The Oscar Wagner forehand

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Djoker91, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    toly is back with his federer-insect-robot pics!
     
  2. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    What is extension? :confused:
     
  3. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    toly is back with his simple questions which no one will bother to answer
     
  4. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    There could be wrist, elbow and maybe more extensions. Why don’t you use English medical terminology? I really cannot understand what you are talking about.:(
     
  5. thecode

    thecode Banned

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    The video as shared, started near the 1:27 shot, so it is pretty clear which stroke was being referenced, as you acknowledge in your edit. It is also quite evident that it is the one that fits the situation OW speaks of in the video you referenced, since Federer has moved to the forehand side to play a standard rally shot where he will shift his weight right to left (and back) during the shot to facilitate the recovery. Also it is a video of actual play where Federer will need to play it right and actually recover, opposed to just video of his customary lazy warm up style. I went back to the video to see what you meant about Oscar falling to his left and didn't see him fall or him suggesting to fall, so maybe this is just a misunderstanding due to his emphasis on the very clear right to left weight shift? Maybe that instruction is not for you, but surely you can see how Federer is exhibits the elements discussed in the OW video.
     
  6. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    arm extension. abduction. follow through.
     
  7. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    As far as I know, Wegner is not about stopping the racket, or pulling it backwards. He is more about getting into position and accelerating, yanking, call it what you will, through and up across the ball. The "back" thing is more about that you pull/accelerate through the shot and end up with the racket around your body, pointing backwards. That is not totally nonsense to me.
    But different folks, different strokes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  8. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I once had a video with Yahangir Khan, and it was noticable how he did this on every shot. Making the first step back to the center of the court a part of his shot, which also aided the accelerating, whipping of the racket. He had amazing footwork, hardly ever having both feet of the ground, while others were scrambling around.
     
  9. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Unless you want to accelerate through the ball.
     
  10. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    According to Wegner yanking is “shortening” of the arm. So, he advises that we should bend the elbow rapidly before impact. I don’t know any pro who does something like that. Most of them are doing quite the opposite.:shock:
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    A backward transfer of weight does happen sometimes, but not in the sense of falling back. Sometimes you see that a pro will start in a semi-open stance, right leg back at an angle to the baseline. Through the stroke, he might drag his right toes up a little, and move his left foot back a bit, with the net effect of his body axis being an inch or two more behind than when he started.
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    LOL I remember how some guy was going on and on about how bending of the arm just before contact increases angular velocity due to conservation of momentum. True it would - if you bring your arms closer to yourself as a diver does. The fact that this does not happen in reality but rather there is the opposite - a straightening - happening was lost on this guy. He turned it into a debate on whether the bent arm would increase the speed much.
     
  13. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    The bend elbow FH can increase RHS compare to straight arm FH, but it has nothing to do with conservation of momentum.
    I explained that hundreds times already, see please post #227 http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6029956#post6029956.
     
  14. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Back to the center is not backwards, it is sideways.
     
  15. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I would suggest it means accelerating/pulling through, up and across the ball. The across factor depending greatly on the height of the ball and trajectory desired.
    Btw the way I am not saying everything Oscar Wegner says is right, just trying to have a meaningfull debate...
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It might be a little back in absolute terms. I agree that there is no weight transfer backwards, as claimed.
     
  17. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Yes, as opposed to passively letting the racket float/extend foreward. But I agree that it is not so much about conservation of momentum, but more that the acceleration/active pulling through/across/over connects the racket weight to the body/arm system more than a passive followthrough, as the discussion furthered into.
    Edit: I just saw the Wegner video, and that is exactly what he is saying: The pulling across "connects the body to the impact".
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  18. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    But once again you were arguing against something someone was not saying. Well at least not me anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  19. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    I must admit I just read this for the first time. So in a way, it is a discussion about whether it is a good idea to go straight to getting the basic fast across swing in place, or taking a long, complicated detour.
    And Djoker91, how has it been working for you?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  20. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]
     
  21. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    He he..
    10 chx
     
  22. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    But some things seem to be comming "across"...
     
  23. Djoker91

    Djoker91 Rookie

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    I'm sorry to get back late guys. I figured out what happened on me. I have an eastern, slightly towards semi western grip. It was the take-back. I like djokovic. I was pointing the racket face at the back fence like he does. When swinging forward I was shoveling. Pointed the racket at the side fence (which ironically felt much more comfortable) and I have the lower trajectory I've been longing. Do what's comfortable, not what someone else does. That take-back djokovic uses is for a near wester grip. I swing forward and at point of impact I snap the forearm over, giving some great spin, 3 feet over the net, and a really crisp windshield wiper finish
     
  24. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    ^ Ok, great but why was I quoted?
     
  25. Djoker91

    Djoker91 Rookie

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    Does all that sounds fundamental to you? Like sounding like what a modern forehand should be like?
     
  26. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Good to hear!
     
  27. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    This gave me a bit of a chuckle, Oscar Wegner has a longer wikipedia page than Nick Bolletieri.
     
  28. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    my favourite couple sentences are right at the beginning:" A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with it´s subject. It may require cleanup to comply with wikipedia content policies, particularly neutral point of view"

    and then once you´ve read the whole page, you begin to understand these sentences:)
     
  29. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Does Oscar still post here?

    I do believe in what he is saying on the forehand, but I think there is a caveat.

    You have to be able to hit through the ball before you can really get the to the point of coming across. Coming across is the next level of power IMO.

    I warmed up tonight and just hit through the ball..I hit with topspin even coming through the ball so it is a nice rally ball. Decided to take it up a notch and start swinging harder and coming across.

    Now and then I have a "trick shot" in which I take a high ball and wipe across it as hard as I can from 3 to 9. If you do it now then, it screws the opponent because the bounce is very aggressive to the side. Anyway, I did that a few times just to get in the mode of swinging out and then I start swinging out a little more and coming across the ball.

    Realized I had done this before, but never consciously thought about it. It does work in situations where you need a heavier rally ball and pace is coming at you. It works really well.

    If you are playing at a 4.0 level on groundies you can probably play an entire match and not need to utlize this.

    But if you need to turn up the pace another notch, I found this technique produces a really heavy ball that is tough to attack.

    It also takes some serious practice as well so if you want to do it well, prepare to hit the ball machine and call your best hitting partners.
     
  30. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    you have a good point here, imo
    in my club we have a 16 year old who loves to hit a ´modern´forehand with a windshield-wiper finish and open stance. his trademark shot for years.
    he does fine in junior competition but struggles against adults who exploit his forehand with slices and low-paced shots.
    he seems to find it very difficult to adjust his footwork.
    i believe strongly that he should have started out with more neutral stances and practice hitting thru the ball more
     
  31. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    Is the trick shot a topspin shot or slice? I hit my backhand slice like that sometimes, confuses opponents if used sparingly. Maybe it's spiral spin...

    I think the idea "swiping across" forces you to hit the ball far out in front of you, therefore you end up extending through to contact automatically and hitting through the ball as well as across. It also forces you to have a full follow through and also to get in front of the ball... But i learned tennis the late 80/early 90s way. Hitting hard, not loopy, so it's never been a problem for me.

    I can't see the "swiping across" motion benefiting someone who doesn't hit through the ball a lot, or someone who doesn't close the racquet face a little (for topspin). I don't think sidespin on it's own is that troubling, but when added to topspin or backspin (slice/drop shots) it is pretty cool.
     
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    The rally ball much like you describe is mostly what Oscar is addressing in
    much of what you see from him.
     
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    He is back!

    Forecast calls for many fun times.
     
  34. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    This video may shed some light on some of the questions folks have raised, in this and other threads.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmPLkRxn0Ik&feature=youtu.be

    @PowerPlayer: You can see that the pull across is not quite the swipe across that you have described in your post, although I myself sometimes swipe across the ball when the contact is high. The pulling up and across of the hand pretty late in the stroke has the effect of whipping the racquet into the ball, and increases the "through" speed as well as the "up and across" speed - thus it is a composite movement incorporating all the elements.
     
  35. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Hey, welcome back, 5263! I had almost given up on seeing you here! :) I just posted a video that explains things rather well. Don't have much more to say since I've said everything I know in my previous posts.
     
  36. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    5263, welcome back. Never thought I'd say this but I'd rather see OW threads then another Dozu "Can a 4.0 beat Federer hitting only tweener's" thread.
     
  37. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Yep, it is not the swipe at all. It just is a very exaggerated stroke I hit sometimes if I want to crank up the head speed while warming up.
     
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    LoL, pretty funny,
    Thanks :)
     
  39. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    BTW, how is HSCoach?
     
  40. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, is HScoach unbanned as well?

    I'd love to hear the explanation on that one.
     
  41. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Welcome back! Suresh and dozu has been on a ttw rampage. Glad someone with some sense is back.
     
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Amazing coincidence - I was explaining smart targets and the avoidance zone to a player last night! She complained that her shots always seem to go right to the opponent. I actually marked the corners of the avoidance zone with 4 balls and was thinking of HSCoach all the time!
     
  43. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Actually I've been noting what an excellent job you have been doing with this crowd :)
     
  44. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    thanks man.... dozu is off his meds. And sureshs has apparently moved into the same house as Dozu. Im tired. cant keep this up much longer.
     
  45. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    5263, great to see you back.

    Wrt the fh, at this point in my tennis life I have the opposite thing going on. I really focus on always wiping up and across the ball. The through-the-ball part just happens for me. Perhaps it's my grip (almost SW). It's so easy for me to get too much through-the-ball happening and not enough spin, and then the ball starts going long. I need that spin to keep the ball in. And I'm only hitting generally about 2 to 3 feet over the net.

    But I hit pretty flat more most of my tennis life. It's hard to know what effect that had.

    I don't change my stroke for hitting light. It's still up and across. I use the same motion and form as when I'm hitting hard and I just slow down the swing speed and usually go for more spin and more net clearance.
     
  46. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks and good to be back!
    I think most of what you say here is the most common situation. Most players
    that have played awhile tend to get at least ok shoulder turn and pull to the
    ball, which will take care of hitting thru the ball due to the forces involved.
    So most need to be better at the up and across aspect of the swing.
    Folks who are focused on the "thru the ball" concept don't see these players as
    needing work and mostly just see them as needing more practice to keep the
    balls in (or tighter strings etc.. :???:)

    And yes, there are those out there who don't get much or any shoulder turn with
    good pull to the ball. Often these same players will also tend to pull to the side,
    leading with their head and "pull off the ball" as it is called. So yes that happens
    with some self taught modern players.
    But with our instruction...not so much.
    Good modern stroke production highlights pulling the the ball and adjusting the
    amount of shoulder turn largely based on how much power you intend. So you
    get very good shoulder turn and this leads to forces that get the racket head
    strongly thru the ball as it travels up and across. You don't have to teach or
    focus on the "thru aspect", as it is created by a solid pull to the ball.

    That where your comments throw me a bit. You say you slow the swing speed
    and go for more spin. Imo that is not the best way, and I tend to think of
    it as even increasing the swing speed (slightly) when going for more spin,
    along with increasing the up aspect of the swing (not when on the rise though).
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  47. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i know this shot. i do it a few times every session. I don't think it produces what I'd call a heavy ball though. It gives some curve, a nice bounce and I'd say 'average' pace. not enough pace to be called heavy really. but i know exactly what you're talking about. high ball, 3 to 9, swing very fast. it's a fun shot. I just do it when it's been an extended rally and i want to change pace, make the opponent have to think about the bounce, and to get an extra second sec or 2 to restart the rally.
     
  48. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    No I don't either. I should not have mentioned that shot probably.

    The heavy ball is a result of doing the "wegner" finish, which is a normal forehand hit with more racquet head speed and not the trick shot.
     
  49. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    oh. ok.
    but yea the 3-9 shot is fun. everytime i hit it though i'm disappointed at the lack of heaviness because I've swung so hard.
     
  50. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, the fun is in the bounce. I have watched people completely whiff on it.
     

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