The Doping Thread

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by jamesblakefan#1, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. paulorenzo

    paulorenzo Hall of Fame

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    So the NFL is starting a test regarding doping. A pool of 100 former NFL players will be included in the study. 75 will be given HGH, 25 will be given a placebo. Supposedly the result of the study will help them determine whether to legalize the use of HGH in the NFL.

    It's good to see them being progressive, albeit redundant since we all know how much HGH helps in recovery.

    It's crazy how much more open other sports organizations are about doping.
     
  2. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Fascinating excerpt:

     
  3. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    Hopefully you're joking or being sarcastic. If not, well, you can be free sitting your *** at home, you're acting like playing on the tour is a God given right, here's a news flash: it's not. It's a pretty exclusive, potentially very lucrative club of sorts, and if you want to BE a member of that club, then you're obliged to follow certain rules, if you don't wanna do that, don't let the door hit you in the ***...
     
  4. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

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    The ITF, the sport’s ruling body, published a report today that shows how it kept the case of the player then ranked No. 11 in the world private during the grass-court Grand Slam under a policy that aims to protect the reputation of players in case they turn out to be innocent. The ATP, the men’s tour organizer, has concealed “many” doping violations in the past, former Spanish tennis federation president Pedro Munoz said in an interview. The ATP says it has always acted within the rules.
    Cilic was handed a nine-month ban by the ITF for testing positive for the stimulant nikethamide, which a panel found he took inadvertently in tablets bought by his mother. The “hushing up” approach risks damaging the credibility and sponsorships of tennis just as it increases efforts to boost drug testing, according to Simon Chadwick, a professor of sports business strategy at the U.K.’s Coventry University.
    “It looks like damage limitation on the part of the ITF, that they are trying to protect television contracts and sponsorships,” Chadwick said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...en-hurting-tennis-as-cilic-feigns-injury.html
     
  5. bullfan

    bullfan Legend

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    I'm not sure what's been hushed up regarding Cilic.
     
  6. octobrina10

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    From an article: ---After Armstrong admitted he had doped for years, 17-time Grand Slam singles champion Roger Federer used that precise word -- "naïve" -- in suggesting that tennis is tainted by cheaters just like every other sport. ---

    Yeah, he, for example, has never failed a drug test, but there have been repeated, random whispers that his major titles were built on a foundation of better chemistry. I keep wondering what has made it possible that the person who couldn't serve in the (Swiss) army due to his long-standing back problem, has won 17 GS titles!
    All the ways seem to lead to Switzerland. Quotes:
    "American cycling champion Lance Armstrong paid more than a million dollars to a Swiss company controlled by an Italian doctor [Michele Ferrari] who helped cyclists benefit from illegal doping, a new report says./---/Ferrari provided advice on how to evade detection by anti-doping testers."
    Wikipedia: "Dr. Ferrari recommended I use Emagel the morning before controls, and another product to decrease my hematocrit."
    http://www.thelocal.ch/page/view/armstrong-paid-swiss-company-for-dope-report
     
  7. Smasher08

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    My question is this: how would the former Spanish tennis federation president have this knowledge?
     
  8. easywin

    easywin Rookie

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    I do believe that doping is a big thing in sports and it will always be.

    Just the fact that there is way more money involved in the cycle of creating new doping substances than in testing should show that doping without getting caught is totally possible.

    I think i read that doping substances used today will propably still not be identified by the newest testing methods in 4-5 years.

    Its the wrong way to insult the athlet for this. In the USSR athlets didnt know what kind of drug they were getting, they maybe also didnt wanted to know, they just had to.
    In the USSR it was mostly an ideologic thing. Winning at the Olympics, showing the supremacy of Communism blablabla.
    Today there is even more to it. Just think about the money that can be made in a country which is successfull in a lot of sports.

    To a certain degree we have to be aware that its kind of our own fault that drug use in sports seems apparent.

    Does anyone have numbers for the total amount of viewers of the 100m dash finals ( if its diamond league or the olympics ) on television before and during Usain Bolts reign.
    I think it would be quite clear that most people are not that much interested in a sport, but in the entertainment that comes from looking at a dominator setting records and making history.

    I was for sure way more intrigued and tense for the olympics knowing that Bolt may settle a new WR.
    Its would be no wonder that doping is not just a thing an athlete thinks about, but also the whole sports business aiming to make more money.
     
  9. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Ouch.

    10dopers
     
  10. djokovicgonzalez2010

    djokovicgonzalez2010 G.O.A.T.

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    Why Schiavone? One of the most underpowered players (in addition to me just liking her)
     
  11. shakes1975

    shakes1975 Semi-Pro

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    Korda had even less a physical playing style than Fed, and that didn't stop him from doping.

    Fed never retired from a match, even played full schedule the year he had Mono, never had fatigue issues in all those yrs when he was getting to the F's (and winning) nearly every tournament that he played in.

    I think he is as good a candidate for doping as Nadal or Djok.
     
  12. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    Dope thread here
     
  13. jm1980

    jm1980 Legend

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    Probably because she looks so masculine.

    But Stosur and Serena are jacked like men. I seriously doubt they're not using anything.
     
  14. tennisdad65

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    Stosur maybe.. Serena was born that way :)
     
  15. tennisdad65

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    On the flip side, you could lose touch, volleys, control, accuracy, strategy, and karma would bite you in the butt.. I would imagine that PEDs would hurt more than help JMac's finesse game, if he were to use it during his time. With the modern game, I think it is still a close call on whether it will help.

    If PEDs helped their tennis game, some top players would be doing it by now and would have been caught.
     
  16. mellowyellow

    mellowyellow Hall of Fame

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    Ahahaha, it's like you didn't read any of the 11 pages or links, or even watch tennis let alone play.... nice contribution. Hopefully you don't represent the general viewers opinion/understanding of PED's.
     
  17. Gonzalito17

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    Marcelo Rios in his book The Man We Barely Knew:

    "I know that if Nandrolone were found on Agassi, they would not disclose it. He is a very prominent, very popular player and if he were to fall, the world of tennis would fall with him. The ATP would not say it."

    Jonas Bjorkman quote in Sports Illustrated in '98: "I have heard of cases of the ITF covering up positive tests." (Bjorkman was not sued by the ITF for this quote)
     
  18. tipsa...don'tlikehim!

    tipsa...don'tlikehim! G.O.A.T.

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    Funny how they banned 2 not really popular players last year: Cilic and Troicki, but nothing will never happen to the guys in the top 8.

    What Rios says seems obvious actually.
     
  19. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    Fed had a natural arc to his career. So sudden improvements in performance or sudden & dramatic down swing. I believe Fed is clean plus he won't even get back surgery, I think he's rightly a cautious guy.

    Some other guys suddenly became iron men after years of not being very fit or hardy.
     
  20. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    this right here. Also, this new trend of players breaking thru at ages where normally they'd be in the twilight of their career.

    It used to be stars would emerge as teenagers, peak in their early 20's, start to decline around 26/27 and retire by 30.

    Now you have Ferrer playing his best tennis at 30, Schiavone goes from a journeywoman to a slam champ after the age of 25. Errani emerging out of nowhere( and btw..Errani was tied to the Tennis Val academy whose doctor got busted for distributing peds) Li Na wins her first slam at 29.

    Sure sure, slower courts, better equipment yadda yadda. But as the game gets more 'physical' you are pretty much begging the players to dope.

    also agree about Fed. His career follows the normal pattern, emerges as a teen with alot of talent. Becomes a slam champion and dominant number 1 in his early 20's. At the age of 28, aided by mono, begins his decline. And now is barely hanging on to the top 10 after a near wasted 2013 lost to injury. But hell, fed is so talented that, even with diminished physicality he is still a great player.

    People forget when Pete retired, he was still going deep into slams. But he retired due to burnout and injury, not diminished skill.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  21. tipsa...don'tlikehim!

    tipsa...don'tlikehim! G.O.A.T.

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    Na Li won a grand slam before, i think it was 3 or 4 years ago.
    As for Ferrer, i don't know, no one can tell anyway, but "coward" Christophe Rochus said last year he saw a list of people doping with names... but didn't want to reveal names...

    then when asked about Ferrer said something like "believe me he is a really hard worker, not many players work as hard as him" bla bla

    basically the guy says his saw a list with many names, but doesn't want to tell more, in that case sorry but just shut up man.
     
  22. Gustavo Kuerten

    Gustavo Kuerten Rookie

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    There's also a link between using EPO and getting mono, which explains why he, Söderling, Isner, Roddick and many cyclists like Ullrich, Rasmussen and Millar got it.

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Mononucleosis-and-EPO---Is-There-a-Connection?&id=1063041
     
  23. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Exactly. This doesn't fit into haters' fantasy world though :rolleyes:
     
  24. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

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    So this is the New Nadal news thread, no?
     
  25. SLD76

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    Li won the French Open 3 years ago at age 28 which still fits this new 'older is better' trend.

    ETA: Ferrer was also linked to Tennis Val
     
  26. ivan_the_terrible

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    That theory has been refuted.

    Assuming it's true, are we to assume that Nadal & Djoker are in danger of getting it? How about the rest of the players?
     
  27. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    It's still more than what the idiots accusing Nadal of doping have ever had.
     
  28. ivan_the_terrible

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    Except that Fed's doping regimen failed to yield success against Nadal.

    If I were Fed, I'd be looking elsewhere for a doping doc. I have a few suggestions for him ;)
     
  29. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Drugs are just "part of the business" in high level sports. I don't know why we think this guy is taking them but this guy couldn't be. All these athletes abuse their bodies to achieve greatness. There is no way they could do this day/week/month/year in and out without the drugs. No way.

    Read the interview with Angel Heredia.

    http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f13/angel-heredia-interview-sports-doping-1927491/


    SPIEGEL: Can drugs make anyone into a world record holder?

    Heredia: No, that is a misapprehension: “You take a couple of tablets today and tomorrow you can really fly.” In reality you have to train inconceivably hard, be very talented and have a perfect team of trainers and support staff. And then it is the best drugs that make the difference. It is all a great composition, a symphony. Everything is linked together, do you understand? And drugs have a long-term effect: they ensure that you can recover, that you avoid the catabolic phases. Volleyball on the beach might be healthy, but peak athletics is not healthy. You destroy your body.
     
  30. Gustavo Kuerten

    Gustavo Kuerten Rookie

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    Nadal and Federer are obviously using different substances.
     
  31. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Money, money, money in sport, not drugs

    Heredia: Are you kidding me? No. All countries, all federations, all top athletes are affected, and among those responsible are the big shoe companies like Nike and Adidas. I know athletes who broke records; a year later they were injured and they got the call: “We’re cutting your sponsorship money by 50 percent.” What do you think such athletes then do?

    SPIEGEL: With Marion Jones ...

    Heredia: ... it was about the recovery phases. In 2000 she competed in one event after another, and she needed to relax. I gave her epo, growth hormone, adrenaline injections, insulin. Insulin helps after training, together with protein drinks: insulin transports protein and minerals more quickly through the cell membrane.

    SPIEGEL: Jones was afraid of needles.

    Heredia: Yes, that’s why C. J. Hunter, her husband at the time, and her trainer Trevor Graham mixed her three substances in one injection. I advised them against it because I thought it was risky.

    SPIEGEL: What kind of relationship did you have with your athletes?

    Heredia: Business ties. It was all about levels and dosing. I rarely spoke with Marion. It was done through her coaches.

    Part II: How Heredia outwitted the drug testers and became the dealer to the world’s best athletes.

    SPIEGEL: Was there a doping cycle?

    Heredia: Yes. When the season ended in October, we waited for a couple of weeks for the body to cleanse itself. Then in November, we loaded growth hormone and epo, and twice a week we examined the body to make sure that no lumps were forming in the blood. Then we gave testosterone shots. This first program lasted eight to ten weeks, then we took a break.
     
  32. ivan_the_terrible

    ivan_the_terrible Hall of Fame

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    I disagree - Nadal is clean and Fed's doping:

    - Fed never gets injured - sure sign he's on drugs

    - Fed never gets tired - check out his 5-set record

    - Fed plays an exhausting style of game - sometimes serves and volleys, he regularly throws in 120mph 1st bombs. His practices a whole hour before every match. He plays close to baseline and almost always the one to end long rallies.

    - Fed got mono - all epo dopers get mono.

    - Only a doped Fed could beat Rafa 10 times out of 33
     
  33. anantak2k

    anantak2k Semi-Pro

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    Fed just never shows on court if he is tired of injured. Get over it... stop it with the hatred.
     
  34. Gustavo Kuerten

    Gustavo Kuerten Rookie

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    If you think Federer is clean you are either very naive or very delusional and in complete denial because he is your favorite.

    Ferrer is my favorite player, but I have no problem admitting he is doping, because foremost I care about the sport instead of just blindly fanboying my favorite player without addressing the things that aren't right in this world.
     
  35. bluegrasser

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    Baseball is the only sport that has put a good effort into banning substance, just look at the #'s how they're down, proof of the pudding.
     
  36. dafinch

    dafinch Banned

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    Anybody who disagrees with you is an idiot, huh? Very mature. It's easy to see why I was hoping your abrupt disappearance after BP got tuned up would last a lot longer.
     
  37. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    In all honesty, it's pretty clear to me that all she does is use the same rhetorical tactics she watched the Pinochetistas deploy while she was growing up. The real irony is that, ultimately, theirs was a lost cause too! ;)
     
  38. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Fixed that for you. Great poast nonetheless ;)
     
  39. chicagodude

    chicagodude Professional

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    It seems that you think of PEDs as only leading to increased strength/muscle mass....

    It's very simple, there are PEDs that can help you with stamina, strength, recovery and even focus (not with mental strength afaik, although that could be an indirect effect of increased confidence I guess).
    The lame argument that tennis is a skill-sport and therefore PEDs wouldn't help is BS. PEDs can help you recover faster, can help you with stamina and strength, and can therefore help you train more, stay focused during a match longer since you're less fatigued, etc.

    PEDs will not lead to any loss of touch, volleys etc, unless you use them to help you rapidly gain muscle mass, maybe.
     
  40. chicagodude

    chicagodude Professional

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    ^This.

    Let's be honest, any player will have aspects/phases in his career that one could point at as suspect. Is it suspicious that Nadal has injuries including a lengthy lay-off? Or is it suspicious that Federer has been playing pretty much injury-free for over a decade, winning tournament after tournament? Or that Djokovic suddenly gained extra stamina during the offseason? Anything can be explained as either suspicious or as not suspicious at all (both sides usually argued by the fans and haters of a player).

    It is unfortunate that so many here still consider 'evidence' what a player looks like or what playing style he uses. From history we should all know by now that it is pretty much impossible to know whether someone uses or not just by observing him.

    Nadal is muscular, absolutely, but not excessively so, and anyone who has devoted himself to a strict training regime knows that his physique is nothing out of the ordinary. His injury lay-offs can be explained by doping use, certainly possible, but at the same time he has always been more prone to injuries than some other players.
    Djokovic' somewhat sudden gain in 2011 could be PED use, of course, but the difference with his level before that wasn't that ridiculous, not something unattainable with a better fitness/diet/whatever regimen.
    Murray certainly gained muscle mass quickly, but again nothing that extraordinary.
    And Federer? Well, he was never super muscular, but his sheer level of consistency and constant deep runs in every tournament could raise eyebrows. Could he be simply so much more talented than everybody else? Certainly, and yet he could also have added to his natural skills by using PEDs that help in stamina/recovery.

    Frankly, if you're convinced that 1 top player is doping but think to know for sure that another top player is not, then you're likely either blinded by your like/dislike for them, or just plain ignorant about all the different PED types. The fact is simply that none of us can tell or know about any of the players doping, nor should we label them as guilty just on baseless accusations.

    Edit: I should probably add that personally, I think that the current playing level and amount of money involved in tennis, the large majority of players in the top-50 uses some type of PEDs.
    This is probably true for all sports that involve a lot of money, and even (although to a lesser extent) in sports with little money. Don't underestimate the desire to be a winner compared to the desire for financial gain.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  41. JustBob

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    Note that as the article states, PRP injections are perfectly legal and many athletes have used them. However, since (some) research has shown that the effectiveness of PRP injections is questionable (i.e. no difference between PRP injections and saline injections in the control group), one might wonder if the real benefit is in the "side effects".
     
  42. chjtennis

    chjtennis Legend

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    I think it's easier to pick female cheaters. Some female players have shoulder and arm muscles that wouldn't be possible without the help of steroid.
     
  43. Federer302

    Federer302 Guest

    Decided not to create a thread. Only those who want to read this should

    This is of course just an article by a journalist. Just sort of summarizes the things most have mentioned. But it gives it more authority as posters just get accused of being trolls, idiots or haters for saying much of the same.

    He does mis-quote Nole mind.

    A Racket with no net.

     
  44. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting. The truth is, I don't know what to think anymore. I also thought it's not a sport that could benefit from steroids but the people who've made this into a billion dollar industry are very smart. They're creating incredible products for incredible athletes to produce incredible performances.
     
  45. Federer302

    Federer302 Guest

    Tennis players could defiantly benefit from PEDs. Recovering from a hard match and feeling no affects the next day or not getting tired during a 5 setter.

    However the key point imo is that because tennis is a skill based sport doping is not necessary to win and that is incredibly important. If it becomes impossible to win clean then athletes feel they have no choice but to dope. (cycling being an example)

    Tennis players can win clean and plenty are. Yes some are doping and some previous slam champions probably doped. But I am pretty confident that the majority are doing it the right way.

    I would bet everything I own on Murray(2 time slam champion) being clean. I am pretty sure many others are as well.
     
  46. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    I think all the top guys are clean. They simply have too much to lose if they get caught. It would be unbelievable stupidity for a multi-millionaire to lose it all in this manner. The users are most probably low ranked players feeling the pressure of the years piling on and the burden of all they have already invested in return for injuries and separation from loved ones.
     
  47. Chanwan

    Chanwan Legend

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    While tennis is indeed skill-based, you don't get far with skill if you don't have the necessary speed, endurance, power and recovery to go along with it. To quote the article you just posted:
    "So here is a sport where huge advantages are accorded by upper-body power and where there’s a need for huge endurance and explosive bursts across consecutive hours and days. Stamina can equal EPO. Strength can equal anabolic steroids. Recovery can equal testosterone. Agility can equal stimulants. Little wonder, when asked if he knew how widespread doping was in tennis, former Wada President John Fahey said: “No I don’t and nor do I think tennis knows how widespread it is.” "

    Some are less or more suspect, but saying that Murray def. does not dope is not quite right imo.
    I'm afraid this is naive at best (Fed mentioned the naivety as well). Armstrong had a lot to lose too. So did Marion Jones and a bunch load of others.
    And in tennis, you have no history of targeting the biggest stars. Rather, you have a history of not targeting Agassi and you have a history of incredibly few tests in general and even more so when it comes to out-of-competition, blood tests, EPO etc.
    Bio passport might help a bit.

    In other words, you have a situation, where the top guys (with access to the best stuff) can expect relatively few tests and tests that are often not testing for most of the good stuff. Moreover, as has been proven again and again over the years, the dopers are almost always ahead of the testers, because doping is where the best money is.

    The one thing that makes me think it's harder to dope in tennis is this: You travel the globe all the time. Getting stuff through the airport all the time can't be easy (I would imagine)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2014
  48. octobrina10

    octobrina10 Hall of Fame

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    Doping is a Swiss thingy (f.e. Armstrong).
     
  49. Federer302

    Federer302 Guest

    The Murray thing is just my personal feeling. If there was one player I had to pick to be clean it would be him.

    Regarding doping, a lot of it is down to coaches etc. Very rare that any sportsman would just be like ''I want to start doping'' Someone offers them stuff, tells them everyone is doing it, it is their only choice...

    So in terms of tennis it could be down to National Federations etc. There may be a culture in some countries.

    They would have started before their first slam victory in the vast majority of cases.

    But I agree with the stuff about lower ranked players. They are just trying to put food on the table, sporting integrity is no issue, it is just a job.

    Can you please keep you trolling elsewhere. some of us are trying to have a sensible conversation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2014
  50. Chanwan

    Chanwan Legend

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    thought this one deserved a bump. If it's correct with the growth hormone effect, then this is a very, very grey area that should be looked into by the relevant agencies. I mean, if growth hormone and nandrolone are prohibited in and off itself, why allow treatments that in effect give you a higher "natural" production of those things?
    Murky...
     

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