The Oscar Wagner forehand

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Djoker91, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. Djoker91

    Djoker91 Rookie

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    So I've had a massive amount of trouble with the modern topspin forehand. I always hit them way to high and loopy. Could never get low trajectory. I just watched the Oscar Wagner bit on the "pulling across motion" being the key. Has anyone had success with that certain feel? I haven't tried and and I am looking to do it tomorrow now that the weather is nice. Will this be the key I've been missing? I DO have good mechanics, my forehand resembles tipservic's. Just been missing this one thing. Always missing long and loopy. With this cure that?
     
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  2. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    See a recommend tennis pro in your area.

    -SF
     
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  3. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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  4. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Oh my goshhhh..that simpson gif really cracks me up..so hilarious..Thanks, tennis balla
     
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  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Don't force the pulling across motion. You still need to maintain the ratio of brushing up versus hitting through that you need for a particular stroke, and also the desired direction. Focus on getting these variables correct, rather than thinking where your arm should land up. There is a myth that all kinds of spin and pace and placement can be achieved with the same swing across the body. It may be possible in theory for optimally arriving balls, but watch the pros. They will often use a pronounced wrist flip to place a ball wide on the forehand, noticeably move their weight forward for a DTL shot, switch to a reverse FH on a wider ball, etc. They also adjust the swing speed, making it slower when the confidence level is lower. Famous ex-coaches who were formerly pro players have pointed out that most club players will never hit all shots with the fast across-the-body swing - they will only produce weak shots and injure themselves. But all juniors, college players, and pros can do it. They have the basic fast across swing in place, and adjust around it. But don't think it is easy as some may try to make you believe. It is a slow journey.
     
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  6. T-T-T

    T-T-T New User

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    The Oscar Wegner forehand finish is basically what both Nadal and Federer do (Nadal when he finishes across the chest properly).
    I find that this finish helps my students hit the ball more aggressive but with control and topspin. What Wegner mentions is you should feel you are pulling the racket back into your body using your bicep muscle while staying loose. Most of my pupils really improve when they start trying to feel the bicep pull
     
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  7. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    This just gets better and better. I'm trying hard, I really am not to respond.
     
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  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    balla likes to enjoy himself watching amateurs dispense free and faulty advice
     
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  9. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Not at all, lots of good advice in here. It just didn't take long for another one of these threads to pop up did it.
     
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  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I got into the site. Seems to be UK-based. But it does not mention any names of pros (like you) who are running it.

    When I get some time, I will go over the free tips section.

    So the paid services are stroke analysis and more videos of pros for comparison?
     
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  11. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    What he says isn't literally what happens during a forehand. What it does it make people get the feel for hitting a certain way and it definitely helps for some people.
     
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  12. Djoker91

    Djoker91 Rookie

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    Listen bro, I don't know what the attitude is about. Excuse me for liking the wonderful sport of tennis enough to want to reach out an improve. Jesus bro...
     
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  13. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Bro, I wasn't commenting on your orignal post, bro. You should research on how professionals hit forehands, especially the top 4. The Wegner forehand has been discussed here, rather beaten to death for the past 4 years or so. That dead horse was beaten so many times it wasn't even recognizable anymore.

    Its too bad a lot of those threads were deleted by TW because there was a wealth of information in them, but almost 80% of it was useless arguing which is why it got shut down unfortunately. People took things very personally and things got way out of hand. This is why I posted what I did, a not this again. It had nothing to do with you personally.

    If the Wegner method works for you, then great. However, if you believe pros hit their forehands like in this video then...well...that's your opinion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYYc-bn5vz4
     
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  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I don't think so. They were always about best-case forehands, and almost nothing else. The discussion was always about whether to call something classical or modern. There have been any other useful threads about the nuances of the stroke and real practical advice from a variety of people.
     
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  15. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Djoker, I suggest reading the tennisspeed blog articles about the forehand.
     
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  16. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    The stuff that was posted from all sides was good. 5163, Wegner, Ash, Yandell etc. I didn't agree with all of it, but at times there was quality things posted to learn from. Sadly it was all buried underneath tons of arguments and crap and one poster who wouldn't leave Wegner alone. ;-)
    Agree with it or not at least it was backed by people who are professionals in the sport and not someone posting random diagrams, physics formulas and theories like whats been happening in here lately. I don't agree with a lot of what Oscar teaches, however I would like the opportunity to possibly meet him and see in action and ask him face to face what his methodology is all about.
     
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  17. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    God forbid we abandon little pics with equations and angles of racket face and rec players theories on advanced tennis. The atp would never reached new heights without ttw forum coaches.

    Nevermind the fact that oscar actually taught pro players. He can't possibly have any value or insight.
     
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Most of the people who post their links don't talk cra** about other coaches by name (those who don't post here) and get an army of people to back them up with pseudo posts and threads, and multiple usernames. Neither do they try to derail every thread to insert their own references there and twist the discussions to introduce their product, bullying anyone who will not agree with their classification of strokes.

    It is a matter of common sense and of degree, as always. Someone who leaves a card for a service outside your door and someone who calls you day and night and bangs on your door at midnight are not comparable.
     
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  19. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    Well, I went from hitting a very flat driving forehand to hitting a heavy topspin forehand recently. I had the same problem as you.

    Put flatly, the problem is that your prep and footwork sucks. You probably are preparing way too late and out of position for the shot.

    The one thing I've noticed with the heavy topspin forehand is how much more it emphasizes the need for accurate positioning of the feet and the importance of a consistent and accurate contact point.

    If your preparation foot and positioning is off, you will end up compensating with a poor swing. Ball contact is either way too far out front, or way too low, or too much beside the body.

    Split step the second the ball hits the opponents racquet. When the ball comes off, start to move and prepare. If you wait longer than this, then unless the ball comes right to you -- perfectly -- your stroke is going to have a lot of troubles.

    Good luck.
     
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  20. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Back on topic.
    1) oscar never bad mouthed other coaches. He just does not think much of their instruction.
    2) oscar never posted under various alaises.
    3) suresh is butt hurt because oscar made light of john yandel.
    4) John yandel was the first person to realise tennis balls slowed down at the bounce. And oscar never gave jy fealty on that fact so that's why suresh hates all things wegner.

    Oh...

    5) after trying the wegner pull back it does not work for me. I see what he is trying to say. And I see some of that active bicep in some atp fhs. But I don't really think it is what they do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
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  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Others did it, while he took the high road. Good cop, bad cop.
     
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  22. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    sureshs has a point, a small one. Although at times Oscar did tell some of the other posters to quiet down, it was never a full on stop and I think people like teachestennis and that lady forgot her id name did more harm than good. Which makes it interesting why someone like OW didn't put a stop to it and speak for himself.

    Having said, I think you should be the last person who speaks out about this sureshs as you pretty much stalked OW for the better part of 3 years.
     
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  23. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    Order his book. It's great. I have utmost respect for OW. My game has changed dramatically since using his method.
     
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  24. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    On the original question:

    I will have to agree that if the ball is consistently long or high or loopty the problem is probably something more than the finish. These things are impossible to really diagnosis conclusively without frame by frame video.

    But likely the preparation and turn are late or incomplete, and or the contact point is late. Or due to problems in the backswing the op is not getting his hitting arm in position to make the right forward/upward swing.

    The problem with talking about "the" finish is that it does not exist. First the amount of hand and arm rotation varies by grip. Second it is situational by the ball.

    The racket always continues on the forward vector after contact. That's just a simple fact that can't be contradicted by reason or evidence. Bicep contract often happens substantially after contact especially for the straight arm guys like Roger or Rafa. But the exact duration of that forward/outward vector, as well as the upward and left to right components all vary with the incoming ball and contact height as well as the out going path.

    There is such a thing roughly as a moderate topspin power drive finish or extension point. This is the point just before the racket starts to move backwards in the wrap. This is a great place to start in learning to improve you forehand. Hit from a stationary position on a ball machine with an even feed, get the ball in your strike zone and hit with depth say half way between the service line or baseline or deeper.

    As I said arm rotation can vary, but basically your hand will reach eye level and will be even with the left side of your torso. There will be substantial space between your hand and torso as well--up to a couple of feet depending on the length of your arms and to some extent the grip.

    But all that is irrelevant if there are fundamental problems in the earlier stages of the swing which I suspect is what is going on for the op.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
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  25. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    John Y is most likely correct.

    But the defining thing here is Oscars instruction to the op would be "find the ball with your hand. Pull left to finish. "

    Jys instruction is quoted above. Huh?
     
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  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What does "find the ball with your hand" mean?

    Nothing useful.

    You don't pull to the left. You rotate into the ball and this naturally causes a swing across the body if the swing is powerful and fast.
     
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  27. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    It means just that. Stick your hand towards the ball. While holding the racket. Then... wait for it.... Pull racket to the left.

    If you can't even comprehend this simple instruction how can you possibly understand a single word john yandel typed? I was not saying oscar is correct. Just laughing at what jy would tell the op.
     
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  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    LOL "stick your hand towards the ball"

    How simple and how useless!

    What about pat the dog and pointing the butt roughly to the ball? Are they all covered by such stupid statements? Or only the forward swing? Where do you think the hand points when people hit with the racket? Away from the ball? LOL

    It is amazing how many fools there are who don't understand "simple, but no simpler." No wonder the snake oil salesmen make a fortune by selling simplicity as people are always looking for a silver bullet to play like the pros.

    If you didn't know that the hand is roughly towards the ball when you swing your racket at it, you should really reevaluate your strategies.
     
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  29. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Am I doing it right?
    pat the dog:
    [​IMG]

    point the butt:
    [​IMG]

    find the ball:
    [​IMG]

    and the trophy position:
    [​IMG]
     
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  30. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    U need little diagrams. And star trek symbols. Then maybe people will get it.
     
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  31. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    I think I just figure out my forehand
    [​IMG]
     
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  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The tummy also points towards the ball when you hit it. So the correct advice is to find the ball with your tummy.

    Finding the ball with your hand only gets you closer to the ball than needed and jams you.
     
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  33. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Epic fail.
     
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  34. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    When a coach told me to use my off hand on my fh I ended up catching the ball with my left hand everytime. Until I realised what the pro meant was to use the off hand as an aid and not actually catch the ball. I used high speed video to figure this out with the help of suresh and john yandel. I finally after many diagrams and video managed to not catch the ball with my left hand after it left the throat of my racket.
     
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  35. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    Lol coach suresh is off the mark on this one. Hand finding ball at the stalking position. Hand then yank left so the racket face is aligned with the ball. The yank is 20.4683578 inches. Which explains why the racket is 27
     
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  36. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Wut... ? Lol. Dozu buddy!
     
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  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is good advice to somebody who is just starting or has played 40 years without noticing how the pros play.

    Other than that, anybody with common sense figures it out himself.
     
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  38. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    Yup. That's what real men do
     
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  39. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    That's the most stupid thing I've ever heard
     
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  40. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    With or without the aid of little random pictures?

    Maybe you and suresh can start the rec hack academy? Ill be your first student.

    Balla already posted the fh diagram for you.
     
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  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Real men look for specific tips, not vague statements
     
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  42. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Real men don't need tips.
     
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  43. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    People not following men code are not allowed in our academy
     
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  44. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    To some, find the ball with your hand could be usefull. Others might like a different way of explaining the way of getting in the right position.
    And pull to the left, or swing across the body is almost just a discussion about words. And you did a lot of damage to earlier threads by for instance implying that Wegner suggested to hit the ball backwards and use several posts to argue against that. And then it took you ages to understand and admit that hitting through, over AND across the ball is not at all uncommon in modern tennis. Not mentioning the fact that many pros use a LOT of racket acceleration just prior to hitting the ball (look at Ferrer in the thread of players practicing videoed from behind for instance).
    So while I find it totally ok that you might disagree with Wegner on some or many points, I think it would do the atmosphere of discussion a ton of good if we abstain from ridiculing, misrepresenting and taking things out of context.
    I for one do not like the word pull backwards so much, but in the video of Wegner posted here, he also uses the word across, and mentions the turning of the body also. Not alone are there different ways of hitting, there are also different ways of explaining it. So while it is productive to discuss differences, it is counterproductive to deny any common ground imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Look at the videos and decide for yourself (for both FH and BH) if the advice was to pull back or not. You will likely find that it is not only about pulling back, but also pulling back abruptly at contact on the FH and transference of weight backwards on the BH, which is pure BS.

    Everyone knows that there is up, across, and forward motions. I never said otherwise and what you write is your own imagination, so stop attributing that to me. Read my analysis in umpteen posts about the trajectory of the swing, which may be beyond your limited reading ability, but that is not my problem.

    If someone says pros pull back abruptly at contact, and you believe it, you should also be ridiculed. If something is wrong, pointing it out is not ridicule, especially when the wrong stuff is repeated over and over again in the face of evidence showing the opposite. If you are a sucker for that, go ahead LOL.

    And did you really think pros do not accelerate into the ball till you saw Ferrer? You are some precious kind of guy. You did not even understand what was being discussed, did you? It was the claim that there was acceleration after the ball was hit. Turns out there is some acceleration upwards after impact, and deceleration in the forward direction, with a net effect of decreasing velocity after impact. The claim was that the maximum velocity point occurred after impact and in front of the body, which is wrong. It was a bogus interpretation of a correct video by Vic Braden. Also, the acceleration decreases by the time of impact, which means that there is acceleration, but not as much as at some time before. Does this mean there is no acceleration? No, it means that the peak has been reached before impact, and the acceleration cannot be increased any more. The impact is around maximum speed, not acceleration.

    But you don't even know what was being discussed, and thought that Ferrer does not accelerate into the ball. I wonder why I even bother to reply.
     
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  46. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    You can't stop yourself from replying anything wegnar. Ill test my theory shortly in another thread.
     
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  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What theory is that?
     
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  48. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    You used an example of a ball on the ground and arguing that it would not move foreward if you pulled the racket away from it...
    You spoke against it, then mentioned that Nadal and Federer was able to swipe across the ball, and then finally realised many players do so.
    I will not comment on your arguing about others reading ability.
    I just explained my view on that in the previous post.
    I wrote "for instance".
    The sideways acceleration had not been taken into consideration admitted by you. And the obvious slowing of the racket by the impact was ofcourse a contributing factor, agreed by all. I had a whole thread on the subject racket head acceleration through impact. You are welcome to revise it.
    So there can be accelleration through impact, barring the slowing by the impact, great we totally agree, no fuss.
    This was written as an answer to your one time view that late acceleration before impact was wrong (a discussion that ended up being about how many milliseconds late is).

    I see you choose to continue your sadly potentially thread ending attitude. Best regards from me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
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  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    I think Suresh understands these issues quite well. There is going to be disagreement naturally. But there is a lot of confusion in some of these posts because the issues are complex.

    There has been a limited amount of actual study that bears upon them--and much of it is not widely known--so it's not surprising that there a lot of opinions being voiced that the posters themselves would probably revise with access to and study of more and better information.
     
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  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is wrong. There is no abrupt change in anything just before impact. There is nothing like late acceleration - it is the decreased acceleration which is a continuation of the previous acceleration (in the forward direction). After impact, there is a big change.
     
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