The Forehand: Busting misconceptions once and for all

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by 10isfreak, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't find kick serves a problem. They always seem to be angling out and counter spin works. This guy's spin is very straight. The counter spin would be to hit it perfectly up with a horizontal racket, which is not possible.

    I think it is too difficult to explain and this guy is not like anyone you might have encountered.
     
    #51
  2. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    As I understand your main questions are

    1. How can you eliminate incoming ball’s spin?

    2. How can you create your own desirable ball’s spin?

    1. IMO, the easiest way to eliminate incoming ball’s spin is hard hitting through the ball (big normal component) around sweet spot – flat stroke. This creates digging effect. The ball digs into string bed, strings hug the ball very hard and stop ball’s rotation. The ball’s outgoing direction will coincide with normal to the racquet’s face. This approach a lot of pros apply very successfully in case of swing volley and kick serve return. Good example is Sharapova. She absolutely doesn’t care about the type of incoming ball’s spin as soon as she is able to meet the ball around sweet spot.

    2. If you want create your own spin, just add desirable tangential component to the racquet velocity.

    You better forget about creating counter spin by using vertical or whatever tangential component because it is very difficult to control. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
    #52
  3. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    hey guys.

    are you guys discussing how to return a heavy topspin shot? or are you talking about slice or maybe even side spin?

    just hit the ball fast enough and the spin it has won't "roll over" your racquet face. you may have to adjust depending on how high the incoming ball is, the direction of it's travel and type of spin (before or after the bounce).

    spin is only an issue in these scenarios:
    1 - if you are not using high-racquet-head-speed, e.g. blocking a return, drop volley, dinking it over the net or other low racquet head speed feel shots. that's the only scenario where the spin affects contact in a material manner.
    2 - (a) if you are hitting after the bounce and the spin places you in a difficult or unexpected position relative to the ball, or messes with your timing. e.g. kick serves, drop shots, trick backspin shots that head back towards the net, strong slices, unexpectedly heavy topspin balls that kick-up high or that kick forward after the bounce
    2 - (b) the ball turns in the air and messes with your timing. e.g. sidespin slice.

    to address scenario 1 you need either better technique/feel (i.e. practice) or better racquet head speed as appropriate.

    to address scenario 2 you need to focus on the ball better and work on adjusting your timing to these shots.

    this is all assuming that you are actually able to hit the shot that you want to use under normal circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
    #53
  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Can't agree with this although it is more rare. Also both are relative terms based
    on what the receiver perceives in both cases.
     
    #54
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    +1 for this above.
     
    #55
  6. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    I agree with the 'hard hitting' part, but not the 'digging effect part'.

    at impact the ball is trying to climb up the bed, while your low to high swing path is trying to counter that action by forcing the ball down the bed.... so there is merit in the 'hard hitting' so that the racket can dominate the ball.

    but, the 'digging effect' is not what you want to persue... because the deeper the dig, the stronger the 'climbing' effect as well..

    empirical evidence - to play against the same heavy topspin ball, it's much less effort using a crisp string bed like OGSM, than using a softer bed with natural gut.

    it only makes sense - if heavy top comes in, and you hit it with a sheet of glass, there is no spin for you to overcome, as the ball simply cannot climb up the bed.
     
    #56
  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I was kidding. duh
     
    #57
  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Oooops, sorry about that. many on here do believe that and I was scratching
    my head at you agreeing, lol.
     
    #58
  9. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    lol. yea i was just teasing toly.
     
    #59
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He is one of the most delicate tennis players in the world, so be careful
     
    #60
  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I am going to go with this. Just came back playing another Nadal - this one a lefty wearing a sleeveless shirt too. Not that irritating vertical spin of the other guy, but nasty spin attacks to my backhand. I needed to consciously tighten by grip at impact (remind me to make it a habit) and drive through it.

    So far, ego has been standing in my way. I was trying to out-Nadal these Nadals with counter spin. Probably best to accept reality and hit flat.
     
    #61
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    You did not realize he was kidding?
     
    #62
  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Not following this fully, but are you saying someone can consciously create digging effect?
     
    #63
  14. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    So far you are not able to apprehend any of my post. :(

    Sorry, but I just don’t know how to communicate with you. What is your education and work experience or maybe you are just 10 years old kid? :confused:

    Also read please post # 60.:)
     
    #64
  15. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    There is a traditional clasp brake: the brake shoe (brown) bears on the surface of the wheel (red), and is operated by the levers (grey) on the left.
    [​IMG]

    IMO if ball digs into strings, they work as traditional clasp brake, so they can stop ball rotation. :)
     
    #65
  16. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Another post of interest for you

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=449122&page=17
    post #326 maybe of interest to you
    regards,
    Julian
     
    #66
  17. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Item #2

    Item #2
    Time is 2-4 miliseconds
     
    #67
  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    This thread is pretty good with concrete stuff. Already producing results for me.
     
    #68
  19. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I think it would be instructive if the blog site where the angle of the closed racquets was measured also measured the incoming angle and speed of the ball.

    I really don't believe there is anything more to this closed face argument than necessity. If you hit with someone who hits relatively hard with a good amount of spin, then you will naturally learn to close the racquet face to counter the angle of the incoming ball. This was mentioned earlier in the thread in a slightly different way.

    If the ball is coming in to you at a moderate pace at or after it's apex then no adjustment is necessary. If however the ball is launching off the court and coming up at you before it reaches it's apex, you will need to close the face.

    Also, hitting with a slightly closed face and at or below center is more sound in the same way pulling is more controlled than pushing.

    Anyway, there's my 2¢. :)
     
    #69
  20. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    If you want to over topspin “small Nadals" you have to use “big Nadal” techniques: straight arm, semiwestern/western grip, very intensive forearm pronation and Internal Shoulder Rotation, bend back wrist at contact more then 45°.

    Also see please http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5260024#post5260024. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
    #70
  21. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    some equipment adjustment can help too.

    if you have played pingpong with those pedals with no rubber on it (just bare wood), you will know that there is very little effect from the spin (top or under).. same idea for tennis, the shorter the dwell time, the less energy a spinny ball can transfer to the racket face (less the other way also)... stiffer frame, stiffer strings will require less effort to overcome the spin.

    it's a battle between the ball and the racket... you need mass... the lowest hanging fruit is sticking a few strips of lead tapes on the frame... you will suddenly notice them 'mini nadals' are merely ***** cats.
     
    #71
  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    do you have a reference saying that racket swung more aggressively, thus
    creating slightly more pocketing, will increase dwell time over that same stick
    swung less aggressively where slightly less pocketing occurs?

    Not saying it's wrong, but just have not seen that. Could well be correct, as not
    the kind of thing I am normally concerned with.

    I don't think the mass trick will work, as if the string job was on the grill of a
    car moving slowly, the spinning ball would still tend to climb the strings despite
    the mass of the car grill, right? Especially on a ball taken on the rise.
     
    #72
  23. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    the dwell time vs. swing speed.. i don't have a reference... but if i have to boil it down to a basic physics model of 2 springs (ball and stringbed) colliding with each other, then the dwell time is solely dependent on the spring constants (how stiff the string bed and the ball is), but independent of how much the 2 springs are compressed.

    the racket on the slow car -- that's a logical fallacy.... when we introduce a new variable (more mass on racket), we have to assume the other conditions being equal, meaning the player swings at the (roughly) the same speed.

    you have coached tennis for so long and you don't know how lead tape works? that's shocking.
     
    #73
  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Not only rude, but mis info AGAIN...

    I may not know everything about using lead
    tape. At least I'm not so arrogant that I can't admit it.
    But I've customized and used lead tape for many different effects over the years.
    And no, you can't assume the rhs will be the same with added lead...in fact,
    makes more sense imo to expect it won't be. Generally it will alter the swing
    wt and change how the racket will feel and swing...sometimes faster, & sometimes
    slower.
     
    #74
  25. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    that's why i said (roughly) the same... you add 10 grams of lead to a 350 gram racket to make it 360 grams, it will have SIGNIFICANT effect on dominating a spinny ball.... but it will not slow down to a slow moving car.

    so a fallacy is still a fallacy, even if you put lipstick on it.

    ok so you have customized rackets and you have not noticed how just a few grams of lead can significantly change its ability to dominate the ball?

    that IS shocking.
     
    #75
  26. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe be so. Maybe because I don't have trouble dominating a ball?
     
    #76
  27. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    i thought we were talking about sureshs trying to dominate the mini nadal.

    on the other hand, majority of the pros don't play with stock sold to the general public, that oughta tell you something about dominating the ball
     
    #77
  28. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe you are right. It's not been a problem that has come up for me or my
    students.
    We use lead for many other reasons though. I expect the pros have a variety
    of reasons as well.
    Your reason may be valid and I was mainly just asking more.
    I'm not sold though.
     
    #78
  29. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i'd have to go with the lead factor too. especially if it's at 3-9. that increased plow through seems to help countering spin. or at least it 'seems' that way.
     
    #79
  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    but wouldn't that frame plow thru give more pocketing like toly was saying?
     
    #80
  31. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    most recs play with rackets that are too light. it's much easier to add weight than to remove, so rackets are meant to be leaded.
     
    #81
  32. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    more pocketing - yes.... ball will be compressed more.... but dwell time? who knows.... i am betting on 'roughly' the same.

    but just from empirical evidence..... thinking about 2 extremes.... you hit it with 1 oz racket, and you hit it with 20 oz racket.... you will never worry about the ball climbing up the strings with the latter..

    but adding lead tape reaches a point of diminishing return, around 12-13 oz for most players.
     
    #82
  33. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    in my opinion yes. that's what i think. but i can't remember any specific data i've seen on this.
     
    #83
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Isn't this what toly was saying?
     
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  35. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Vertical acceleration vs horizontal one

    Other point is that the vertical acceleration is much higher than horizontal one
     
    #85
  36. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    what do you say regarding racket tilt and spin potential as a scientist? are there any studies on this?
     
    #86
  37. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I need more time-probably evening today

    I need more time-probably evening today
     
    #87
  38. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes there are studies. even on this site. they have a video in a lab of a ball being hit with a perpendicular racquet and a ball with a tilted racquet at same speed. tilt produces more spin.
     
    #88
  39. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Some pieces of info

    Racket tilt should be used very carefully when returning serve
    A concept of tilt should be dropped if two many returns go to a net
     
    #89
  40. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    References:

    1) Investigations into the Effect of Grip Tightness
    on Off-Centre Forehand Strikes in Tennis
    S Choppin*, S Goodwill, and S Haake
    http://intl-pip.sagepub.com/content/224/4/249.full.pdf+html
    Just found this reference on the topic. Have not yet read.

    2) TW article , Which Strings Generate the Most Spin (2010), R. Cross & C. Lindsey
    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinexperiment.php

    3) ITF Ball Impact with Wall
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGsntCznhcY

    4) ITF – Spagetti Strings impacting ball.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=CTuudvw78lU&feature=endscreen

    5) Slow Motion Impact of Tennis Ball and Racket – Head. Rapid racket turn but exact degree of off-center hit is not clear.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=7pXNLaZZCXM

    6) Tennis Racket Hits Tennis Ball - High Speed Fun. On a serve shows, the racket pause at impact.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k9w0tAO340

    7) TW article– String Lubrication and Spin
    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinandlube.php
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2013
    #90
  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    My frame RA is 65 and tension is 60 lbs. Weight is 12.5 oz all together, probably 8 pts HL
     
    #91
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Next time I will show you my racket. Let me know if you think lead is needed. I am wary of putting lead on a PS85 as it feels so perfect.
     
    #92
  43. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    ps85 with no lead? lol no wonder mini nadal's ball is climbing up on it.
     
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  44. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is another ego thing. Time to retire that frame.
     
    #94
  45. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I don't think anyone can tell you if you need lead, how much, or where. It's a feel thing. Buy a roll and put some on. See how it feels. Experiment. I think it could help, but you'll have to give yourself time to get used to it. You'll need to start your swing a tad earlier and it will not be friendly to arming the ball, but once you get the racquet moving it can help you hit a heavier ball.
     
    #95
  46. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    put minimum 5 grams of lead on the hoop, you may have something marginally playable.... otherwise the sweet spot is big as a quarter.

    and you can't really yank to the left with this thing.
     
    #96
  47. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    yes. don't ask a lead guy if you need lead.
    you have to experiment for yourself. i say try it. personally i can't play w/ a light racquet. feels like a toy. especially nice on outstretched balls. just get the racquet on it and the ball goes over. no muscles needed.
     
    #97
  48. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    you think a 12.5 ps85 is light?
     
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  49. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    a ps85 is 12.5? had no idea. no i don't think that's light.
    i just figured suresh played with a toy.
     
    #99
  50. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    10pts HL, against a mini nadal, it's likely a relaxed swing cannot dominate the ball.
     

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