    London
    Corticosteroids are ok. Anabolic steroids aren't.
     
  35. citybert

    citybert Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    907
    Here the deal if they did "real" testing and lets say they tested the R16 in a GS and more than half were positive which is possible what would you do just cancel the tournament?? How are we sure this is a scenario that hasnt happened yet.
     
  36. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,780


    How are you sure it has ?
     
  37. citybert

    citybert Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    907
    Of course we all have no idea but we would never know
     
  38. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,553
    I got a semi it may have happened in. Puerta/Ferrer Federer/Nadal ;)
     
  39. Hollandtennis

    Hollandtennis New User

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Holland, MI
    If they're on anything it's probably Nandrolone.
     
  40. smash hit

    smash hit Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    587
    Agassi himself said,
    "I snort some.Then comes a tidal wave of euphoria that sweeps away every negative thought in my head. I've never felt so alive, so hopeful - and I've never felt such energy."
    This statement certainly doesn't lead me to believe that it stole anything from him. Given that he hadn't forgotten how to play tennis, it could have provided just the boost that he needed.
     
  41. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,553
    Agree, regardless why it is a banned substance, it IS AN ILLEGAL DRUG. Most people cant wrap their head around the fact that in very casual use a drug like that is not necessarily a debilitating drug. Just because its a hard drug does not mean someone is a junky... That bolded part sums it up I think.
     
  42. W.P. Mayhew

    W.P. Mayhew Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2012
    Messages:
    620
    Troicki suspended for 18 months for failing to provide a blood sample.

    Source.
     
  43. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    Nice to see this is being taken very seriously.
     
  44. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    On another note, it's worth reminding people not to draw conclusions of guilt based purely on association, as well as the fact that Troicki hasn't actually tested positive for anything, but . . .

    [​IMG]

    . . . Troicki was one of the Serbian players given diplomatic passports following their 2010 Davis Cup win.

    Even if Troicki is completely morally and factually innocent here, I just don't think that giving a professional athlete a diplomatic passport is a good idea. Wait til they retire from competition.

    A diplomatic passport, among other things, more or less exempts their belongings from searches by customs when entering any country. In the wrong hands, it could certainly help an athlete to cheat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  45. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    4,110
    Location:
    The 6
    That's so 10 years ago. I accept it's still possible, but it could very well be that cheating athletes have moved on to something newer.

    EPO, however, would certainly be useful to a cheating tennis player. WADA has even said as much. BO5 matches and the slowing of surfaces can make tennis a true endurance sport.
     
  46. vandre

    vandre Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,762
    Location:
    no man's land
    you want to have a semi mature discussion HERE??? have you thought about what you're asking? :twisted:

    ok though, we know that odesnik was popped with hgh and that troicki has been suspended for 18 months for failing to submit a blood sample to the doping control officer. are professional tennis players less likely to use banned substances than other professional athletes? i'd say no. in fact, i'd say that there are some factors (the "winning pays more" mentality and fact that there's a log-jam at the top/ especially in the atp) which I think would make tennis players more likely to dope/ use banned substances. how this has played out in the big baseball scandals is that there's been a big domino to fall or someone kicks over the rock (like what happened with balco and bonds). so far in tennis, we have yet to see the big names get in trouble. baseball on the other hand, a-rod's name is being floated around in connection to banned substances. now a-rod is no where near the player he used to be but might be see someone during the end of their career get linked to banned substances in a similar manner.
     
  47. Chico

    Chico Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    9,197
    Sorry but I disagree here. Tennis is a game of skills. Doping does not help you there. It is not Cycling or Track and Field where the only important thing is power or endurance, the things that doping helps you with. So Tennis is less likely to have dopers than other "no skill required" sports.
     
  48. cjs

    cjs Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    722
    "Is it wrong to convict guys without proof?". Are you serious???

    There is nothing "mature" about this post. No proof, no evidence - just conspiracy theories. Despite random drug testing you seriously believe half of the top 20 are taking PEDs? So how many of the top 100? 50% also?

    People who post this crap or believe it have no idea about PEDs and have never played high level tennis.
     
  49. cjs

    cjs Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    722
    Of course they are. Because tennis players look like body builders...
     
  50. cjs

    cjs Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    722
    I bet you believe the moon landing was faked in a TV studio too.
     

Share This Page