The running cost of being a pro

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by martini1, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Anybody who has first hand experience on how much a pro would spend over a year? Somebody was raving about how much Victoria got from the title recently and I just think that barely covers a long list expenses over the season (well assuming one doesn't win a title very other tournament and so forth...)

    A simple run down on cost/expenses:
    Coach - must have some kind of base salary and bonuses
    Trainer - same as above

    Travel expenses, hotel for the team - don't suppose you get all that for free in big tournaments

    Training facilities for the tournament - do they got it for free?

    Racquests - sure, that could be free
    Strings - not sure if they are free...
    Stringer - that's what, $100 per racket? 6-8 per match?
    Gear, shoes, etc - these could be free

    PR, manager, agent - these depends on how well u can get job outside of the court.

    Without winning some title or top 4 finishes in the big ones, how do a pro support all these expenses?? Can somebody share some insights? U can spend 6 figures easy per year!
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
    #1
  2. Leublu tennis

    Leublu tennis Legend

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    I am guessing that talented yougsters get a sponsor who will pick up all the initial costs for a percentage of earnings later on. Others, just struggle along for the fun of it, I suppose.

    There was a thread here by a TW poster who is a pro and was looking for money from other posters. It may have been removed for crass commercialism but maybe its still here somewhere. I think the player's name was Clayton something or something Clayton. There was a discussion there about his running costs, etc.
     
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  3. Nanshiki

    Nanshiki Hall of Fame

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    You don't have to have a coach (and I bet some players split coaches), and every tournament has a trainer so you don't need that either. You just have to pay for their services.

    And stringing labor at small tournaments is closer to like $20 for labor, up to $40 at big tournaments. A lot of pros get free string, but a lot have to pay full price (ie, for luxilon).

    Travel and hotels would be the biggest cost for a low-level pro, although high-level ones get free lodging/food/etc. They might even get free travel.
     
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  4. Rogisbestever

    Rogisbestever Rookie

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    i used to be an agent and look after a crew of players - ranked around 90-150 so playing a mix of tour events and challengers and a global travel plan etc...

    they were fully sponsored for clothing, shoes, rackets and strings etc but no additional cash to help supplement costs. SOME tournamants include a per diem to help players with travel and accommodation costs but not all.
    a tour player of say 110 would be looking roughly around US$80k per year in expenses etc
     
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  5. Skppr05

    Skppr05 Semi-Pro

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    Yep, at even smaller events the strings are cheaper too. When I had a personal coach he played in a tournament in Ecuador and got a full luxilon string job for like $7.00
     
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  6. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    $60 only? That's a lot cheaper than I thought (like what P1 would charge per racket). 6-8 rackets per match and 5-6 matches that adds up pretty quickly...

    I think if you want to break in the top 150 having a coach dedicated to your game is very important. Top coaches demands top pay, although the family member coach thing has been popular to many successful players.

    Trainer is a little different from the tourny doctor type. You need to have a trainer to program your daily work out and diet. When to eat, work out, and rest. What to do to tune up your physic just before the tourny etc. More importantly how to play/not play with injuries etc. Even Federer would need a personal trainer when he doesn't have a coach.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
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  7. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    racquets and strings and clothing are all expenses paid.

    travel is the big thing. you pay alot for travel, guessing in excess of 20k per year in flights. (dont forget points and flyer miles)

    maybe another 20k per year in hotel expenses.

    with an additional 10k in food expenses (which i dont count since you gotta eat no matter what you do for a living)

    i can tell you that in my company (traveling show sales) we are in a different part of the US every fri-sunday 36 weeks out of 52 per year.


    i will tell you that my hotel bill is rarely more than 250.00 for the weekend so i pay around 9k per year in hotel, except i dont actually. i only pay for 3 out of every 4 nights i stay due to the points plan Which all major hotel chains have now. yes even the waltdorf in NY falls under one of those plans. so i actually pay just over 6400.oo a year in hotel.


    so with flights, that should be previously booked so to avoid higher counter prices, hotels, and the possible coach % im guessing a top 150 but not top30 would pay around 55-75k a year in total expenses.


    and if you have a coach its almost certainly % of winnings based.
     
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  8. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    That's a lot of money to burn if one doesn't win beyond 3rd or 4th round...
     
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  9. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    trainers are advisors who rarely travel with athletes. they come up witht he plans but are not involved in making sure they are carried out on a day to day basis, unless your a top player and can afford it of course.
     
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  10. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    which is why challengers are used to provide the money to pursue the majors.
     
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  11. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    That's true. The half good pros are hitting a hump. They can't afford that yet but all the top guys do. It may not make a difference if you are 18 though.
     
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  12. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    Don't forget about other things associated with a "regular" job:

    - Medical & Dental insurance
    - Vision insurance
    - Life insurance with a clause/rider for travel since you travel a lot
    - last but not least, Uncle Sam. You have to pay taxes. Guess what tomorrow is? :)

    r,
    eagle
     
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  13. bjk

    bjk Hall of Fame

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    I've looked at this, and the only way to make money as a pro is to be consistently ranked no lower than 100 . . . that way you can gain direct entry into the majors, and that's about $80,000 right there. Otherwise you're not making a living. It's hard to believe but Vince Spadea is almost at $5 million for his career. Unfortunately he never mentions money in his book, I think a book about "how to make a living on the pro tour" would be interesting . . .
     
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  14. Nanshiki

    Nanshiki Hall of Fame

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    Not every player has a *personal* trainer though. Fed can afford a personal *everything* whereas I'm sure a lot of pros go without certain support staff, whereas some probably split the cost.

    IIRC Sampras payed $40 in labor, and apparently he spent $50,000 a year on stringing. But that's a guy who cuts out several jobs of VS after a day, every day.
     
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  15. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Those on the other hand I think are not huge expenses. Once you turn pro there must be some group discounts from organizations you are in.

    Well, everybody pay taxes, but all the charities u do also get u some nice write offs. U don't pay tax when u are in the red, do u? :)
     
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  16. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

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    Brian Vahely (sp?) wrote a small blurb about the cost of being a pro for Tennis Magazine a few years back. If someone has that issue, it's got a pretty good description of how much it costs to play professionally.
     
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  17. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Makes u think it must be different for Pete once he retired all these string job must seem kind of expensive for him :lol: I mean he still play with friends at home and he has to play with one week old strings, yikes! :)
     
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  18. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    I would buy one. Interesting to know how a lot of pros make a living in the out of top 50 positions.
     
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  19. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    Unless it is a huge organization that has negotiated a great deal with the insurance company(ies), it is still a pretty penny. Probably not a problem for those who make real money but for those who are simply scraping by, then it is a huge deal. Pay for daily expenses or insurance. Hmmmmmm

    If you are in consistently in the red, then it's probably time to hang it up and get a regular job. :)

    r,
    eagle
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
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  20. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    most likely they are part of the insurance company used by their racquet sponsor


    in pro motocross your sponsor covers 100% insurance, disability, accidental death and travel insurance.
     
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  21. JW10S

    JW10S Hall of Fame

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    You're looking at roughly $70,000 minimum to play a full calender of events. It only goes up from there--some of the top players will incur expenses well into 7 figures. That's why you'll hear from players ranked outside the top 100 say their goals are to get into the 4 Grand Slams. With 1st round losers getting $14-$17 grand, getting into all 4 Slams will come close to paying for the year.
     
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  22. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    A lot of top 50 players have sponsors.

    How about the 100-200? 500s? 900s? They are so obscure, potential sponsors probably have never even heard of them. :)

    So, full or even partial coverage by sponsors for most tour players? I doubt it.

    r,
    eagle
     
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  23. JW10S

    JW10S Hall of Fame

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    ^^^that's why they have unions. The ATP and WTA are essentially the player's unions and offer variuos insurance options.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
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  24. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    We need input from a pro who posts here. Can't remember his name. There was a thread here on TW with him posting his vids.

    He needs to provide his insight. All other posts like most would be mere speculation including mine. :)

    I'd be curious to know how folks not in the top 500 can compete without going hungry or buried in credit card debts.

    r,
    eagle
     
    #24
  25. toptalent

    toptalent Rookie

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    From what I know many of the professional players (at least nowadays) come from reasonably wealthy families. It's very expensive to support a child through his junior years, before he even turns a pro. There is a reason people often mention tennis with golf, the rich men's sport.
     
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  26. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    you might be surprised how many pros are sponsored, not by tv ads or magazine fold outs.

    but just by being given their racquet and clothing. at a slam, virtually any player has a chance to be televised somewhere. even in qualifiers. and their is local tv time for many challengers and 250 events.
     
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  27. oy vey

    oy vey Semi-Pro

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    If you are Andy Murray everything is paid for.
     
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  28. Marc The Shark

    Marc The Shark New User

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    I haven't read everything...
    But Hotel and transportation (driving from hotel to tournament or around town) is provided by the tournament...
    And about the stringing.. Luxilon was charging $30 per racket at the Sony Ericsson Open
     
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  29. Marc The Shark

    Marc The Shark New User

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    o and a good way to get around the whole tax thing, one could move to Monaco.. (No income tax ;)
     
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  30. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    Hi deltox,

    Being given a racquet and clothing is inconsequential compared to the cost of day to day living expenses including but not limited to hotel accommodations, taxi fares and tips, air fares, food, personal supplies, recreation, etc.

    Also, having one's face or name plastered on the screen doesn't translate to money in one's pocket. Whether they capitalize on it is another matter altogether.

    Also, I'm talking about actually making a living as a pro where you are in the black vs. endlessly scraping by hoping you'd have enough change to get to the next tourney.

    Again, just my 2 cents.

    All posts are mere speculation unless a touring pro or credible source provides solid substantiated facts.

    r,
    eagle
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
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  31. Nanshiki

    Nanshiki Hall of Fame

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    FWIW, Ryler De Heart got somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 (don't remember exactly) for all the Geico/etc patches that were added to his shirt when he played Nadal... and he got those deals literally hours before going on court.

    (and he actually could have gotten more)

    So, they DO get paid quite a lot for appearing on TV. Although the big names get HUGE amounts just for showing up, although technically it's for doing kid's events, clinics, press conferences, etc...

    OTOH, he just lost in the first round of a Futures that he was the #1 seed in... (but he's recovering from an injury)
     
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  32. Nanshiki

    Nanshiki Hall of Fame

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    The top players ride around in private jets, and have many, many support people on their payrolls... private trainers, private stringers, coaches (don't even want to know what a top 10 coach gets paid...), hitting partners, pilots, etc.

    Also, don't forgot that a lot of the slam's DECENT prize money in their qualifying tournaments, especially the US Open's qualie; the price money is over $1,000,000.
     
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  33. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    Here's a 2007 article on a wta player forced to get out of the tour:

    http://www.sportingo.com/tennis/a4183_life-professional-tennis-player

    Here's an interesting tally of pro players' prize winnings as of April 2009:

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/...om/tennis/en/media/rankings/Current_Prize.pdf

    Check out the prize winnings of multiple folks tied at rank 1466 thus far. At the rate they're going, they might not even make $1000 this year. I doubt they get any substantial sponsorship either. Definitely in the red. :(

    r,
    eagle
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
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  34. vmosrafa08

    vmosrafa08 Semi-Pro

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    But pros probably don't pay for their racquets, strings, and clothes because they are sponsored. The coaches, trainers, and hotel rooms definitely play a factor, but the coach probably gets paid if the player starts winning, and doesn't take all of their earnings... With sponsorship, and tournament prizes, I don't feel bad for tennis pros.
     
    #34
  35. Nanshiki

    Nanshiki Hall of Fame

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    A lot pay for their own strings. Full price for some brands actually (Luxilon). The demand for strings is so high that only the very, very top pros get *free* string. Andy Roddick was one of the first players to actually get *paid* to use a certain string. Before that, most of them just got free stuff.

    Racquets and clothes are a minor expense. You could theoretically use 10 racquets for over a year, and have fewer sets of clothing, and only spend maybe $1500 on all of that, with pro discounts.

    At the moment, transportation is by far the biggest expense... because you can always stay at a crappy hotel, but airfare will cost several times that much.
     
    #35
  36. naylor

    naylor Semi-Pro

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    It depends where you are...

    In Europe, a lot of younger pros play satellite events they can drive around to.

    It's no different from the way European golf pros started in the old days - two or three shared a campervan and drove around from tournament to tournament, and they went together so they sorted out each other's games when something went slightly wrong. They would have had their "coach" back at their home club, but he didn't travel with the player. And potentially, the itinerary would be such that they could stop "at home" for a couple of days between tournaments, to get a quick fix.

    I played in the Mallorca Open (golf) pro-am about 12 years ago. It was early in the season, so most of the top golfers were still "on holiday" or they were playing Sun City down in South Africa or in the Far East, so the field was mainly made up of younger pros that - later in the season - would be relegated to play second-tier events. The German pro we played with was sponsored by Audi - so effectively his European travel costs were only "petrol money" - and one of the tournament sponsors was a hotel company (so, accommodation taken care of).

    Going back to tennis, in Germany (and probably elsewhere in Europe) there are also big interclub leagues - when players get a decent match fee, plus travel + accommodation. Also, the sons of an ex-pro friend of mine are testing the water - when they're off for a couple of weeks, they go to a tennis ranch (in Europe, Florida, California) and do some coaching, in exchange for board and some cash, and there's usually enough senior coaches there to iron out niggles in their games, and other young touring pros to do some intensive practising in free time.

    I guess the tough time is when you get to around 150-200 playing "for fun" like that, and you decide to make the step-change to crack the top 100. If you're lucky, you'll be on the radar screen of your national association, so they'll give you some extra cash for expenses, you'll be dedicated extra personal coaching resources at the national training centre (possibly, with a coach travelling with you at least part of the time) and at the same centre you'll also get the benefit of a trainer, nutritionist, etc. etc.
     
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  37. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Tennis in the US is not a rich men's sport. It may be expensive to send the kid to some big training facilities but once the kid is considered to be talented a lot of people are willing to chip in to support a future star. That usually happens when they are still young. By 14-15 if the kid can't produce some results, yes, it would be expensive for the parents to continue to get expensive coaching and have the kid playing tournaments.

    A lot of the high schools offer pretty good tennis programs as well. College is a different thing. Most top players should be playing in tour before they hit 20.

    It all depends on how good the kid is. For everybody else a mere playing in the courts is cheap (except grass of course). If u just burn your money into joining all kinds of tournament and fancy coaches then it is u that makes it expensive.
     
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  38. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    I think by far the 100-200 players have it rough the most. They are doing full time to train and needs to crack into the top 100 fast. And they need to be a rising star of some kind. If somebody is 25 and still going up and down the ladder within 100-200 his/her career would be over very soon.

    Those 500~ or 900~ players are just testing the waters (young) or just happy to be in tour (older).

    On sponsorship. It really depends. I bet the Harrison brothers are already getting something more than free rackets and discounted strings. Corporate sponsors plan seeds early in the game and bet on future stars as many as they could find. All it takes is just one player (like Nadal) to help you sell millions of rackets (or whatever they are selling). Signing a star when they are top players is very costly and often already too late.
     
    #38
  39. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    There is an article on the March 2009 Tennis Magazine on Ryler deHeart who was a part of the 2003 Univ of Illinois NCAA college championship team who decided to turn pro. Article by L. Jon Wertheim on page 20 of said issue.

    As written, with a good result, he might come out even. But most times his winnings barely covered stringing fees and gas money.

    He later had to undergo arthroscopic surgery for a torn cartilage on his shoulder. Guess what? No insurance coverage from what some folks call the "union". He was lucky his mom had him under her insurance policy. Note that he is 25 yrs of age and can't get insurance on his own. That debunks the idea that you get it from the "union"

    Article says also that one hears of players bankrolling their dreams ---- and medical expenses -- on credit cards.

    I still contend that unless you are in the upper echelon, the odds are against you to break even, let alone make money.

    r,
    eagle
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
    #39
  40. madmanfool

    madmanfool Semi-Pro

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    Olivier Rochus:

    "In maart heb ik 2.000 euro verloren. Ik reis elke week, maar in Florida verdiende ik amper 900 dollar", luidt het.

    translation: I lost 2000 euro's in march. I travel every week, but in Florida i made just 900 dollars.
     
    #40
  41. VillaVilla

    VillaVilla New User

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    Does anyone have any info on all the different tournaments outside of the ATP 250, 500, 1000, Grand Slams?

    People talk about Challengers, Satellites. What are these and how do they affect ATP rankings etc. (if they do?)
     
    #41
  42. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    Only Top100 have the ATP insurance benefit, the other 2000 never get sick or injured. I find this really unfair as the ATP makes a lot of money, at least they should have some basic coverage.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
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  43. jmverdugo

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    I think there arent any more satellites, just challengers and futures.
     
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  44. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    lol then consider the other 2000 players are really part time / trying out under the ATP game. Seriously, only the inner circle makes the money I suppose.

    Anyhow, I also think it is not fair for the ATP not even giving them some kind of basic coverage...
     
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  45. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    Below is the link to the ATP Tour history and allusion to its charter.

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/tennis/en/aboutatp/history.asp

    No mention of medical or dental benefits to pro tennis players ... at least nothing on that webpage. The webpage primarily emphasizes the organization mission to promote the game, ranking system, parity, and of course sponsorships. It still comes down to money. :)

    r,
    eagle
     
    #45
  46. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    Well, that doesn't mean they don't help in covering the players. The website is for the general public and they don't need to list every single details there. Insurance is a must in pro sports. It would be rather stupid for such a well organized tour to let players play without insurance, and more so if these group of players do not get group deals. Insurance companies sponsor tournaments all the time, u know...
     
    #46
  47. deltox

    deltox Hall of Fame

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    most top athletes have their body parts covered for mega bucks with loyds of london


    J Lo has her ass insured for 50 mil. geez


    i know from a personal friend that motocross racers are covered by their sponsors, i cannot see how racquet companies are not covering their pro players the same way.. it only makes sense.
     
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  48. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    Again, I'm addressing primarily the lowly players in the 500, 1000s rankings and not in the top 100.

    If Ryler DeHeart who got to a career high ranking of 208 didn't even have insurance by the union and couldn't afford to get it for himself, then it is highly unlikely folks ranked much lower and end up spending more than they win can afford it or anything else. :(

    One can easily romanticize the idea of being a pro player. Sounds like a fun "job" to have. Heck, I'd love to do so also if I had the talent. :) But the realist in me tells me there's a lot more to it than simply showing up and hoping that some saviour of a sponsor will pay my way from one tourney to the next along with everything else. If you're not one of the top tier players who can afford the expenses through prize winnings, appearances, and sponsorships, it's an uphill battle.

    2 cents.

    r,
    eagle
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
    #48
  49. babolat15

    babolat15 Hall of Fame

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    bobby reynolds spent 100 grand last year
     
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  50. master935

    master935 Rookie

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    I'm not sure where you guys get your information, but I read(on the actuall ITF website) that the top tier tournaments are required to provide rooms for the players. travel is all up to the players(of course), and I would assume that if you're NOT in the top 100 you wouldn't be playing a lot of the big tournaments but trying to make a name for yourself in the smaller ones(where you win more)
     
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