The Liar Syndrome

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by jc4.0, Nov 15, 2012.

  1. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    When you clearly see that a ball was in, and your opponent calls it out from an extremely untenable position (completely across the court, where they have no business making a close call; while you are right on top of the ball, down the line from it in fact - and it absolutely hit smack on the line) - what do you do?
    1. Politely ask to see a mark (on clay)? Knowing that the mark indicated will not be the right one, regardless...
    2. Just give up the point, knowing 100% you just got hooked, and try not to let it bother you.
    3. Tell the opponent you disagree, but will allow the call to stand, per the rules.
    I've got news for you - until we all have "shot spot" or "hawkeye" installed on our courts, this discussion will never end. The end of this scenario never varies, unless you happen to be playing an exceptional "sport".



    If you question a call for any reason - you will be perceived to call your opponent a LIAR. Where the h-ll does that come from?


    None of us is perfect at making calls. Many times I prefer to play the point over, if my friendly opponent vehemently disagrees with a call I made. But I would never assume they are "calling me a liar".


    Today, as you can guess, I played in just such a match. I hit a ball that my partner and I saw clearly on the line, but was called out by one opponent, who was completely across the court from it and could not have possibly properly made the call. Her partner just shrugged his shoulders and said "I dunno, didn't see it".


    My partner and I responded calmly, "whatever, it's your call. We thought it was good but we accept your call." The female opponent, however, went absolutely BALLISTIC, ranting and raving on and on about how we were calling her a LIAR, and we should know her better than that, and it's her call, and we have no right to challenge her call, and so on.


    Fact is, we weren't challenging her call, no matter that it was marginal; and nobody called anybody a liar! She let this get to her so much that she started playing like cr*p, and lost the match. Afterwards, she stomped off the court, refusing to shake hands - while the rest of us hung out together, having a cold drink and making match plans.



    I don't feel like it's wrong to verbally, politely disagree on a call, do you? As long as it's done in a civil and non-accusatory manner, I feel better about saying what I'm feeling, and not holding it in. The call doesn't have to be reversed, we don't have to play it over - I readily accept the call - but I don't have to agree with it, because I simply didn't believe it. Should I pretend that I have changed my mind about this errant call?



    To me - there is no reason to get emotional over anything on court - just not worth it, in any way. While the rest of us "moved on", this person lost the set because her ego and insecurity got in the way.
     
    #1
  2. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    I had a very similar scenario a couple of weeks ago. I hit a passing shot down the line, and had a perfect view of it as it landed just *inside* the line (did not even touch the line). My opponent, who was at the net, and was in the act of turning around, looking behind him, and looking across the line, called it out. I asked him, "are you sure". He said yes, he saw space between the ball and the line. I half-jokingly said, yes, there was space, between the ball and the inside part of the line! But I left it at that - it's his call to make, and I'm not going to get worked up beyond mentioning that I saw it different.

    After the match he apologized, said he felt bad but he really did see it out, and I told him no worries, we call them the way we see them. I have no doubt he thinks he saw it out, and I have no doubt it was in. Calls like that are going to happen, even with two honest players.
     
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  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Was it a league/tournament match or social match? It sounds like it was supposed to be social if she declined to imbibe with the group later.

    Me, I don't question line calls in social matches, ever. When you question a call, you are saying the person who made it was in error, cheated, lied, is blind or some combination of those things. If you want your friendly match to remain friendly, why go there? Just go in knowing that people will blow line calls sometimes and enjoy your tennis anyway.

    If it is a league/tournament match, the most I will do is roll my eyes or laugh openly at a ridiculously bad line call. I see no point in aggressively questioning a line call because people do not change their calls no matter how loudly you ask, "Are you sure of your call?"

    That's how I roll.
     
    #3
  4. Andreas1965

    Andreas1965 Rookie

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    If my opponent makes constantly bad calls in a tournament or league match, I just wait for his next ball being clearly in. Then I call this ball "out" with a big grin. If he starts a discussion I simply tell him "my side, my judgement". The key is to be very, very stubborn, don't engage in a discussion! No let, no correction. Show him some random mark of an out-ball.

    Most opponents get the message really quick. The result is (90% of all those matches) proper calling from then on.

    Sidenote: I have a guy in my team who is notorious for his bad calls. He's the nicest guy you'll ever meet, he doesn't do this because of not being a good sport. He wears the thickest glasses I've ever seen and sometimes simply seems to be challenged by his vision.
    Remember, not all bad-callers are cheaters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
    #4
  5. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Most people I play with know that I was a pretty good umpire, and they just don't cheat or try to make up stupid rules when they play against me.

    If I don't know the person, I make sure to tell them before the match. LOL, just kidding.
     
    #5
  6. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    I agree, nobody should get worked up. But sometimes it's just a reflex, like, "wow, that was actually in." Then I back off and accept the call. No drama needed or called for.

    What I disagree with is just what you said - NOBODY IS CALLING ANYBODY A LIAR. Why go there? Nobody is perfect in terms of line calls. Just realize that, and we'll all have a nice day.
     
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  7. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    If you accept an opponent's close call without question, you are behaving as though you trust them to call lines honestly and competently.

    If you question a call with "wow, that was actually in," you are behaving as though they either made a mistake, cheated, hooked, are incompetent, didn't give benefit of the doubt etc. Surely you see why someone might take umbrage at the insinuation in a social match, yes?

    If you want to lessen the impact of the insinuation, it is probably best to stick with a question ("Are you sure?") than declarative statements that you are calling the lines on their side of the court better than they can.

    Or keep doing what you're doing and don't sweat it if folks hate you for it. :shrug :
     
    #7
  8. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    So tell us again - what do you say when someone plays your serve that you thought was out?

    I disagree, it depends on how you say it. If your skin is so thin that you feel you are being called a liar every time you make an iffy call, find another sport. I see no difference whatsoever in saying "are you sure?" and "that looked in". The meaning is exactly the same - and that meaning is not "you're a liar!" Fact is, your sad insecurities made you interpret it that way. Grow up! If anyone thinks they have never made a bad call, then you are completely delusional. Sometimes I can make a call better than you. If you hate me for it, I think that hatred comes from a place that should be discussed with your psychologist, not brought to a tennis match.
     
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  9. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    Actually I find it entertaining watching the challenges in pro tennis. Granted the speeds and spin are much higher, but I find that at a third of the time, the players are wrong about balls they thought were in. Some players are even less than 50%. If the pros can be wrong, then I'm sure we may not be as accurate as we believe.

    One retired pro once said he figured on getting 4 bad calls a match and never worried about it. Don't know what he'd do if there was a 5th? I apologize b/c I can't remember his name now. I haven't had more than 1 or 2 bad calls against me in a match.
     
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  10. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    The players' are actually wrong about 2/3 of the time.
     
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  11. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Huh?

    If my opponent returns my serve that I thought was out, I play the point.

    If my opponent returns a serve that was obviously out and she signals it as out, then she has violated the Code. In a social match, I say nothing about this and do not correct her for her error in etiquette.

    In a league match, I usually do not say anything for a couple of reasons.

    First, my partner is probably doing the same bloody thing, so I don't want to start a war by calling out my opponents.

    Second, stopping my service game to argue about the Code will likely make me lose focus and play poorly.

    Third . . . I feel like a salmon swimming upstream on the returning of Obviously Out Serves. It is probably the Code provision that is violated more frequently than any other at my level (3.5/4.0). I just don't have the energy to launch a crusade, so I just grind my teeth and live with it.

    I have given up, and the Obviously Out Fault returners have won.
     
    #11
  12. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    Well, that is a very reasonable attitude. I applaud you.
    I'll go now, I have little time available to irritate everyone in these posts - hope I have added a little spice to the day. Love me or hate me!!! Don't really care, but have a great game tomorrow, I know I will!
     
    #12
  13. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Part of that is because they issue some challenges on the hope it was out when it was a clear winner or ace on/near the line. They have 3 challenges, and if you are right you keep them, so why not?

    If they only challenged balls they genuinely thought were out, their ratio would be significantly higher IMHO.
     
    #14
  15. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Maybe by a couple of percentage points, but definitely not by a difference of 33%.
     
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  16. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    From http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/challenge/index.html
    Code:
    [FONT="Courier New"]Singles Challenge Summary
                                          Men's      Women's
    Total Number of Challenges          428        191
    Number of Correct Challenges        120	       49
    Number of Incorrect Challenges      308	       142
    Percentage Overturned               28.04%     25.65%
    Avg. Challenges per Match           7.78       4.06
    
    
    Challenge % Leaders - Men's singles
    Rank	  Player	Challenges	Overturned	% Overturned
    1	  Sergiy Stakhovsky	1	1	100%
    2	  Tomas Berdych	3	2	66.67%
    3	  Grega Zemlja	5	3	60%
    4	  Igor Andreev	8	4	50%
    4	  Jeremy Chardy	6	3	50%
    4	  David Goffin	4	2	50%
    4	  Julien Benneteau	4	2	50%
    4	  Brian Baker	2	1	50%
    4	  Nikolay Davydenko	2	1	50%
    4	  Guillermo Garcia-Lopez	2	1	50%
    11	  Novak Djokovic	20	9	45%
    12	  Lukas Rosol	7	3	42.86%
    13	  Mardy Fish	15	6	40%
    13	  Bernard Tomic	5	2	40%
    13	  Grigor Dimitrov	5	2	40%
    16	  David Ferrer	17	6	35.29%
    17	  Sam Querrey	18	6	33.33%
    17	  Andy Roddick	12	4	33.33%
    17	  Xavier Malisse	9	3	33.33%
    17	  Juan Martin Del Potro	9	3	33.33%
    17	  Benoit Paire	6	2	33.33%
    17	  Mikhail Youzhny	3	1	33.33%
    17	  Guillaume Rufin	3	1	33.33%
    17	  John Isner	3	1	33.33%
    17	  Ryan Sweeting	3	1	33.33%
    26	  Marin Cilic	16	5	31.25%
    27	  James Ward	10	3	30%
    28	  Nicolas Almagro	11	3	27.27%
    29	  Andy Murray	40	10	25%
    29	  Jo-Wilfried Tsonga	24	6	25%
    29	  Kei Nishikori	4	1	25%
    29	  Florian Mayer	4	1	25%
    29	  Kenny De Schepper	4	1	25%
    29	  Ivo Karlovic	4	1	25%
    29	  Alejandro Falla	4	1	25%
    29	  Lleyton Hewitt	4	1	25%
    29	  Gilles Simon	4	1	25%
    29	  Ryan Harrison	4	1	25%
    29	  Fernando Verdasco	4	1	25%
    29	  David Nalbandian	4	1	25%
    29	  Juan Monaco	4	1	25%
    42	  Roger Federer	21	5	23.81%
    43	  Oliver Golding	9	2	22.22%
    44	  Fabio Fognini	5	1	20%
    44	  Ernests Gulbis	5	1	20%
    46	  Richard Gasquet	6	1	16.67%
    47	  Janko Tipsarevic	15	2	13.33%
    48	  Viktor Troicki	7	0	0%
    48	  Milos Raonic	6	0	0%
    48	  Lukas Lacko	5	0	0%
    48	  Rafael Nadal	4	0	0%
    48	  Philipp Kohlschreiber	4	0	0%
    48	  Radek Stepanek	4	0	0%
    48	  Bjorn Phau	3	0	0%
    48	  Thomaz Bellucci	2	0	0%
    48	  Jamie Baker	2	0	0%
    48	  Marcos Baghdatis	2	0	0%
    48	  Albert Ramos	2	0	0%
    48	  Kevin Anderson	2	0	0%
    48	  Robin Haase	2	0	0%
    48	  Josh Goodall	2	0	0%
    48	  Ruben Bemelmans	2	0	0%
    48	  Juan Carlos Ferrero	1	0	0%
    Top 10 | Show All[/FONT]
    These two players particularly stand out to me:
    47 Janko Tipsarevic 15 challenges with only 2 overturned (13.33% correct)
    48 Viktor Troicki 7 challenges with 0 overturned (0% correct)
     
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  17. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Troicki certainly doesn't surprise me. That boy has always thought that every close call was wrong that an umpire made, back to when he was playing challengers.
     
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  18. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Hey Cindy.

    The ball landed in, and the person called it out. What's the big deal about calling them a liar? They are one.

    J
     
    #18
  19. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I've watched a bunch of league matches over the past few months. I was quite surprised at the number of people who got worked up over calls that were actually correct. IOW, the people who got upset about being hooked were wrong a vast majority of the time. Something for all of us to keep in mind as we play. :)
     
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  20. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Depends on who I am playing with ... but if I am going to say anything it would be ....

    "Dude, that was in" ....

    Usually I say nothing, but if I am sure I have no qualms about saying so.
     
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  21. Sumo

    Sumo Semi-Pro

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    This is how I've done it the one or two times I ever have.

    Also, I would only ever say anything on sideline calls. Baseline and service line calls are too difficult to see to call someone out. This is also the reason I think it's ridiculous when people say they can see if someone is footfaulting by inches.
     
    #21
  22. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    Totally agree. If I ever challenged an opponent's call (and tbh I've yet to be in a situation where I felt strongly enough about it to do so) that's how I'd do it-- rather than asking "are you sure," which carries the implication that your opponent actually wasn't sure and might be fudging the call. Better to focus on what actually happened than start questioning people's mentalities and motivations.

    And if I'm not certain enough to confidently say "that was in," I don't think I'm certain enough to make an issue out of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
    #22
  23. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    C'mon, gals. Play nice.

    If it's social, either keep it to yourself, question it as a joke....or declare it...and accept the consequence (take the point...or lose a friend).

    If it's for real, well then, ask for clarification...once...and then just roll with the punches. Hit the ball at "The T"....and it can't be called out...so that, at our recreational level, your opponent will make the subsequent error. That you can then, clearly, call out.
     
    #23
  24. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Spider veins and Mixed Doubles are the enemy of the enlightened man.
     
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  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I find that opponents will also mistakes on T serves. The problem is the receiver should call that center line because she is looking down it, but the receiver's partner often feels like she should call it because she is closer. This causes the receiver's partner to err on balls that clip the outside of the line in a situation she she could not possibly have seen space.

    I tell my partners that I want them only to call the service line when I am receiving, and that I will not be calling the far sideline and center line when they are receiving. It cuts way down on partner disputes where we forfeit a point.
     
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  26. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    Oops. I should have been more specific. I was suggesting to hit the ball in the middle of the court...during a rally...not necessarily on the serve.

    But I'm with you, I only expect my net partner to call the service line and neither the center or sideline. Occasionally, they'll call a particularly egregious call that I am/was hopelessly out of position (or out of focus!) to call.

    Still, I've never felt a "question" of my call was an indictment of my integrity. They just saw it differently than I did. I'd be hard pressed, though, to remember the last time a questioned call came up in USTA play by me or an opponent. We must be a little more easy-goin' around here.
     
    #26
  27. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ironically, the more uncommon it is for people to question a call, the more people take it as an insult because it is out of the ordinary.

    I found people questioned calls a lot in ladies 2.5/3.0 (perhaps due to our collective lack of experience). I find hardly anyone questions calls in mixed 7.0 and 8.0. The only time I have seen two guys get into a snit in mixed about line calls was when both were 3.5s. I don't think any of this reflects lack of honesty, necessarily. I think part of it is that the ball is coming faster and it is hard to focus on hitting it when you are calling the line also.

    In contrast, my 4.5 partner seemed to call the lines unbelievably generously. Sometimes I was like, "Wow, I can't believe he played that ball!"
     
    #27
  28. sportlerin

    sportlerin New User

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    One thing that irks me is an opponent who will aggressively question out calls of their balls that sail six inches beyond the baseline. Not because I feel my integrity is being challenged, but because imo a real tennis player should feel it in their shot, that a ball is clearly long.
     
    #28
  29. NTexas

    NTexas New User

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    I feel the same way, when i hit it i usually know in or out just by feel of the shot. but i totally think people get way to worked up by line calls and most people make asses of themselves. i mean come on people its a game, we do it for stress relief not added stress by the game or the calls.
     
    #29
  30. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I played mixed doubles tonight with a female friend and two guys I didn't know at all. The two guys knew each other.

    Early in the match, one guy called a ball out on the far sideline. I was standing on the line. The ball was totally in.

    In light of this thread, I waited to see what would happen.

    My partner looked at me and said, "Did they call that out?" I said, "Yup."

    He raised his eyebrows, shrugged, walked to the baseline and said, "30-15." Then he body-served the guy for a service winner.
     
    #30
  31. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Just. Stop.

    Focus on you and what Cindy wants.

    This tennis thing must come to an end if your true dreams are to come true.
     
    #31
  32. PrimeChoice

    PrimeChoice New User

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    #32
  33. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Opponents calling balls out that were in becomes a bad deal. The OP is right on how it goes and Cindy is smart in just accepting what happens and move on. The reality is ONE bad call will generally not change who wins. Three? Five? Ten bad calls? Somewhere in there the game dynamic changes and emotions get super-charged and everything becomes aggressive.

    To question an opponent on a line call is telling them you think they are wrong and you want the point. There is NO other reason to do such!

    I almost always know the opponents I play as they are my friends. If they call a ball out and I see it as in I’ll walk up to the net and say so. I ask each of the three other players on the court what they saw and go from there. If the three of them say it was out and I thought it was in likely I’m wrong.

    In fact every couple of sets I hit a serve that gets called in and often gets flubbed for our point. Yet I tell them it was out (usually if it’s a serve down the T on as I have a good look if it’s wide or not but not necessarily if too deep or in). Many times I protest my serve was wide or long and they won’t budge – they say it’s in.

    I walk back to the baseline shaking my head wondering how I can be wrong or why are they giving me an unearned point? I don’t like charity and would much prefer to earn all my points. Yet on the converse I’d prefer to call their shots in if it’s questionable because it makes me feel better. I don’t want argument. They get the benefit-of-my-doubt.

    Yet, if I were a smart man, I’d just accept what others see and simply play tennis. In the long-run incorrect calls should average out (well in theory) and very seldom change the outcome of who wins. Yet I have not become a smart man yet so I’ll still let opponents know if I think they are wrong.


    (This thread was created just 4 days ago yet jc4.0 is "banned" below his/her name?)
     
    #33
  34. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    LOL. such a shame. She was such a great contributor to TT.
     
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  35. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    Huh?      
     
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  36. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I believe I saw the word "banned" under the OP's name when I posed last in this thread 36 hours ago. As of a few minutes ago I see it says "Semi-pro" so I apparently gotta lay off the crack (just kiddin' of course) and stop hallucinating! :shock:
     
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  37. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    If it's just a friendly match, who cares?

    If it's a competitive match, who cares if they think you think they're a liar. Call someone over to call the lines.
     
    #37
  38. Fusker

    Fusker Rookie

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    1. This is a perfect situation where if I'm the guy out of position, would ask you how you saw the call. Unfortunately, my request is always met with "Sorry, couldn't tell" or "I think it was good."

      On the other hand, I've had a couple of these happen to me recently where I hit a little drop volley right on the line (shouldn't have cut it that close, but did) while the opponent is hustling to get to it. Ball lands clearly on the outer half of the line and gets called out. I'm feet away from it as opposed to half a court away. Usually I just shrug it off and squirrel it away that he's going to call them that way.
     
    #38
  39. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    For sure - Tell the opponent you disagree, but will allow the call to stand, per the rules.
    But it depends and maybe this is not it.
     
    #39
  40. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Girls on the L train.

    All liars.
     
    #40
  41. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2004
    Messages:
    4,885
    In Chicago Axel's are sometimes known as Rod's.
     
    #41
  42. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
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    Location:
    NorCal
    I question the call, then move on to the next point


    :mrgreen:
     
    #42
  43. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    6,166
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Or you may have perceived that it landed in. I have that problem with people in league matches more often than anything else. They hit balls that are relatively close but clearly out and then I signal out and they complain... So annoying dealing with that, and I'm glad I'm taking a nice long break from playing league matches.
     
    #43
  44. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    225
    Location:
    Mesa, AZ
    All-righty then!

    I played a mixed doubles match not too long ago, and our opponents' line calling was atrocious. Serves that skidded off the line were all called out, most of them late calls to boot. One slice serve that hit the outside line (deuce side) was returned into the net and the receiver moved toward the net as if to acknowledge the point was over and he was positioning himself for the next point, only to have his partner say "No, that was out". He then backed up and claimed the ball was out as well.

    Add to that several calls of long on balls that clearly landed on the baseline. One call was made in unison before the ball landed ... just inside the baseline. (This was on a critical point that could have turned the match.) I could see my partner was getting frustrated, so I called her over and told her not to worry about it, we would just continue with our game plan, which had been working pretty good. On the next point, I wound up like I was going to hit a screamer and pulled back on it for a drop shot winner. I secretly thought to myself ... "Let's see them call that one out".

    I do not question an opponent's call. It is their call to make, even if it is wrong. If they are unsure, they can ask (but most won't). I also do not let it get me so upset that it affects my game.

    Apparently, that is not the easiest thing to do.

    After all of what my partner and I perceived as terrible calls throughout the first set and a half on their part with no questioning from us, both my partner and I called a serve out. Our opponents became outraged and clearly stated that the ball was in, even though it was called long by both of us as soon as it hit. We both reiterated that it was indeed just long. I even went so far as to tell them it did hit the singles sideline behind the service line, so it may have looked good from their angle, but it was indeed out.

    Our opponent then began serving as hard as he could in obvious anger on first and second serves and wound up double faulting the game away. I thought the anger would subside on my partner's serve, but I was wrong. Ball after ball was struck with immense force, most of them sailing long or being dumped into the net. Some were even hit at us, which is a legal thing to do, but I think it showed the immaturity of our opponents.

    We wound up winning the match against a team we probably should have lost to because they couldn't control their anger over one perceived bad call.

    If you are the victim of bad line calling, let it go. Adjust your game and get on with playing your best. Chances are, you will end up on the "W" side of the ledger.

    Nobody gets the calls right all the time. Do your best and be honest, win or lose. I can't control other peoples' actions, so why waste the energy. Channel it into hitting the next shot, not arguing over a call. I think this is a strategy that will work well for just about everyone (except John McEnroe). :)
     
    #44

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