The "God" Argument ... (Moved from another thread)

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bungalo Bill, Jul 17, 2006.

  1. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    Sure. Haven't you ever KILLED some time? I have, and see others doing it all the time. And in basketball or other clock-based sports, haven't you heard the expression, "Kill the clock"? And these games end when "Time Expires"-hey, that sure sounds like DYING to me...if it walks like a duck...

    C'mon, 35ft6...these answers are starring you straight in the face!
     
  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    I think you are missing something and if that is what you read into what I posted - oh well.

    I am not saying that the Israeli Army is weak or unable to help themselves, quite the contrary is true. But when an army no matter how good it becomes, is confronted by an enemy much greater, the odds aren't good that they will win. It is HOW they won that is interesting. My position is that the Bible's prophesy is correct in that God would also come to their aid. I am in no way implying that they lack strength. They simply have God on their side and God is trying to show them that.

    The other portion to this that I have not mentioned is the upcoming war with Israel. The Bible describes a coalition of nations led by countries in the area of Russia to sweep the land and go after Israel. The world will be in caos and ALL nations will not be able to and not want to help Israel- that also means the US. Israel will be isolated.

    Shortly before this, Israel will believe it is finally living in peace with the world. I don't care how good Israel's army is, when this massive army mobilizes, only God will be able to help defeat this army. It is a promise God made and He will keep it. "No man will destroy Israel".

    I dont make the stories, I just follow the events. :)

    It is called the Six Day MIRACLE War for a reason, it is the MIRACLE I consider against prophecy. You may want to read up on it first. ;)
     
  3. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    TALKING SNAKES....


    Yet another reason Christians believe God is the ultimate author of the Bible is the predictive prophecies in the Bible. This aspect is unique to the world's religions because if one predicts something will happen and it does not, they are proven to be phony. The Bible is literally filled with detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled with 100% accuracy. Here is a list of 85 Messianic prophecies (click here for a more complete list) along with their fulfillment through the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus:

    # Prophetic Scripture Subject Fulfilled
    1 Genesis 3:15 seed of a woman Galatians 4:4
    2 Genesis 12:3, Genesis 22:18 descendant of Abraham Matthew 1:1, Acts 3:25
    3 Genesis 17:19, Genesis 21:12 descendant of Isaac Luke 3:34, Luke 3:23-24
    4 Genesis 28:14, Numbers 24:17 descendant of Jacob Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:23-24
    5 Genesis 49:10 from the tribe of Judah Luke 3:23-24, Luke 3:33
    6 Isaiah 9:6, 11:1-5, Jeremiah 23:5-6 descendant of David Matthew 1:1, Luke 3:23-24
    7 Isaiah 11:1 descendant of Jesse Luke 3:23-24
    8 Ezekiel 37:24 will shepherd His people Matthew 2:6
    9 Isaiah 9:7 heir to the throne of David Luke 1:32-33
    10 Micah 5:2 His pre-existence Colossians 1:17
    11 Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:1 eternal existence John 8:58, 11, 14, Ephesians 1:3-14, Colossians 1:15-19
    12 Psalms 45:6-7, Psalms 102:25-27 anointed and eternal Hebrews 1:8-12
    13 Psalms 110:1 called Lord Matthew 22:43-45
    14 Isaiah 33:22 judge John 5:30
    15 Psalms 2:6 king Matthew 27:37
    16 Micah 5:2 born in Bethlehem Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:4-5, 7
    17 Daniel 9:25 time for His birth Matthew 2:1, 16, 19, Luke 2:1-2
    18 Isaiah 7:14 to be born of a virgin Matthew 1:18, 24, 25, Luke 1:26-27, 30-31
    19 Psalms 72:9 worshipped by shepherds Luke 2:8-15
    20 Psalms 72:10 honored by great kings Matthew 2:1-11
    21 Jeremiah 31:15 slaughter of children Matthew 2:16-18
    22 Hosea 11:1 flight to Egypt Matthew 2:14-15
    23 Isaiah 40:3-5 the way prepared Matthew 3:1,2, Luke 3:3-6
    24 Malachi 3:1 preceded by a forerunner Luke 7:24, 27
    25 Malachi 4:5-6 preceded by Elijah Matthew 11:13-14
    26 Psalms 2:7, Proverbs 30:4 declared the Son of God Matthew 3:17, Luke 1:32
    27 Isaiah 9:5-6, Jeremiah 23:5-6 God's name applied to Him Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:9-11
    28 Isaiah 11:2, 61:1, Psalms 45:8 anointment of Holy Spirit Matthew 3:16, 17, John 3:34, Acts 10:38
    29 Isaiah 9:1-2 Galilean ministry Matthew 4:13-16
    30 Psalms 78:2-4 speaks in parables Matthew 13:34-35
    31 Isaiah 56:7, Jeremiah 7:11 temple becomes a house of merchandise instead of prayer Matthew 21:13
    32 Psalms 69:9 zeal of Jews for the temple instead of God John 2:17
    33 Deuteronomy 18:15, 18 a prophet Matthew 21:11, Acts 3:20, 22
    34 Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 35:5-6 blind, deaf, and lame are healed by the Messiah Luke 7:22, Matthew 9:35, 11:3-5
    35 Isaiah 40:11, 42:2-3, Isaiah 53:7 Messiah will be meek and mild Matthew 12:18-20, Matthew 11:29, Hebrews 4:15
    36 Isaiah 53:9 Be sinless and without guile 1 Peter 2:22
    37 Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 49:1 will minister to Gentiles Matthew 12:18-21Luke 2:32
    38 Isaiah 61:1-2 to bind up the brokenhearted Luke 4:18-19
    39 Isaiah 53:12, Isaiah 59:16 to intercede for the people Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25
    40 Isaiah 53:3, 8:14, 28:16, 63:3, Psalms 69:6, 118:22 rejected by His own people, the Jews John 1:11, 7:5,48, Luke 23:18, Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:6-8
    41 Psalms 118:22 Be rejected by the Jewish leadership Matthew 21:42, John 7:48
    42 Psalms 2:1-2 plotted against by Jews and Gentiles alike Acts 4:27
    43 Psalms 110:4 priest after the order of Melchizedek Hebrews 5:5-6
    44 Zechariah 9:9 enter Jerusalem on donkey Mark 11:7, 9, 11, Luke 19:35-37
    45 Haggai 2:7-9, Malachi 3:1 entered the temple with authority Matthew 21:12, Luke 2:27-38
    46 Psalms 8:2 adored by infants Matthew 21:15-16
    47 Isaiah 53:1 not believed John 12:37-38
    48 Zechariah 13:7 sheep of the Shepherd scattered Matthew 26:31, Mark 14:50
    49 Psalms 41:9, 55:13-15 betrayed by a close friend Matthew 10:4, Luke 22:47-48
    50 Zechariah 11:12 betrayed for thirty pieces of silver Matthew 26:14-15
    51 Zechariah 11:13 betrayal money used to buy Potter's field Matthew 27:6-7
    52 Psalms 35:11 accused by false witnesses Mark 14:57-58
    53 Isaiah 53:7 silent to accusations Matthew 27:12, Mark 15:4-5
    54 Isaiah 50:6 spat on Matthew 26:67, 27:30
    55 Isaiah 50:6 beaten Matthew 26:67, 27:26, 30
    56 Micah 4:14 struck on cheek Matthew 27:30
    57 Isaiah 49:7, Psalms 35:19, Psalms 69:4 hated without reason John 7:48, 15:24-25
    58 Isaiah 53:5 wounded and bruised Matthew 27:26
    59 Isaiah 53:5 vicarious sacrifice John 1:29, , 3:16, Romans 5:6, 8
    60 Daniel 9:24-26 cut off, but not for Himself Matthew 2:1, Luke 3:1, 23
    61 Isaiah 53:12 crucified with malefactors Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28
    62 Zechariah 12:10, Psalms 22:16 pierced through hands and feet Luke 23:33, John 20:25-27
    63 Psalms 22:7-8 sneered and mocked Matthew 27:31, Luke 23:35
    64 Psalms 109:24, 25 fell under the cross Luke 23:26
    65 Psalms 69:9 was reproached Romans 15:3
    66 Psalms 38:11 friends stood afar off Luke 23:49
    67 Psalm 109:25 people shook their heads Matthew 27:39
    68 Psalms 22:17 stared upon Luke 23:35
    69 Psalms 22:16, 69:21 given vinegar for His thirst Matthew 27:34, John 19:28-29
    70 Psalms 109:4, Isaiah 53:12 prayer for His enemies Luke 23:34
    71 Psalms 22:17-18 soldiers gambled for His clothing Matthew 27:35-36, John 19:23, 24
    72 Psalms 22:1 forsaken by God Matthew 27:46
    73 Psalms 31:5 committed Himself to God Luke 23:46
    74 Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20 no bones broken John 19:32, 33, 36
    75 Psalm 22:14 heart broken John 19:34
    76 Zechariah 12:10 His side pierced John 19:34
    77 Amos 8:9 darkness over the land Matthew 27:45
    78 Isaiah 53:9 buried with the rich Matthew 27:57-60
    79 Psalms 3:5, 16:10, 49:15 to be resurrected Mark 16:6-7, Acts 2:31
    80 Isaiah 44:3, Joel 2:28 sent the Holy Spirit John 20:22, Acts 2:16-17
    81 Isaiah 55:3-4, Jeremiah 31:31 establishes a new covenant Matthew 26:28, Luke 22:20, Hebrews 8:6-10
    82 Psalms 68:18, Psalms 110:1 His ascension to God's right hand Mark 16:19, Acts 1:9, 1 Corinthians 15:4, Ephesians 4:8, Hebrews 1:3
    83 Psalms 29:11, Micah 4:3 peace proclaimed by disciples Luke 2:14, John 14:27, Acts 10:36
    84 Isaiah 60:3 "Light" to Gentiles Acts 13:47,48
    85 Isaiah 11:10, 42:1, 49:1-12 the Gentiles will seek the Messiah Romans 11:25, 15:10

    Although some of these prophecies are vague and could have been deliberately fulfilled, many are very specific: 16. Place of birth (Micah 5:2). 17. Date of birth (Daniel 9:25). 18. Manner of birth (Isaiah 7:14). 62. Manner of death (Zechariah 12:10; Psalm 22:16 prophesied before the invention of crucifixion). 76. Piercing in side (Zechariah 12:10). 78. Burial (Isaiah 53:9).

    The Bible made several prophecies of the complete destruction of cities. Many of the cities it said would be rebuilt and several it claimed would never be rebuilt - The Bible is 100% accurate in both categories as archeology shows. One amazing example is the city of Tyre. Ezekiel 26:3-5,7,12,14 and 16 (17) predict:

    Nebuchadnezzar will take the city.
    Other nations will participate in the fulfillment.
    The city is to be made flat like the top of a rock.
    It is to become a place for spreading nets.
    Its stones and timber are to be laid in the sea.
    The old city of Tyre will never be rebuilt.
    History records that Nebuchadnezzar took the city but the people escaped out to an island. Later Alexander the Great took the Island off the coast by taking the old cities rubble and throwing it into the sea making a land-bridge (this caused the old city to look flat like a rock due to the scraping of the material). The old city is now a place for fisherman but no city has been planted there even though there is an excellent water supply to support a major city.

    Another interesting aspect of Biblical prophecy is the New Testament prophecies concerning the last days. John, Zechariah and others had prophecies and visions of the future which they attempted to describe with the words available to them at that time. The amazing thing is how accurate the prophecies are of the way the world is today. There was no way they could have known two thousand years ago what the conditions would be like today. For example, in Revelation 9:13-19 (18) John describes an army of two hundred million soldiers that will cross the Euphrates river from the east. At that time there weren't even two hundred million people on the earth let alone in one army. Today China boasts of an army of two hundred million soldiers. John describes this army as riding on horses with breastplates and of which out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. They had power in their tails and were used to kill a third of mankind. It sounds like John is describing modern day warfare with tanks. He called them horses because that was the only mode of transportation then.

    The Six Day War was an incredible victory for Israel against the entire Arab world because all the odds were against them. How can we account for Israel's existence? How can we account for the widespread hatred toward Israel throughout history unless there is a supernatural evil controlling their opposition? The survival of Israel and the fact that they are back in their homeland after 1900 years should at least cause us to consider the claims of the Bible.
     
  4. JLBAYERR

    JLBAYERR Rookie

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    Bill, your my hero
     
  5. Phil

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    Bill - Prophecies are like SCUD missiles...if enough are launched, sooner or later, one is going to hit. How many of the prophecies have NOT come to pass? Plenty, I'll wager.

    Again, you don't have the frame of reference to discuss military history, so for you, chalking up the results to God are all that you need. Plenty of armies, facing incredible odds, have defeated their enemies. Think Battle Of Agincourt, in which 5,000 British soldiers destroyed an army of 30,000 French knights-IN FRANCE...away from supply lines, in enemy territory. Now, the British, who at that time were Catholic, ALSO said that they won because God ordained it-like you, they believed in miracles instead of looking at the skill and tactics of their own armies.

    So, Israel isn't the only country to have achieved "miraculous" victories. If you look at both sides' militaries, there's NO miracle about it...one side was simply much better than the other-better tactics, leadership, equipment, etc.

    All you did was cut and paste a bunch of scripture references and some hokum...that does not prove your case and in fact, indicates to me that you're just not capable of discussing Mideast politics or history, other than to say "It's God's will". I can't discuss the subject (any longer) with someone who has no knowledge of the events, but can only point to FAITH. Such a person, of course, cannot EVER be wrong...'cause it's his FAITH that's guiding his words..."facts", "figures", "reality"...those are concepts that people of your ilk have no use for.

    Oh, BTW, if you think, if the "time" comes, that Israel is going to give up its land to a bunch of Born Again whackos...then you are even more deluded than I thought possible. They'll put a missile up your arse just as surely as they've done to everyone else that's tried to destroy them.
     
  6. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Sorry to burst your bubble...but Einstein was quite clear in his reasoning behind the cosmological constant, and it had nothing to do with any gods. The accepted cosmological model at the time was that of a static universe. That had been the state of affairs in cosmology for going on a few centuries. When Einstein saw that his equations could result in an expanding universe, he added the cosmological constant in order to conform to the prevailing model of the time. It was almost a decade later before two different people, following up on Einstein's work, took the step that Einstein refused to, solved his equations, and hypothesized that the universe was indeed expanding. A hypothesis which has been supported by empirical evidence since that time.

    You've gone down this whole amazing design demands an intelligence/creator already. I've already asked, would you care to actually explain why this is so? Or should I just accept it because you've said it over and over again...

    The whole Einstein angle doesn't really help here. Besides the fact that the article you posted totally ignored what Einstein actually said was his reasoning behind the cosmological constant and made up its own reason...the simple fact that Einstein believed something lends it no extra weight. Appeals to authority do not impress me. Einstein was a great scientist, and an extremely interesting person (I've read most of what he has written scientifically and philosophically). However, he had a very difficult time letting go of certain philosophical assumptions about the world. He never really accepted quantum mechanics because he did not like the philosophical implications of the randomness and indeterminancy. He couldn't let go of his beautiful, orderly universe...even though the evidence pointed another way.
     
  7. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    time does not exist, it is only a measurment for humans to understand the world they are in, IE a mile, a mile does not exist, it is not fact, it is not something, rather it is just a human word used to describe something, like the word "The"

    All things in the univers are guaranteed to end.
     
  8. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    I have missed nothing, as that was not part of the point, the point was the comonality that all things have, they have a beginning and and end to put it more simple for you.

    Thus things are not complicated in nature, yet the human mind makes things complicated far beyoned what is in reality.


    IE the life of a star


    Life is a great thing, that anyone in a healthy state of mind would never give up
     
  9. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Dieing and living are nothing more than descriptive words, better words would have been begining and ending.
     
  10. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry to burst yours! I know it must be hard to take that a scientist considered this universe desgined by something greater then ourselves.

    What Einstein saw was PURPOSE! He saw DESIGN! He saw INTELLIGENCE!

    Whether he wants to believe in the Christian God is up to him, but he did see design!

    Again, this is not to prove anything, it is to simply to show why a person would have faith in something. I have shown that there is enough evidence for someone to consider God.

    Also, you are dead wrong about Einstein. The science part is not important to me, it was his conclusion that something indeed created the universe. ;)

    This means it isn't stupid or ridiculous for someone to believe something created this universe! It also means an intelligent person would consider his reasoning faulty if he only considered this world was formed with no purpose and no plan. :)

    There are more things that prove God exists then proves he doesn't exist. There is too much design and complexity to even try.
     
  11. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Morality is born out of necessity, you see the goal of life is to survive long enough to pass on your genes, now there is much more to it than that but this is to make is simple


    You see many animal packs, groups, civiliations have morals as well.

    The question is why?

    But first we have to ask ourself why they comun, that is to live with and amongst one another.

    The reason like many other is for survival, you see a comunity of animals has a better chance a servival, due to being able to specialize, more ears, eyes, ect ect ect.

    Now Why do they have morals, a certain code of what is tollerated and not.

    The reason is that they can't live amongst one another unless there is peace and order, with out it they have an ever less chance of servival than alone.

    Thus the more coperative every animal is the better they live, thus the higher and longer survival rate.


    That is why we have morals, and that is why we build civilizations.


    Why all civilizations belive in a god of some sort is a whole different subject.
     
  12. pinky42

    pinky42 Rookie

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    Which Biblical position? There's at least two. One where a day is 24 hours and everything actually happens in a week and one where a "day" is some inderterminate amount of time and everything happens in as long as deemed necessary.

    Why do you think the premise should be granted in the first place? You've skipped step 1 (Is there an all-powerful God?) and went straight to step 2 (If there is an all-powerful God, why can't he do whatever he wants?)

    Ultimately, there can never be proof for the existence of an all-powerful entity. It can always be someone who just happens to be more advanced than we are.
     
  13. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    I am not sure the point that BB is trying to make here, as amazing Albert did not believe in a supernatural god.

    You see many many great minds believe in some sort of a higher presence, yet not the ones we read about in books.


    Many of them believe that the universe itself is god, that the universe itself has a higher intellegence that we are already a part of, but we simply can't percive due to our senses, how wer percive the world with them, and our active minds.


    Every tiny fabric of space comunicates with one another, in strings, that is where string theory comes into play.
     
  14. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Ummm...sorry dude, but your example of a mile doesn't really jive. A mile is a measurement of distance. A second is a measurement of time. Time and distance are real physical quantities.
     
  15. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    This is where every thing become so difficult to debate, as the book to some is as is word for word, and to others as they inturprit, and then you have others that believe that there is a god, ect but the book is mostly made of stories.


    So there is no way to debate something like that, you have debate what someone feels or believes, as to many of these people the beliefe is a feeling they have.

    So how do you tell someone they don't feel happy or sad when that is how they feel?

    You can't, so there is no point.
     
  16. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    ...gods caring about the skin on your pen is...oh my...

    The Bible's Uniqueness and Unity


    The next proof is the Bible's uniqueness and unity. The Bible was written by over 40 authors who came from just about every walk of life conceivable, including fisherman, kings, a butler, priests, and a tax collector. The 66 books of the Bible were written over a 1,500 year span in three languages on three continents with one theme and no contradictions. C.J. Sharp captures this miracle well:

    "If a fragment of stone were found in Italy, another in Asia Minor, another in Greece, another in Egypt, and on and on until sixty-six fragments had been found, and if when put together they fitted perfectly together, making a perfect statue of Venus de Milo, there is not an artist or scientist but would arrive immediately at the conclusion that there was originally a sculptor who conceived and carved the statue. The very lines and perfections would probably determine which of the great ancient artists carved the statue. Not only the unity of the Scriptures, but their lines of perfection, suggest One far above any human as the real author. That could be no one but God (16)."
    Back
     
  17. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    Ey guys ehhem..the debate is getting hott here but can you go visit my poll im very desperate!

    and how did my "lesson helpful or not" became "does god exist or not" argument?
     
  18. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Time is not sorry, here you go, with debate, I will give you more if you want.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3006307

    http://d0server1.fnal.gov/users/gll/public/edpublic.htm

    http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-23275.html

    http://ygraine.membrane.com/enterhtml/live/Time/luketime.html


    Time is a measure of motion, specifically that of the entity relative to its context. Being relative, entity and context are going in opposite directions. Consider a clock; From the perspective of the hands, it is the face going counterclockwise. From the perspective of the wave, the water is going the opposite direction.

    The universe is an absolute, but separate out one observer and the entire universe is relative to it, so if the observer is going one direction, than its context is going in the opposite direction. We think of time as proceeding in one direction, but which is first, past, or future? To the observer, past events proceed future ones, but the events are first in the future, then in the past.

    The entity goes from beginning to end, but process goes toward beginnings, shedding the old like a shell. Individuals go from birth to death, but the process of life goes toward the next generation, shedding the old like dead skin. The product on a factory line goes from initiation to completion, but the future of the factory isn't with the finished product, but those to be built. Just like food going through the body and a factory turning materials into product, what really matters is the energy being radiated, whether calories or wages and profits, propelling the entity through context.

    Past and future are a product of subjective perspective. Objectively there is only what exists. (Potentially this would apply to the spiritual essence as well. Life is an organism of the present.) So process and entity are a matter of perspective. Any entity is part of a larger process. Process can only be defined in terms of its entities

    Past is the closed set of what is ordered. Subject to entropy it still loses energy. The present is the open set, that which is ordered, but still absorbing energy. The future is the chaos of random energy. As in complexity theory; Past/order defines energy/future, while future/energy motivates past/order.

    Reality is energy and information. Objective reality is the energy and subjective reality is information. As the amount of energy remains the same, old information is erased as new is recorded, so the thread of time is being woven out of strands pulled from the past.
     
  19. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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  20. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL

    The atheist believe God should not be considered. He does not exist. 35ft suggested that if a person believed in talking snakes, etc., he must be a lunatic or completely out there.

    The point to all of this is to get us all to talk rationally and consider each sides validity. So that we can learn from each other and may discover things we had questions on but had no answers.

    No one will have all the answers, but all people need to respect that evolution does have information we need to know, just as the Bible does or the people who believe in God.

    It is stupd to be a scientist and close out other possibilites even if it can't be boiled down to a formula. It is equally stupid for a Christian or a God fearing person to discard what science finds to further our knowledge of our universe.

    Each have herisy and each have their extremist. But each has proof and evidence to support their findings. I believe putting together the findings makes the information stronger.
     
  21. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Notice that the link you gave to physicsforums appears to be a lively debate about whether or not time is the fourth dimension. EDIT Two of the other links you posted explicitly refer to time as a dimension...

    Special and general relativity identify time as a fourth dimension. All the different versions of string theory also count time as a dimension. Until I have a good reason not to accept this interpretation, I'm going to have to go with it...because it works.
     
  22. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Nice blanket statement about atheists. I'd like to point out that I, an atheist, am constantly considering and reconsidering the possible existance of a god as new information becomes available. I have yet to come across a reason to believe...therefore, I do not.
     
  23. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    EINSTEIN

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein#Religious_views

    Religious views
    Einstein was an Honorary Associate of the Rationalist Press Association beginning in 1934, and was an admirer of Ethical Culture. He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York.

    Quotes on his religious Views

    My first religious training of any kind was in the Catholic catechism.
    and:

    I came - though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents - to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve."

    I do not think that it is necessarily the case that science and religion are natural opposites. In fact, I think that there is a very close connection between the two. Further, I think that science without religion is lame and, conversely, that religion without science is blind. Both are important and should work hand-in-hand.

    A Jew who sheds his faith along the way, or who even picks up a different one, is still a Jew.

    As an adult, he called his religion a "cosmic religious sense".

    In The World As I See It he wrote:

    You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man.

    For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.

    But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.

    In response to the telegrammed question of New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in 1929: "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words." Einstein replied "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." Note that Einstein replied in only 25 (German) words. Spinoza was a pantheist.

    Scientific philosophy
    In this respect, Einstein had more in common with "classical" physicists. He rejected the idea of the universe being fundamentally probabilistic, and believed that the Universe was mechanistic and deterministic - his ongoing arguments with Heisenberg and Bohr are testament to this. Although comfortable with probability, his reasoning was that underlying these phenomena was an essentially deterministic solution.

    Einstein wrote:

    But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past.
    and:

    People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.
    Consequently, he felt physical processes determined absolutely everything, including man's desires, see Physicalism. For example, he said:

    I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words: “Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills ” accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of freedom of will preserves me from taking too seriously myself and my fellow men as acting and deciding individuals and from losing my temper." Einstein believed true theorists are sober-minded metaphysicists, saying:

    I believe that every true theorist is a kind of tamed metaphysicist, no matter how pure a 'positivist' he may fancy himself. The metaphysicist believes that the logically simple is also the real. The tamed metaphysicist believes that not all that is logically simple is embodied in experienced reality, but that the totality of all sensory experience can be 'comprehended' on the basis of a conceptual system built on premises of great simplicity."
     
  24. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    well god has given you great intelligence well said!
    thats what i exactly wanted to write. But my with my brain my max SAT score is 1700 :)
     
  25. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    What exactly was the point of that Bungalo Bill...if I may ask?

    Incidentally, regarding the above...Einstein was proven wrong. He spent the second half of his life looking for a grand unified theory that would prove out his idea of underlying determinism. He never solved the problem. Meanwhile, the copenhagen interpretation has rolled along. Bell's Inequality pretty much sealed that deal...
     
  26. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Well it is a nice blanket statement and a true one at that whether you take it personally or not. Can we assume that you also make a blanket statement about Christians? That we are full of it? Can we? Often the atheist calls a Christian hypocritical, can we say the same about you?

    It sounds like with all the evidence I am placing in front of you, you simply want to close your eyes to it. Is that scientific? Or your religion.

    You are dead wrong about Einstein's position. And I just proved it. Even the encyclopedia says it is true regarding Einsteins belief - so I can also assume you are not well versed in Einsteins theories.

    When you are ready to accept that indeed it is logical to consider God creating this universe - I will stop.

    But for now, you have implied that religion is a cruch, full of nonsense, and full of unscientifically proven myths and fables, on the contrary you are not correct.
     
  27. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    i hope this debate doesnt create a World War III between Talk Tennis brothers....
     
  28. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    What is my point? You haven't read?
     
  29. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, it won't. I won't take it that far. Now, tennis stuff maybe. :)

    This is stuff that is deeply personal and I repsect those that do not believe in God. One of my points is to show how irrational it is for those to isolate history, show only the bad side of what people have done in religion (including Christianity), and label everyone the same and not even consider the evidence for a creator because of it.

    Or a person that was raised by an abusive father who now views God in the same way because a few misguided people communicated God in this fashion.

    Just like tennis, one must seperate the crap from the truth.
     
  30. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Where have I said anything of the sort?

    I've seen everything you have posted before. I am still unconvinced.

    Dead wrong about what exactly? The only thing I really disputed was what the article recounted as Einstein's reasoning for the cosmological constant. I stated the reasoning that Einstein himself gave for his inclusion of the cosmological constant.

    I know Einstein was a deist that believed in a deterministic universe. I never disputed that. I merely pointed out that with regards to determinism...he is demonstratably wrong.

    I have considered it. It is logical to consider it. I have found the evidence in favor of a god wanting.

    Show me where I have stated these things.
     
  31. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    The final of ROlland GArrros
    is

    Bungalo Bill Vs. MordredSJT
    And Bb is winning by 2 sets
    stay tuned.....
     
  32. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Oh it will, just watch:rolleyes:
     
  33. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Really how did you come to that conclusion?:confused:
     
  34. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    its not over yet he might make a "come back"
     
  35. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Because someone can't grow up and is far far to arrogant to consider such a thing:mrgreen:
     
  36. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    BB is a good guy at heart, the thing is he has such a big heart, I mean this seriously no BS.


    Now on to what was said here, I am not sure how you have a rational debate when we are talking about things IE talking snakes ect that defies all logic and everything that we base our day to day lives on?


    You have though taken a very fair stance in "this post", so good for you, I respect that.

    And I think you are right that the answer will be somewhere inthe middle.

    But IMO nothing to debate here.
     
  37. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    i think its really good debate....I learned alot from this...
     
  38. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    It's your post so you're the boss, as long as you had fun and enjoyed it, but I think this thread is going to get much much longer:mrgreen:
     
  39. dannyjjang

    dannyjjang Semi-Pro

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    HEy we are making it longer! all the way to pag 2000
     
  40. D-man

    D-man Banned

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  41. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks!
     
  42. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    There is no need to get offensive about Einstein. The truth is right here about who he is and what he believed. My point is the same as his:

    Further, I think that science without religion is lame and, conversely, that religion without science is blind. Both are important and should work hand-in-hand.

    My other point was that whether you want to realize it or not, the Bible offers a choice and a good one at that to the alternative that there is no God. There is good reason to open the Bible and see what it says. Many good scientists with this much evidence would consider to do so.

    Although, you may not believe in a God, my point was not to change your view of that. That is personal to you and only you can make that decision.

    The Bible has plenty of evidence to hold its own and there is good reason why people come to believe in it and put their faith in it.
     
  43. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Not sure where I was getting offensive. I thought I was being quite matter of fact. Again, I am quite familiar with all of Einstein's work, his life, and his writings. I know every quote that you have posted by heart. That doesn't change the facts that Einstein introduced the cosmological constant because he wanted to conform to the prevailing model of a static universe, and that he was wrong with regards to determinism.

    Why does it matter that Einstein believed something? All of this is just an appeal to authority by you.

    Once again I will tell you...I've read the bible.
     
  44. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Once again, the Bible can be a viable source for excellent information to expand on someone's world view. It is scientifically proven and still being proven, just as your religion is.

    Sounds like to me the discussion ended. Thanks for interacting!
     
  45. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    This is it for me right here Bungalo Bill...two things...

    First, you do not have to disprove something in order to rightly conclude that you should not believe it. Besides which it is impossible to prove a universal negative!

    A quick exercise. Prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. If you can't, by your standards you must believe in Him.

    http://www.venganza.org/

    Second, you keep talking about all this design and complexity...but when I ask you to show it to me, when I ask for an example, when I ask you to expound and tell me how this all proves that there must be a god...I get no response.
     
  46. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Religion: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

    Atheism: The lack of a belief in a deity.

    I lack a religion. Try to pay attention to the language we've all agreed on :)
     
  47. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Haha, an intelligent man such as yourself should also realize atheism is a religion.

    Taking your "basic example"

    Atheism/Religion: Not a belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a leader or theories. :)

    No matter how you slice it - every one has a God and a religion. You beleive in something, some system, some idea - it is your god and yours is man made - it is an institution. All systems require faith. You place yours in man, I place mine in the God of the Bible.

    If you truly read the Bible, you would be able to see that Jesus was also against religion.

    Numerous times Jesus sought a relationship, not a religion. In fact, it was a belief system that condemned Him. Religion is not what God is seeking - that is man's attempt to reach God. God is seeking a relationship and through Jesus Christ (my belief) God is attempting to reach man.

    The other thing is, you can come up with all the institutionalizing words you wish to come up with and you still will not be able to disprove the Bible. It stands on its own.
     
  48. pinky42

    pinky42 Rookie

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    Indeed, as can the Talmud, Koran, and Poor Richard's Almanac.

    No. Nothing supernatural can be proven by science. That goes againt its very definition. Well, I hear some school districts occasionally try to redefine it for political reasons. That seems kind of silly. Why not redefine pi to 3 while they're at it?
     
  49. MordredSJT

    MordredSJT Rookie

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    Sorry...not an acceptable definition of atheism. Atheism is not a system of beliefs. It does not worship anything. It is not based on the teachings of any leader or theory. It is quite simply the lack of a belief in a god. That is all that it is.

    Wow. This is such a great ability that you have...you know, climbing inside my head and being able to tell me exactly what I believe. It's like magic.

    What is this institution that I worship as a god? Please tell me. How am I placing faith in man?

    Just accept it. I lack a belief in a god. My world view is not the same as yours. It is fundamentally different. You seem to be having a great deal of difficulty handling this fact.

    Institutionalizing words? What exactly are those? Since when have I bothered to try disproving the bible? It is not my job to disprove anything. You are the one making positive claims. You need to prove them if you expect me to believe them...
     
  50. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    So with what you said, it isn't unrealistic, nor crazy, nor scientifically false (the Bible is proved scientifically as well), nor impossible, nor foolish, nor whacko, nor idiotic to consider something or someone created this world. Science may not prove the supernatural but science can point to the possibility that there is a creator. Science only proves the intelligence and the design in creation as Einstein intelligently and wisely recognized.

    With all the stuff that is happening in the middle east, the threat of global war, the one-world government, Israel a nation, technology able to embed chips under our skin, what has transpired in my life, I have no doubt the Bible will prove itself out. The prophecies are unfolding so fast now it is amazing.

    And this Bible verse will be so true:

    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

    Stay alert!
     

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