The true Wimbledon 'G.O.A.T'...

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by War Safin!, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. War Safin!

    War Safin! Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,247
    ...accolade cannot be handed over to Roger Federer....even if he wins 5 more back-to-back titles.

    That accolade needs to be applied to Pete Sampras and then Bjorn Borg.
    Why?
    'Cos they propsered on a true grass-court surface against true, multi-faceted opposition (i.e. big servers, baseliners, serve-n-volleyers, fellow Slam-winners, etc)

    'Nuff said.



    Disclaimer: I am NOT a Federer troll or anti-Federer poster
     
    #1
  2. fps

    fps Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    5,437
    Location:
    Brighton, England
    You can't blame Federer for the surfaces he plays on. Fed's played plenty of big servers and beaten them, and beat a slam winner and crazy baseliner in the final this year. The idea of a "greatest of all time" is dumb in the first place, but discounting fed from contention because of things beyond his control is dumber!
     
    #2
  3. 8PAQ

    8PAQ Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,002

    What if 19 year old Fed were to beat 29 year old defending Wimbledon champion Sampras? Say in 2001 when the grass was still very fast, and what if Fed had to SV on almost every point to do it? Oh wait a minute, he did do that.

    'Nuff said.
     
    #3
  4. chaognosis

    chaognosis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Messages:
    694
    Location:
    Chicago
    Or perhaps the true "Wimbledon G.O.A.T." was Laurie Doherty, who, along with his brother Reggie, became tennis's first great international star. Laurie won more combined singles (five) and doubles (eight) titles than any other man, and he was also probably the greatest of all British players -- though some critics would argue in favor of Fred Perry. Before the inevitable arguments begin about the "weak competition" and "inferior athleticism" of the Doherty era, be assured that "Little Do" faced some formidable foes: most famously his brother (though the two hated playing against one another), but also Arthur Gore, Frank Riseley, and a young Norman Brookes.
     
    #4
  5. War Safin!

    War Safin! Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,247
    Ah-ha.....but hang on 8PAQ - did he S&V exclusively? I don't remember - let me go back and watch the match and I'll get back to you.

    Secondly, while I'm here...was the grass really still that fast in 2001? If so, it would imply that serve-n-volleyers were still comfortable at the net.
    But a cursory glance at the lack of rough patches between the net and the service-line during the final would suggest that, No, they werent that comfortable, hence, the rye-grass was being used that year.
    Furthermore, if Federer's S&V-ing was that good, he wouldn't have been dropped by Tim Henman in the next round.
    Conclusion: Federer played out-of-his skin against Sampras that afternoon (same as Safin did at the US Open in 2000)

    Third, Federer did beat Sampras on grass at Wimbledon. Once.
    So what?
    Sampras got beaten a week earlier by Lleyton Hewitt - on the faster turf at Queens.
    For the SECOND year running, I might add.
    Conclusion: the Sampras aura of invincibility on grass was diminshed a year before Federer came along.
     
    #5
  6. fps

    fps Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    5,437
    Location:
    Brighton, England
     
    #6
  7. War Safin!

    War Safin! Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,247
    Oh yes I do! ;)

    I have the 7 Slams on true, non-rye-grass and a further 5 the decade before to back up my thread claim.
    :-D
     
    #7
  8. harleywilson

    harleywilson Rookie

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    234
    Location:
    Georgia
    I don't see why there is a debate. Sampras is right now with Borg and Federer tied for second
     
    #8
  9. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,046
    Looking forward to the day the dust settles in this thread.......Can't wait to wear my Willie Renshaw jersey to the club this weekend.

    Incidentally, he won six in a row....back before electricity.
     
    #9
  10. War Safin!

    War Safin! Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,247
    I'm sure the level of playing, physical atheticism and competitiveness was amazingly high back then too.
     
    #10
  11. fps

    fps Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    5,437
    Location:
    Brighton, England
    If they play on rye grass for the next 100 years then people will say THAT'S the real grass, not what Sampras was playing on. It's still grass! Why are so many people obsessed with trying to prove something utterly unprovable, and stick one guy at the top and crap on everyone else? It's just wrong-headed! They're both great and you can't conclusively call on better. BUT when they DID play, once, Federer won. If they had played ten times maybe Sampras would have won the majority, maybe Fed, but there's no evidence.
     
    #11
  12. Rybo

    Rybo New User

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    56
    ding ding ding
     
    #12
  13. RedWeb

    RedWeb Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    730
    Willie Walkover

    Lets not forget that ole Willie had to only play one match to win the title as the former champion only had to play in the finals match the next year. Man, this board would have fun "crushing" that setup seeing what they said about Fed after he got one walkover.
     
    #13
  14. chaognosis

    chaognosis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2005
    Messages:
    694
    Location:
    Chicago
    Tony Wilding, one of the greatest pre-WWI players, famously spoke out against the challenge-round format. As the defending champion, Wilding felt that he was put at a disadvantage, because he wasn't allowed to get any competitive match play under his belt before facing the winner of the all-comers final. I think it can be argued either way.
     
    #14
  15. MoFed

    MoFed Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    692
    Location:
    Victorville, CA
    It is ridiculous to try to minimize Roger's accomplishments by saying his competition is not versitile enough.

    big server=Andy Roddick
    baseliners=Lleyton Hewitt
    serve-n-volleyers=Tim Henman
    Former Champions=Rafael Nadal, Pete Sampras, Lleyton Hewitt, Andy Roddick, Marat Safin

    Roger didn't slow down the courts at Wimby, the organizers did. To think that he would honestly want the courts slowed is crazy. I bet he'd prefer to have the courts speeded up. He came awfully close to losing Sunday on this slower court, which probably wouldn't have happened on the faster court.
     
    #15
  16. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,949
    It takes more than 1 great match be a champion on the real grass. Too bad he couldnt win the next match versus Henman.

     
    #16
  17. fps

    fps Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    5,437
    Location:
    Brighton, England
    So what now then, Henman's better than both of them? This thread's going dumber and dumberer...
     
    #17
  18. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    14,074
    Fed in 2001 was still finding himself, he was just hanging around.2004 was when the Fed express train rolled on and noticed his talent at striking the ball.
     
    #18
  19. Heavy Metal Tennis Star

    Heavy Metal Tennis Star Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,162
    Location:
    U.S. And A.
    yeah ofcourse, boohoo, keep denying federer, he is the goat...ass!
     
    #19
  20. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    The answers to both questions is Yes. Fed S & V on nearly every first serve, and many second serves. And yes, the court was still fast.
     
    #20
  21. 8PAQ

    8PAQ Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,002
    I think it is pretty safe to assume that since 19 year old Fed was able to successfully SV on fast grass therefore a much more mentally tough and well rounded prime Federer would do even better on the same surface. Maybe he would not be winning Wimbledon without dropping more than one set but I think he would still be winning them.

    Also if we watch 2003 Wimbledon you will note that he was SV quite often. Even thou the grass was already slower. He lost only one set in 2003.
     
    #21
  22. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    14,074
    The grass in 2003 playes a little quicker then the crap i saw on sunday.There wasnt so many crazy high bounces.
     
    #22
  23. superstition

    superstition Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,035
    Navratilova, for the ladies' game. For the men, it's more difficult to say. I don't think the number of titles is the only measurement that matters. And, comparing a player like Federer who wins on slow high bouncing grass with a big graphite racquet and poly/gut hybrid stringing to players like Tilden and Laver is a lot like comparing apples and oranges. The first year that Wimbledon was played with 100% rye, two baseliners were in the final (Nalbandian and Hewitt, I recall).
     
    #23
  24. 8PAQ

    8PAQ Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,002
    Yep and Fed destroyed in straights two big servers in the semi and in the final.

    Now Fed has even better ground game and mental side. I am sure he would do just fine against 90s players.
     
    #24
  25. The Gorilla

    The Gorilla Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,495
    fed seved and volleyed on all his first serves and almost none of his second serves that day.
     
    #25
  26. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    AFAIK, they changed the type of grass(reye) in 2001.
    Major changes were done from 2001 and finsished in 2003.
    I personally do not see difference since 2003 although I can not
    be 100% sure since I never played on Wimbledon myself. :)

    Federer S&Ved most of his 1st serves but did NOT S&Ved most of his 2nd serves.
    In 2001, many of baseliners did S&Ved on their 1st serves on grass anyway.
    As far as I recall, Federer always played 90% baseline game even on carpet since he debuted(in 1998?)
    which is kinda odd if he was good at S&V.


    Federer already told that he realized he S&Ved whenever he got panic.
    That's when he realized he can win safely on grass with his superior baseline game.
    The timing of changes in WImbledon between 2001-2003 cetrianly helped him, IMHO.
    See ? If you want Federer type of success, you need some luck.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2007
    #26
  27. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    Wrong. He served and vollyed quite a bit on the second serve.
     
    #27
  28. lolsmash

    lolsmash Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Messages:
    224
    I will post this because I did not read any of the other posts but...


    WIMBLEDON IS STILL WIMBLEDON REGARDLESS OF THE GRASS/SURFACE.

    If they change the surface and make it faster at the US Open every year and someone wins there every year for 10 years straight, then they are the best at US Open because they won 10 straight. What you are saying is that he won't be because someone will have won on a more consistent US Open surface.

    When they say Wimbledon, you think of grass, and then you think that grass is a fast, skidding surface. Well, grass is still grass regardless of how fast it is. It may not play like "true" grass, but it is still grass. Wimbledon is still Wimbledon regardless of how the grass plays or if it changes to another surface.

    A Pure Drive is still a Pure Drive regardless of the paintjob or technology right?
     
    #28
  29. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    14,074
    Thats such bull.The balls bounce too much on this surface, its not suppose to have alot of big bounces.Its also slower unless they where using heavy balls on sunday.
     
    #29
  30. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    Wimbledon initially denied any changes in condition (or no comment).

    And then sometime this year(? was it last year ?) officially admitted they have changed it.

    However, they asserted the speed is same but admitted the bounce
    is different( truer ) explaining how they achived it (extra hardening of
    "clay" layer underneath the grass).
     
    #30
  31. War Safin!

    War Safin! Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,247
    Given the way in which the Wimbledon authorities conduct themselves these days, it's safe to say they are 'shady'.
     
    #31
  32. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    My conclusion on what happened since 2001-2003:

    ATP successfully engineered great rivalry like Federer vs Nadal.
    We will see more rivarlies in the near futures (like Borg/McEnroe/Lendl/Connors)
    between a few top players on all slams.

    In the future, the management techniques of ATP will be studied
    in business schools as a successful case just like they study hugely successful
    NBA of 1990's.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2007
    #32
  33. Mad iX

    Mad iX Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    710
    Location:
    Australia 3195
    Ahem, 4-time defending champ. Give Sampras some credit. :p

    If Federer wins 10 Wimbledons ... it would be difficult to not give him the GOAT on grass title. Especially when clay courters are prospering on the high bouncing surface and he's still destroying most of them.
    He just wont be the S&V GOAT, which probably wasn't going to happen anyway.
     
    #33
  34. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,046
    Much as I love my Willie Renshaw jersey, I'm going to have to go with Lottie Dodd. She won five AND has a hip hop song by Slick Rick about her.

    Lottie Doddy.
    Ah Lottie Doddy
    We like to Party
    She don't cause trouble She don't both nobody
    She's just a tennis playa on the mike
    And when she rock upon the mic she rock the mic RIGHT!

    Sorry, Messrs Renshaw, Borg, Sampras and Federer....and Martina, BJK et al. You can't top that kind of street cred.
     
    #34
  35. kaiotic

    kaiotic Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2005
    Messages:
    269
    Pete was one shy of 8 straight. thanks to Richard Krajcick?

    that should put things in persepctive.


    look, Fed may not fare too well against the likes of big Server & volleyers like Rusedski, Goran, Rafter (a sick spin server and a good volleyer), Becker, The Scud (who is no less talented than the top ten today, and can kill you when he's on), Stich....

    we need more S&vers to mix it up.. ATp is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz baseline all day long. WTF!
     
    #35
  36. caulcano

    caulcano Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,637
    We need a GS for the S&V'ers, which Wimbledon was.

    Wimbledon needs to change the surface OR change the balls so they fly faster & bounce less. So
     
    #36
  37. Bassus

    Bassus Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    249


    No, that honor rightly belongs to Sampras as of now because he won 7 Wimbledons. I'm a big Federer fan, but 7 > 5. I'd like to see Federer at least tie Sampras at Wimbledon, but until he does, then Sampras is the greatest champion there.
     
    #37
  38. NadalForever

    NadalForever Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    196
    Federer had a walkover at this year's Wimbledon so he still only has 4 Wimbledons in a row.
     
    #38
  39. Eviscerator

    Eviscerator Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,709
    Location:
    S. Florida
    They had started to slow it down a little for the 2001 tourney, but it was not until the next year that they really slowed it down. Look at who won as a result.
     
    #39
  40. Bassus

    Bassus Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    249

    I take it that's a joke, right?

    Federer has no control over the weather (if he did, then he would have created damp conditions for the French final), or the scheduling of play, or the health of opponents.

    He did catch a break with the Haas walkover, but then again, one could say it left him rusty for the Ferrero match. Nadal was unlucky in having to play so much, but then again, he had easy quarterfinal and semifinal matches. Nadal was pretty much in the final the moment Baghdatis failed to take control of Djokovic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2007
    #40
  41. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    3,476
    Flawed post. Not well thought of at all. Possible disguise ?

    What is true grass court?. I can extend your argument and say that modern racquets are not true racquets. They should use Wood. So sampras should have used wood racquets and win 6 wimbledons.

    Time changes and things change. Thats way of life. One should learn to accept that.

    Sampras and Federer have their place in History. Thinking one is any less than other (at this time) is actually insulting one of the players.
     
    #41
  42. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,333
    Location:
    Malta, Europe
    You're pathetic.
     
    #42
  43. NadalForever

    NadalForever Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    196
    All the Federer fans are pathetic because they are satisfied with Federer winning by a walkover.
     
    #43
  44. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,333
    Location:
    Malta, Europe
    I'm not a fed fan but i can see how pathetic you are, and so can everybody else.
     
    #44
  45. NadalForever

    NadalForever Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    196
    Nice try. You ain't fooling me. You must be a Federer fan.
     
    #45
  46. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,333
    Location:
    Malta, Europe
    i'm not, but i hate trolls.
     
    #46
  47. federerGOAT

    federerGOAT Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    The GOAT should be Federer no doubt. He can serve and volley if he wants to. His serve is just as good as Sampras's and he has better touch at the net. None of the serve and volleyers from the 90s come close to Fed.
     
    #47
  48. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,333
    Location:
    Malta, Europe
    from one extreme to the other.
     
    #48
  49. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    His walkover was vs Tommy Haas, who he hasnt lost to since January 2001 now. So what are you getting at with that?
     
    #49
  50. War Safin!

    War Safin! Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,247
    Okay - maybe I rushed my initial post, but can we agree that 'grass isn't grass' in 2007?
    Playing on grass, by and large, requires speed of foot and ability to serve-n-volley - that's always been the tradition set by guys in the 70s onwards.
    Either using a Donnay Borg Allwood, a Dunlop Maxply Fort..or a Wilson Prostaff.

    So, if all of a sudden (say, the last 5 years or so), this isn't the cae, then by that logic, the guys who win on grass now can't be considered 'true grass-court technicians' cos they are using racquets designed for power-tennis, from the baseline ala clay-court tennis?




    Feel free to pick apart that post. ;-)
     
    #50

Share This Page