The "God" Argument ... (Moved from another thread)

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bungalo Bill, Jul 17, 2006.

  1. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Niether has the big bang proven itself. :) Common sense tells me there is so much intricate design in everything we see and in all systems that cause this universe to operate (inlcuding the systems in the human being, ecology, etc..), that something or someone had one thought in bringing it to being. Man creates, God creates.

    For me, it takes more faith to believe that it happened by accident then simply realizing their is someone greater than fallible man.
     
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  2. tennis_nerd22

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    and there is, good post. there is a God obviously
     
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  3. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    You clearly have a different vision than mine. I think starting at a young age is necessary. You don`t see many pro players that started at 12/13/16 years old. To develop the champions of the future, you need to start young, as we do.

    About my situation. No I am not teaching in Canada, but somewhere on the other side of the ocean. The kids we work with are all talented, because that is why we selected them.

    I continu saying: you should start early. Motor skills and tennis technique is developed before puberty. Before puberty, tennis technique should be almost fully developed. If you start late, you just don`t have the time for that.

    You do think there is a creator because it all looks so designed? Because it all looks so perfect? That`s called evolution: survival of the fittest. Maybe it isn`t perfect. How do you know it is perfect? You have nothing to compare it with. God didn`t create man, man created god. It`s like some water in a like. The water looks around and says: "Hey, the hole seems to fit me perfectly well! It must have specially made by someone!"

    Man created god, and with god he created a lot of trouble. Millions and millions of religious deaths. The Bush government not wanting to help Africa because their so-called "Christianity" Many mass executions of pagans during the centuries. The conflict in the middle east. The crusades. The Christianization. The killing of christians in the Roman Empire. The sacrifization of people in Aztec culture. I can go on with this list for ages....
     
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  4. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    WOW, I guess you did not work with Michael Chang. He gives all his credit and success to God.
     
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  5. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Well I can certainly understand your position that man takes something and ends up distorting it, twisting it, and ruining it. We always take something meant for good and manage to turn it into something for self-gain.

    I think even you are guilty of doing that. You are just a man full of perversion, conceit, sin, lonliness, dispair, misguided purpose, psuedo-control over your life, arrogant in thought, rebellious in heart, and denying the existance of someone greater than you, etc...we all are. We are human beings created for a purpose but never realized the purpose coming out of the gates.

    WHY ARE YOU DIFFERENT? You are just like me. A man that realized I dont have the answers to life, that man for centuries has tried to solve their own problems and simply can't do it.

    However, I believe God is good and man has consistently messed up God's vision over and over again whether it be Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist or anyone else. We will all answer for our own lives.

    Quit blaming your parents, your parents parents, history, etc...

    We can bring up all beliefs and systems and find something wrong with everything.
     
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  6. tennis_nerd22

    tennis_nerd22 Hall of Fame

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    i definitely agree with that statement. i cant believe you dont believe in god nickybol, but whatever, everyone has their own views and opinions on everything. accepted.

    however, if god wants you to succeed at something, he will give you the 'tools' (like talent, will, 'know-how', 'inner drive', determination) to succeed. its up to you to exercise and take full usage of them. i believe i have a talent, ive been told i do, so im going to make the most of it that i can. whether that be college, pro, GOAT, or not even going far. all i know is i will do my best to get to where i want to be. whether it happends or not is not in my hands. it's in God's hands. and when people tell me "no you cant do that" or "no your too young" or "you cant because there's already good players, and your level and ranking is way too low" or "no because you didnt start early", it makes me more determined. why? because no one can control how far i can go, only God and my inner self can. if im not supposed to go far in tennis, no matter how hard i try, i wont. BUT if i AM supposed to get far in tennis, if its in "God's plans", then i have to work hard to achieve that success. and the way i look at myself, started playing at 14, already good enough to beat most adults at my club, being told i have the ability, i have that inner drive, so im going to go for it. whatever happens is because God wants it to. and you know what else? no one can stop me... (except for my parents, cuz they have the cheque book :D). bottom line: no matter who tells me i cant do something, ill put my mind to it, and do it. and if i do become a pro, ill come post here for you ;)

    ah well, that was my big speech for the day. now off to the shower, bed, and up at 5 tomorrow morning for tennis practice... :(
     
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  7. tennis_nerd22

    tennis_nerd22 Hall of Fame

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    you still dont understand that even if you start late, if you have potential, its a matter of working many times harder than you would have had to if you had started early. doesnt mean you dont have a chance.

    after that statement, i dont think i ever want to see you discuss anything to do with "God" ever again. you obviously dont have a religion, which is fine by me, i dont care about that... but dont say there isnt a God, because there is. HE is the one who created US, HE is the one who created the universe, the stars, and everything that exists, HE is the one that created earth and life as we know it. its not as if we just randomly fell from the sky one day eh...

    btw, you know that the planets were formed during the Big Bang (though thats a theory), but all planets came from solids in space, dust, and gas? the star is a big ball of gas? that means that everything came from pre-exhisting material in space. and if there were naked humans in space, they wouldnt have survived, no oxygen (scientific view). so what your saying is when the earth and planets and galaxies were formed, 2 humans just randomly fell from the sky, had babies, and thats how life formed? or did they bloom from a flower? because if that is what you are saying, ill give you one thing... im absolutely speechless


    so tell me, if there is no God, no Creator, where did we all come from? where did the planets come from? where did everything we humans have ever discovered near us come from?

    btw, i dont mean to start a religious war thread out of a thread about coaching lessons... but i just cant believe someone would have the brain to say that man created God..
     
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  8. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    As am I. Please...please read a book about modern cosmology. Then consider following that up with a book on evolutionary biology. If you still want to believe in a god, that's fine...but at least have some notion of what the scientific theories you are attacking actually say.

    That having been said. If you want to be a professional tennis player, you absolutely need a good coach or possibly coaches. I think that point has been fairly well established in this thread already though.
     
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  9. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Well I guess I can say the same thing for you. Please please read the Bible, because in it you might find the soul behind the creation or the evolution you believe.

    If there is no God, what do we do with Christ? What do we do with his miracles? He claimed He was God?

    If there is no God, no life, no hope, why are we being civilized? If I have no one to answer to after death what does it matter how many laws I break? What does it matter how many people I kill. All of our lives are meaningless, empty, void, dark, lonely.

    IN THE END, IT IS ALL MEANINGLESS. A person with no god, is meaningless. A person who doesnt believe in God has no purpose - his only purpose is to survive.

    Even if dinasaurs can be proved it still does not deny God created it. It only further proves His creativity of which we are still learning about.

    Although I will agree that there is good science to further our knowledge about our world and universe so we can get rid of the modernistic thinking and behavior that has entered the church a long time ago, I also know that post-moderization is helping Christians to accept the science that IS provable and can be verified.

    But just like any religion you beleive in (science included) there will always be those that will perpetuate lies in order to promote their selfish cause.

    Science consistently shows order and systems that are complicatedly put together. Why wouldnt somone believe that something created it. Is that too much? Or is it pride that gets into the hearts of evolutionist to deny someone greater then themselves and someone they will be answering to?
     
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  10. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Guys grow up and end it, there is no point in this.

    Once a persons mind is made up in a situation like this it is set in stone.

    And not to mention this is not the place to discus it
     
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  11. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Grow up? What is wrong with what we are discussing? It may not be in the right forum but is this a "childish" issue? Hardly. Plus, a persons mind is not necessarily made up, if this was the case then you wouldn't see evolutionist convert to Christianity and vice versa.

    I will agree that this is not a forum for this discussion but threads do take a life on its own. Plus, coming from you, I could really care less what you think.
     
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  12. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    I never did understand this argument. Assuming that there is a "God" where did he come from? Was he/she/it always just there? What the athiest would say is that the universe is JUST THERE. Just like God is "just there" for the religious person.

    People tend to lose all rationality when it comes to the whole "God" issue. There is a reason why it's called "faith" you CANNOT argue for the existence of god. You just have to believe in the abscence of proof. You have to give Catholics some credit for getting this..

    There is a writer who recently wrote a book called the end of religion. Anyway I was watching him in an interview talk about athiesm. He gave a neat example of how ordinary people suspend their rational thought process and how we all know what it's like to be an athiest.

    He said that everyone in that room was Posiedon athiest. I mean you guys all know the Greek God Posiedon who ruled the seas. But none of us actually BELIEVES in him right now. But why?

    Well we all have various reasons. I mean I have studied greek mythology and they were all created to explain questions about the universe that the Greeks coudn't answer at that time. Zeus threw down lightning bolts and Poseidon made the waves and controlled the tides and so on. Now of course we "know better" and have learned the scientific reasons behind these events. That's my reasoning..

    And of course there are numerous other reasons to NOT believe in Poseidon. I am sure everyone here can think of their own. However when it comes to the Christian/Muslim/Hebrew "God" most people simply disregard that same logic by which they live their every day life. They start believing in things that they normally wouldn't.

    It's kind of fascintating - as obviously there is some deep seated psychological need to believe in something "greater" for alot of people. But strictly from a logical standpoint there is no real "evidence" for "God." What's even more bizarre is that people will fight to the death over competing 'stories" namely the Muslim/Hebrew/Christian versions of religion simply for the reason that this is what their PARENTS taught them.

    Of course from my perspective once you make the leap and believe in one tale or "religion" then what is to logically stop you from believing in ANY of them?

    Jesus is the son of God - because I have some book that told me so. But Mohammed is the one true prophet because a different book told me so. And Poseidon is the God of seas because another book has told me so. Once you go down this irrational path your left with a sea of chaos - and a great deal of strife has occured because of it.

    I am saddened when i see millions die because competing fairy tales.. I think the world would be much better off it they took a more skeptical view of religion. Most people don't even think about something as basic as why do we believe in this "bible" when their were hundreds of other relgious writings by other prophets and such that were dropped from it. Well of course the King picked and choosed some bits for his "bible" and now people take that as the word of God.

    Of course once you start looking at bible history you realize that there were 100's of competing bibles at one time and if you examine the bible more closely you seem striking simliarities to many of the mytholgical stories available at the time. And I guess people don't like this..

    Pete
     
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  13. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Read it...why did you assume that I hadn't?

    What do you do with all the other figures that supposedly worked miracles and claimed a divine origin?

    I find this concept highly disturbing. You mean to tell me that the only thing keeping you from a murderous rampage is the fear of punishment after death? That's the only thing holding you back? You have no respect for the lives of your fellow human beings beyond the negative consequences that taking them would have for you in the afterlife? What a twisted individual you must be...I'm so thankful that you have your religion to stop you from being a mass murderer.

    Why are we civilized? Because it is a mutually beneficial arrangement! Duh.

    A person that does not believe in a god does not necessarily have a meaningless life. They just aren't handed a meaning, aren't given a purpose. You have to find it for yourself. You have to decide what is important. You have to decide what you want your life to mean. And I could easily argue that existance itself is all the more meaningful to an atheist...because you only get one chance at it...it's finite...and after it is over, that's it. There's no eternal afterlife to sit around and chill with some god. You get one chance at this thing...you'd better make it count!

    I'm confused. I ask a guy to read about cosmology and evolutionary biology so that he can at least know something about the scientific theories that he is downright butchering...and you come back at me with even if dinosaurs can be proved? What?

    First off, you somehow assumed from the single statement I made that I am an atheist. That this assumption was correct doesn't excuse you from making it. Second, where exactly did I start arguing the point of the existance of a god? If you really want to start that argument with me, then fine...but why this reaction to my simply stating, "please read a book about modern cosmology. Then consider following that up with a book on evolutionary biology. If you still want to believe in a god, that's fine...but at least have some notion of what the scientific theories you are attacking actually say."?

    Did I make an argument anywhere that scientific theories have disproven the existance of a god? No, I didn't. They don't have to. They aren't trying to. That is not their purpose, and I never intimated that it was...so why the reflexive answer?

    You mean things like big bang cosmology and evolutionary biology? :mrgreen:

    Oh...science is a religion now? What an original argument. Please define religion. The only way for the definition to apply to science is to widen it so far that is loses practically all meaning.

    This statement also puts you about a step and a half away from the "international scientific conspiracy theory" whackjobs.

    Modern cosmology has consistently shown us that the universe is an extremely chaotic place, both on the order of the very large and infinitesimely small. In this chaos there are relatively small pockets of order. We happen to exist in one. This being our experience within our immediate surroundings we work on the assumption that the rest of the universe is similar. It appears that it isn't.

    As for why someone wouldn't believe that something created it...the question is why should someone believe that something created it. Am I to assume that something must have a creator unless it is proven otherwise? On what logical basis am I forced to make this assumption? You are merely putting forth the age old theist argument...god has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist? This is not logical. If I am to believe the statement, god exists, then that positive statement must be proven! It is not my responsibility to prove the negative.

    Again, I am left to wonder why a simple statement asking a person who clearly lacks scientific understanding to acquire some before he attacks and dismisses scientific theories garnered such a response.
     
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  14. tennis_nerd22

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    because of the stupid post you made obviously...
     
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  15. Brettolius

    Brettolius Professional

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    You should probably stop responding because it is obvious you are out of your league here and really aren't comprehending what is being said.
     
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  16. Brettolius

    Brettolius Professional

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    Awesome post! Very, very well said. I would like to hear one of the faithful address some of the issues that you've pointed out here rather than get all bent out of shape.
     
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  17. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Why do you assume it is an attack? So you are saying that I lack? Why can't you have an intelligent conversation about something deep? I did not attack only continued a conversation that is very deep. I can't help if you are immature to not handle hard questions.

    Maybe you assumed I was not well versed in the subject and would only be able to communicate with you on a typical shallow Christian level?

    Maybe you assumed that I never took courses on evolution, read books on evolutions, studied the religion of evolution, and never studied pre-moderism, modernism, and post-modernism?

    Hardly!

    I know well versed in understanding where religions, science, and evolution religions problem stem from. Both come from opposite sides of the ring for a reason and a reason that happened long ago. Both are riddled with deep modernistic viewpoints and false dycotomies.

    If you want go into the subjects, you will also have to know about history. If you want to get into the subject dude, go for it, but you will need to go deep, or back off, quit thinking it is an attack and discuss it. Both of us can learn from each other to further our current beliefs or come together.

    Further, at this point, and if you do want to discuss it without crying about things, we should take this offline, I can go as far as you want to go. If I don't know the answer, I have plenty of resources to draw from.

    Finally, a Godless world is a void world. There is no purpose. You live and you die. Period. There is no hope, it is a world that will end in death.

    If a person decides to commit suicide and there is no one to answer to for their life, why not let them? Why can't they just die? There is nothing else after death. It is void and meaningless.
     
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  18. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Tell me something. If we could find God, and he gave you a path to find Him, wouldn't you be excited to not only continue exploring His vast creation through science and know Him?

    Why are evolutionist so bitterly against God? Do you know what I am mean by an "EVOLUTIONIST"? It is one that believes the world has no plan and no purpose. It just happened. Everyday you explore science you discover the incredible intelligence that went into that creation.

    The more you prove this world, the more you prove something created it. It is too full of intelligence, order, and structure. There is exteme intelligence in this universe of which I am glad science continues to uncover. I believe God wants us to discover his vastness. It is awesome!

    So, why are the Jews still around? Why hasn't the turbulence of their entire history genecided them? This is just one thing out of a hundred we can go over.

    So if we come to a conclusion that something is holding the Jews and the nation Isreal together, can we assume it is something greater than us?

    If we can, then we can go out and gather the evidence that supports this right? We can come to conclusions based on the information we have right? Even science doesn't have all the answers but still has its projections and conclusions right? ;)

    I will say it once again, with no god and no creator, life is meaningless, we have no purpose except to live and then die. Survival of the fittess takes over, suicide increases, depression increases, people that need God have been told their is no God, yet creation screams otherwise!

    No God, no hope. We need something greater then ourselves to solve our problems. Man can not solve his sin.
     
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  19. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    All those poor fellows need a god to keep them from doing wrong things. All those poor fellows like Bungalo Bill need a god to give purpose to their live, to solve their problems. It`s just pathetic.

    Live is void and meaningless. Life has no purpose but dying. If someone wants to commit suicide, let him. Why should you stop him?
     
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  20. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    well if you believe in God there is a limit, if you dont there isn't...
    And the goals are very different believers has their ultimite goal that they can never fufill, to obey WHAT GOD has told them to, but that is the fuel for the believers.

    My theory of existence of God? is he gave us knowledge of right and wrong. That is fascinating to me, ever since as a little kid we know stealing is bad. We sub conciously know the right and wrong. Many people say sex , masturbation is natural for us, but God proclaimed to have sex after marriage, and masturbation is an adultery. Why do little kids shows negative attitude when someone says "sex" most likely kids reply with an "eww"...


    Wtf am i saying..im not good at writing well my point is God is good to know....badfadarw
     
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  21. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    Ha..you sound pathetic...most likely a person Like YOU needs GOD...
    So if your loved ones wants to suicide you will let em? You are crazy....You can allow your mommy to jump out of the window. have fun
     
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  22. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    Why is that crazy? Why? Tell me, if it is their will, why is that crazy?

    The feeling of right and wrong is culture. It is learned. You learn it from your birth on. Different cultures have different rights and wrongs.
     
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  23. tennis_nerd22

    tennis_nerd22 Hall of Fame

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    exactly. well said.

    jackson_vile is right once again, this thread is getting pointless. i mean there was point to it before, but now its way off scale, especially with comments like this:

    so i cant post about God because i dont have a religion or believe in God? is that what your saying? last i checked, i dont even know you, so i dont think you can say that. but hey if you want me to "get out of this league" i will, whatever

    im out of this thread, its way too out of hand, nickybol doesnt understand anything about God, but is saying that he doesnt exist even though we believe in him. the brettolius comes out of nowhere and starts bad mouthing me.

    anyways, thanks for the support BB :)
     
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  24. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    Which god? The god of Christianity? The god of Islam? The god of the Hindu? The Roman & Greek gods? The babylonian gods? The egyptian gods? The aztec gods? The mayan gods? The inuit gods?
     
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  25. Brettolius

    Brettolius Professional

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    No, that's not what I'm saying. In fact you are proving my point right here in your response. I'll say it again- you are not comprehending what is being said. Therefore you should probably stop responding if you aren't sure what people are saying.
     
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  26. tennis_nerd22

    tennis_nerd22 Hall of Fame

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    name one post i didnt understand and how i didnt understand it. i was in this thread a lot longer than you, especially when it was just related to lessons. until nickybol started saying how there is no God and stuff. now there's another "religion war"

    btw i found mordredSJT's post very stupid that BB assumed he hadnt read the bible, and mordred said BB wouldnt know, thus making a false claim. however, based on his post about how there is no God in his opinion, he obviously hasnt read the bible, cuz it would explain to him how life began, and why it began, and who made it how it is. i also find it stupid that someone can believe that humans were not formed by God. do you think that the planets were randomly formed and a human randomly appeared from gas? or did the human appear from the mud? how does that scientifically make sense to you? unless your an idiot. if you know anything about science, you'd know that the planets and sun were formed from materials in space (ie, gas, rock, ice, forces of heat and compression, etc.), and surprise surprise, there were NO HUMANS IN SPACE. THEY WOULD DIE WITHOUT OXYGEN.

    therefore, i think you should review your facts before telling others what to do, or where to post in forums, or what to post.
     
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  27. Brettolius

    Brettolius Professional

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    I'm not here to give you comprehension lessons. Good luck with the tennis career.
     
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  28. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, we can take this conversation somewhere else. We need to keep in mind that both sides have their insights and the discussion participants need to learn from each other even though hard questions will be asked. We are not trying to coerce, convince, trick, or persuade the other side to believe what one is saying. That has happened too much over the years when modernistic thought took over.

    It is not a discussion to prove someone wrong, it is a discussion to add awareness to what both parties see.
     
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  29. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Talking snakes, zombies, virgins giving birth, exploding arabs, flying chariots, gods caring about the skin on your pen is, oh my. Common sense indeed. :p
     
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  30. Dunlopkid

    Dunlopkid Guest


    Not really.

    I will answer your last sentence first. Their have been differences in moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. Think of what a totally different morality would be--imagine a country in which people were admired for running away from battle, or a man felt proud of doublecrossing all the people that had been the nices to him. There have been slight differences yes, but they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.

    Answer this: While I've said there are not HUGE differences in morality, aren't some moralities better than others? If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilised morality to savage morality. The moment you say that one set of moral idesas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard better than the other one. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real right, independent of what people think, and that some people's ideas get nearer to that real right than others.

    Obviously, this Real Morality couldn't have come from society (duh, reread the argument.) It has been implanted in the human being. Not chance. By God.
     
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  31. yoga

    yoga Rookie

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    #31
  32. Dunlopkid

    Dunlopkid Guest

    Thanks Yoga, for your sarcastic post. I really appreciated number 14.:p
     
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  33. Marat Safinator

    Marat Safinator Banned

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    I dont know if theres a god, so ill leave it at that.
     
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  34. Marat Safinator

    Marat Safinator Banned

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    for all you people arguing so strongly that god exists, prove it.
     
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  35. yoga

    yoga Rookie

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    u r welcome Dunlopkid, at least there is still tennis that we can talk about ;)
     
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  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Exploding rocks, no one knows the origin of the explosion, humans are just animals, frogs turning into monkeys, monkeys turning into humans, common sense indeed. :p

    So, we have opened the discussion from the things that are farfetched for both sides to contemplate by reasonable people.

    What course of conversation can cause both parties to see that quite possibly something (although we won't be able to prove either side) can potentially be taken in faith?

    Both sides require a faith jump or a faith bridge. For some the explosion that formed the earth is real. Yet, no one knows what caused the explosion. Some have faith in this and are taking a faith jump that it just happened out of nowhere and no intelligence was behind it.

    For others, God created the universe from their perspective that intelligence exists in the systems and creation around us.

    Whether seen or unseen, faith is required for both sides.
    • For faith to be faith, we must have a reason to believe. A reason does not have to be scientifically proven, it can also be proven through other disciplines for a person to project their faith.
    • Belief is an element of faith but not the whole.
    • Faith in something is believing in spite of the evidence.
    The point is, science has not proven that God does or doesn't exist. It is only science. Christians have no right to ignore hard evidence that would help them appreciate more of their world even though it may prove some previously believed traditions wrong.

    Case in point, during the pre-modern world, the "Church" was misusing scripture and ignoring the growing evidence that the earth revolved around the sun. Instead of examining the evidence and celebrating the new information - it was condemned and viewed as herisy.

    Traveling the path of an "us against them" is not the purpose of this conversation. Although I realize some hard questions will be asked, we all need to try and keep the emotion out of it, including me. We need to consider the possibilites on both sides and realize we can agree to disagree if both sides can't bridge the differences.

    I am of firm belief that God will not reveal Himself to someone through his brain. God is spirit and God is love, so from the heart God reveals Himself in a personal way to that person. A way that not even the person receiving the revelation can put into words.

    If I can do my best in showing people how I came to believe the Bible, without you thinking I am trying to coerce you into believing like me, then I hope you will allow me to illustrate. The evidence that changed my perspective of God is undeniable to me. There is too much for me to walk away from.

    I actually became a Christian later in my life when I had the intelligence and background to examine the evidence. I discovered enough evidence that convinced me that God truly is alive and He is working in all of our lives at this very moment.
     
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  37. metsjets

    metsjets Rookie

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    #37
  38. Dopke

    Dopke Semi-Pro

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    A large part of the basis of Christianity is faith, belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, and so to semi-satisfy you, there is no proof. But, I will say that for me atleast, I find it fascinating that I can believe in having a personal relationship with a God that, for the most part there is no PHYSICAL evidence of, yet, I still believe. And for that, I can only attribute to there being a God. What can drive me to spend time going to church, reading bible, praying, is beyond me. You say I'm crazy, and I guess in that point of view I am.

    And also, last time I checked, evolution is still only a theory.
     
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  39. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    No, not by god. By culture, and by human instinct. Implemented in brain. People use religion to say: "Hey, my values and my morality are right, and you are just a bunch of barbarians.!" Isn`t that the way millions of Africans were slaughtered, the way thousands of Aztecs were slaughtered, the way 6 million jew were killed?

    By the way, did you know religion comes from the brain? For example, almost-dead-experiences. When you electrostimulate a certain part of the brain, you have that experience, just like your almost-death. Also you can look at some parts of someones brain and say if the person is very religious or not. Also some say the visions prophets like Muhammed, Jesus and Paul had were in fact signs of an eppileptic disease.
     
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  40. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    You don`t know what a theory is. A theory is something completely different than a religion. It has been researched, it has been empirically researched. It`s like the theory of gravity. Who says gravity doesn`t exist?
     
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  41. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    The Christian church actually stopped science for 1000 years during the middle ages. The church controlled science, there was only church-based science. In reality, scientists had been knowing the earth was round-shaped since more than a thousand years, since the Greek Ionic Philosophers.

    They indeed misused scripture. They prosecuted others Christians. Ever heard about Arianism? It`s a kind of Christianity where there is not trinity, but where the father is the highest, then comes the son, and then comes the holy spirit. They didn`t believe Jesus was the son of god, but just a prophet.

    Arianism was the dominating christian doctrine at that time (about 300 AD). Almost all germanic tribes invading the Roman empire were arianists. In 312 AD Emperror Constantine and his Christian friends just banned the Arianists, and made their own doctrine, the doctrine we know nowadays.
     
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  42. Dopke

    Dopke Semi-Pro

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    I'm not going to argue with you about my knowledge of what theory is, because me saying that I do won't make a difference.

    And I was using the more general usage of 'theory,' like speculation, unproven, etc.
     
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  43. nickybol

    nickybol Semi-Pro

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    But the more general usage does not apply to the evolution theory. That is a scientific theory.
     
    #43
  44. Dopke

    Dopke Semi-Pro

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    Okay, thanks for the help on my english?
     
    #44
  45. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    He's right, though. Evolution is a theory in the scientific sense, one of the most successful in the history of science, and if you were to ask people like Dawkins, he would say for all intents and purposes, it's a fact. Gravity is a theory, too. So is general relativity. Theory in science doesn't mean unproven. In fact, everything in science can be considered something that simply hasn't been disproven yet.
     
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  46. Dunlopkid

    Dunlopkid Guest


    Yep:D
     
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  47. Dunlopkid

    Dunlopkid Guest

     
    #47
  48. scez

    scez Semi-Pro

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    I havnt read it all, but I saw one part where bungalo said if their is no God, why dont we just break all the laws because what is the meaning of life. But there are a lot of different believes that allow you to believe in no God, but to still have morals. This year in grade 12 English we did an unit on existentialism which states that their is no superior being, when we die it is the end. Therefore all of our actions are meaningless so it is upon ourself to add meaning to our lives by following our own inner moral codes and not following prey to quietism.

    I personally do not exactly believe all the stories that religion says, but I believe in the morals they teach you, like family. But it is so frustrating that religion has caused so many wars and unneeded deaths, in a way religion will stop there being any complete peace in the world.
     
    #48
  49. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    double post
     
    #49
  50. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    #50

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