The G.O.A.T F1 driver retires once and for all.

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by tistrapukcipeht, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Michael Schumacher, the best there ever was, finally retired again after a horrendous come back.

    Good luck to you König!
     
    #1
  2. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,402
    This was an interesting comeback for sure - with his first comeback season especially being an unmitigated failure (beaten in every race by his team-mate .. well, once the penalty at Monaco was factored in). Glad he achieved a podium at least!

    He was a talent almost beyond compare in his era but was smart enough to make sure he was in the right place with the right team and support around him. The thing that irks me (and I'm sure many others) is how he couldn't endear himself to the world more even when he was clearly number 1 - even Prost used to make an effort - and why he routinely would make use of unfair advantage or plain cheat to get what he wanted - and then explain it away as if it never happened. Clearly he's a rare genius - sad to see him go without being able to show much of his previous magic in more than a couple of overtaking moves.
     
    #2
  3. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,069
    GOAT in the electronic era maybe
    the absolute goat is and will always be Ayrton Senna
     
    #3
  4. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    That's the difference between the him and all others, He was real on and off the camera, what you see is what he is, no lies, not a pretender like most would be, He was there to win, not to hang out, almost a "bad-boy" only because He was that guy, not to mention that he was the best professional in the history of this sport as well, hard worker, never a cry-baby. He was just himself.

    I have been watching F1 since 86, Piquet punching Salazar, Prost trying to be someone He wasn't, Senna always whining and complaining when He didn't get what he wanted ( ALA Nadal), now you have a fake Hamilton, Alonso who complains a lot as well.

    Schumacher didn't care about others, like most didn't but pretended so, he minded his own business and did what He needed to, I loved when He got a seat on F1 and from the get go never bowed to anybody. Either people hated him because of that or loved him because of that, I personally loved it, F1 isn't tennis, where everybody is friendly, practice with each other pretend all to be the nicest person, F1 is the jungle, and Schumacher came to the jungle to beat everybody- became the best there ever- nobody comes even close. He took Ferrari a garbage made it the best won more than everybody.

    The come back was awful, he couldn't practice as much as he needed and Mercedes had bought a team that hadn't developed a car since the beginning of previous year's season, so he got in a hot see to start off, but who would deny $30 mil Euros a year to enjoy himself without having anything to prove at all??
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
    #4
  5. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    540
    Location:
    Havre de Grace, MD
    You are just lucky that ole number 3 the intimidator stayed in nascar and never went to that f1. sr would have beasted and goated all over those euro f1 panisies in nothing more than a chevy impala, all while driving one handed drinking a can of bud with a dip of skoal in bottom lip and a winston in his mouth.
     
    #5
  6. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    I don't even have words for such rubbish statement, :oops: [​IMG]
     
    #6
  7. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I for one do not consider Michael Schmuacher the best or GOAT F1 Driver of all time. Maybe the greatest in the sense he probably has the best stats, but that is it. The vast majority of his dominance is through a ridiculously dominant car. He did win 2 titles with Benneton who were never the dominant car, but many have won titles with a car further off the top than that, but all others were won in a dominant Ferrari killing all other cars. The years the Ferrari wasnt the fastest he didnt win, even over clearly inferior drivers like Jacques Villeneuve for instance, even though he sometimes came close. If Vettel matches or surpasses his # of F1 drivers titles with 7 or 8, will he be conceded as better? After all the fastest car excuse is also true of Michael, but to an even greater degree as this was the all time height of Ferrari's power. Even his relatively mediocre teammate Ruebens Barichello won many races and was often 2nd in the drivers championships. He was also aided by team orders quite often, even so blatantly displayed as a few races his teammate had to pull over near the finishing line allowing him to pass for the win, until finally the foot came down so hard one of those times they had to be more subtle. No doubt an amazing champion, one of the all time greats, and probably the most winningest driver of all time but for me not quite the #1. BBC recently came out with a list of the 20 greatest F1 Drivers ever and I tend to agree with, especialy when they rated Michael:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158


    The only things I disagree with are Alonso's ranking, should be higher, probably somewhere from 6-8, and bumping Vettel down behind Alonso. Also disagree with Hamilton being on the list. Should be bumped off and replaced by Raikkonen. Other than that pretty much perfect. IMO Senna imparticular (comparing someone close to the same era) at his best was definitely better than Schumacher at his best, but sadly we never got to discover in entirety who was better due to his tragic passing, but many would argue for Senna and many for Michael, but obviously the people who selected this list side with Senna.

    If Alonso can reach 4 or 5 F1 drivers titles somehow though I think I would rate him the best ever. Why? Since it is looking increasingly likely, with Ferrari's days of producing the fastest cars seemingly a thing of the past for the moment, and a long contract with Ferrari already set, he will go through virtually his whole career without ever having the fastest car. On top of that he missed several other titles by a whisker now with far from the fastest car as well. Renault which he won two F1 titles with was far from the fastest those years, even though they were still a top 3 or 4 car for the only time of their career which probably showed another of Alonso's great contributions, aiding in the car development. The only year he arguably had the best car was his one year with McLaren where he and Hamilton's hissy fit sabatoged both and allowed Raikkonen in a slower Ferrari to came from way behind to beat both for the drivers title at the end.
     
    #7
  8. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    I don't really care what you think nor the BBC ranking. BBC is a joke, what do they know.

    Useless arguments all over.

    Of course Alonso won the 2 titles with Renault with Renault being the best car, although at the end of his last title Ferrari had already been faster, but with the engine breaking in Suzuka, the problem in the qualifying in Brazil, the flat tire when passing Fisichela and having to run the entire lap just to pit and put new tyres on probably don't tell the story.

    Don't forget the Michelin tires gave half second advantage to the cars using it, not to forget the FIA did everything to slow down Ferrari and stop Michael of winning more, changing the rules every year until the years they got the job done.

    Senna first and Piquet 16th, that tells a lot. End of talk, believe in what you want, at the end Michael Schumacher is still the best ever until somebody wins 8 titles and have all other records.

    In no way Ferrari was the best car in 2000 and 2001, they had Schumacher, the difference, He would have won the title in both competitive cars against any driver.
     
    #8
  9. ramos77

    ramos77 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    605
    x2


    schumacher had team mates that pulled over to the side of the road when he was behind them.

    Senna had the likes of Prost to deal with. we will never know how many titles he would have won.

    He had the most raw skills of any driver IMO.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
    #9
  10. PSNELKE

    PSNELKE Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2009
    Messages:
    6,134
    LMFAO Vettel ahead of Alonso??

    Nothing to add there.
     
    #10
  11. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    6,029
    The "sport" of auto racing doesn't particularly demand youth. Paul Newman co-drove a Porsche 935 to a 2nd place finish at LeMans when he was in his 50s, won a pair of SCCA GT1 championships in his 60s, won the GTS championship at 24 hours of Daytona when he was 70, and last drove in the Daytona race when he was 80. He started racing at 47.
     
    #11
  12. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Dont make me laugh. Overall for the year McLaren the year of Alonso's first title, and Ferrari the year of his second title were both much faster and everyone knows it. Everyone except you apparently. Look where Renault were immediately once Alonso left them, LOL!


    So if Vettel wins 8 F1 titles in a dominant Red Bull you are conceding him better than Schumacher with no excuses of the car. Good to know.


    I already knew you were a bit delusional when you denied Rosburg has been better than Schumacher the last couple years in the same car, even though every single statistic between them indicates it (and yes I know that Schmacher isnt in his prime and I am not judging his overall abilities based on that, but that is aside the point). Sometimes love is blind (or fandom).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2012
    #12
  13. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Agreed, Senna > Schumacher. I could Schumacher at #2 perhaps.
     
    #13
  14. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Didn't Senna have Berger helping him out in 1992??

    Didn't Senna vetoed, Mansell and/or Michael Schumacher to be his team mate in 94?

    I'm teaching you right here what you don't know, there is a lot of things about Senna that most didn't know, his contract with Williams and how it happened not many knew, that's the reason why Mansell couldn't come back in 94 from Indy, same thing happened with Prost in 93, didn't not allow Schumacher to be his team mate, they all knew what would have happened.
    Senna will never, not even in his best dream be in the same league
     
    #14
  15. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Your lack of knowledge and information is equal of a 15 y.o that just started to watch F1.

    Renault had a much better car and better tires (Michelin) for both years and Alonso won, in fact Schumacher didn't even contend for the title in 2005. Renault was far the best car of 2005 even won the Constructor Championship as well, Schumacher probably won 1 race, if much.

    In 2006 if it wasn't for Schumacher Ferrari would have succumbed just like the prior season, and again Renault won both titles, i wonder why.

    It doesn't matter the car, if Vettel wins 8 titles, wins 92 races, 68 poles, more hat tricks, more fastest laps and all other records, yes he will be the best ever, is sports who wins more is the best, that's that simple.
     
    #15
  16. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    Senna was the Nadal of F1, always whining and crying about everything.

    Senna drove probably one of the best cars in history of the sport, the Mclaren 88, only lost one race because Mansell was a beast on his day, faster and better driver than both Senna and Prost, only problem was his consistency, therefore he didn't win as much.

    It's going good to remind everybody that season of 91, 92 and 93 until half of the season, Schumacher drove with stick shift while all others had semi automatic gear shift.

    Let's not forget as well that Schumacher finished in front of Senna in his first full season, 1992, despite having worse equipment. Senna had traction control on his Mclaren while Schumacher was still driving with stick shift and V8 engine against Ferrari's V12, Renault V10...

    As you talk a lot about Alonso, don't forget about what caused Briattore to be expelled from F1's world and now with Ferrari don't forget about changing gear box of Massa's car so He can get another position, don't forget about Massa having to let him go by a few times.

    And the irony of all, this happens in every successful team, it is F1, there is nothing wrong with it, so for those who like to nitpick, be reasonable when you choose to do it.

    No matter what it is, Senna drove 10 years and only won when He had the best car, never He won a title with an inferior car, the 1991 for half of the season he counted on a better car and Williams' reliability problems and mistakes by "El Lion" .

    Senna may be the 4th or 5th greatest F1 driver until now, bot nowhere near top 3.
     
    #16
  17. TennisLovaLova

    TennisLovaLova Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,069
    I dont even have words for such rubbish statements.
     
    #17
  18. TERRASTAR18

    TERRASTAR18 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,694
    how is ham fake? but mr. corporate, schummy is sooo real? you act like you know these ppl personally.....schuumy would run ppl off the road, a real class act he was....but i guess its typical german trolling from you.
     
    #18
  19. TERRASTAR18

    TERRASTAR18 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,694
    and how many titles did vettel win at torro rosso again in a newey-less car.
     
    #19
  20. SempreSami

    SempreSami Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,627
    Location:
    UK
    That dirty move on Hill in 1994 stained his career.

    *inb4 the apologists moan about the FIA suspending him that year*
     
    #20
  21. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    How many has Alonso won without the best car?

    How many has Hamilton won?? Mclaren this year was at least the second best car overall and sometimes the best car, towards the end of this season McLaren was better than Red Bull, still Vettel came from 30-40 points behind and won the Championship with great drives from dead last.

    Vettel would have won this Championship with McLaren as well.

    The best drive in a season by any driver with a worse equipment, contending for the title, that didn't win a Championship was 1998, this was the best ever performance during an entire season by a driver that didn't win the title.

    McLaren was 1.5s faster than Ferrari, yet Schumacher won several races with some of the most brilliant drives in history, Argentina 1998 was one of the best ever.
     
    #21
  22. tistrapukcipeht

    tistrapukcipeht Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,324
    That was completely deserved, as great as Schumacher drove that year beat Senna 4-0, with that V8 engine 15-20 KM/H slower than Renault at top speed points, if Hill won that Championship with Schumacher being disqualified in 2 races and suspended for another 2 would have been pitiful.

    Schumacher competed in 12 races and won the Championship.

    Alonso doesn't throw his car on people, He had Piquet Jr to do it for him with incredible management by Briattori.
     
    #22

Share This Page