The TT Football Club

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Ross K, Aug 10, 2008.

  1. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    AVB has apparently been "bombarding" Willian with text messages since the summer. I wonder what he thinks about this then? :)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/24/willian-chelsea-shakhtar-donetsk?newsfeed=true

    He's a great player, but I don't think he will get his wish. Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Marin, Moses, De Bruyne etc.. It seems like we already have enough in that department.

    The price is near £30 Million I think, that will probably go on a striker or a midfielder, where it's needed. We were actually playing a good away game up until Lampard got injured. Ramires did a good job after moving to the middle, but the 4 attacking players left us too vulnerable against a good team, away from home. I've said it before and i'll say it again, we're probably 2 players short there.
     
  2. SempreSami

    SempreSami Hall of Fame

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    Klopp-meister.
     
  3. Feña14

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    Great to see them doing well, it was a shame to see them fail last year. I wonder if their poor league form has had something to do with their play in Europe, it often turns out like that.

    You looking forward to the game on Sunday? Fletcher and Giggs said some interesting things about it:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lsea-these-days-is-like-facing-Barcelona.html

    It was 3-3 last year, it has the potential to be like that again I think.
     
  4. SempreSami

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    Dortmund's away form has been gash this season, can't believe they're already 12 points behind FC Bottlejob Munchen.

    Surely Hernandez has to start against Chelsea this weekend? He has a tendency to score against them and put in a good performance the other day.
     
  5. Feña14

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    Well they had a bad start last year, the first 7 or so games they weren't great. There is probably still time for them to challenge, but winning is going to be a big ask.

    He could start, they have so many options really. Hernandez, Rooney, Welbeck or van Persie would all cause problems. Contrast that with Chelsea where we only have Torres, who still isn't playing well and is being run into the ground with no backup for him.

    I wonder if they might go with 3 of the forwards, maybe leave Kagawa out as he hasn't been brilliant so far. Rooney could play the Kagawa role, then have Hernandez and van Persie further forward as Welbeck is probably the one who would strike less fear into Chelsea. I also think Rooney would do a better job at dealing with Oscar. So far he's been the one who sticks to the oppositions most creative player and gives them no time on the ball, the way he dealt with Pirlo was fantastic. I think Rooney's energy head-to-head with Oscar would be interesting.
     
  6. PED

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    So true, I crap my pants every time he has to defend. We look like junk ATM, sad after a fairly bright start, we could use Diaby back.

    Wouldn't mind seeing chelsea deal out an @$$ whupping to Utd on Sunday. We have no chance and I'd rather see Chelsea take it as opposed to either of the manchester teams.
     
  7. Feña14

    Feña14 Legend

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    I wish it was the other Manchester team we had at the weekend :)

    As Breaker pointed out, they have been winning, but they aren't looking quite right, for whatever reason. No doubt they will sort it out eventually, but it would of been good to get them at a low point.
     
  8. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    City's defence was wooden last year and remains wooden. There is always a chance that teams will just play round them.
     
  9. Breaker

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    ^ best defence in the league 2 years running, fact.

    this year gone to **** due to 3-5-2 and change in how set pieces are defendeda
     
  10. PED

    PED Legend

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    ^^I'd love to see Brendan Rogers running City.

    Beautiful football combined with an unlimited budget = heaven.
     
  11. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    Best defence? -- must have nothing to do with their defenders, who are wooden. But then they aren't at the same risk of exposure in the Premier Dross...
     
  12. Feña14

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    I don't think the defence is as good as it's made out to be, sure. It's certainly not bad, but I think the midfield protect them very well. The likes of Barry, Toure and De Jong last year did a fantastic job, that and Hart being unbeatable at times.

    I don't think Clichy is that great, Zabaleta, Richards and Lescott are ok. Kompany is a great player who's struggling this year. I'm sure they will get it together in the end.
     
  13. Breaker

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    yes because this makes sense, a team that conceded less goals than anyone two years in a row must be average.

    18 clean sheets 2010/2011 (60 scored, 33 conceded) next best Chelsea with 15 clean sheets and same number conceded

    17 clean sheets 2011/2012 (93 scored, 29 conceded) next best United 20 clean sheets but 33 conceded (ended up costing them the title) and Everton with 12 clean sheets and 40 conceded.

    Also before slagging off the Premier league remember who are current European champions as well as having 3 of the last 7 European champions and multiple finalist appearances in that span as well -- even Spuds made it to the quarterfinal stage, still up there as best league in the world.



    De Jong barely played last year and Yaya is lazy when it comes to tracking back. Scoring 93 and conceding 29 shows the defenders must have had something to do with it. Also I'd take Richards and Clichy over any other full backs in the league though Micah's constant injuries are a concern.
     
  14. Feña14

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    He played 36 games, whenever I saw him play he did a good job of protecting the defence I thought. I think the whole team do in general, right from the front with Tevez chasing around, the two holding players, Toure is a tough man to get past, and even harder to get the ball off.

    I think the way they counter attack also helps the defence, when the opposition are worried about Tevez, Aguero, Silva, Nasri, Toure etc.. that's a help.

    As I said though, the defence is still pretty good. Defending seems to be more about what the rest of the team do these days, over individuals. You see Barcelona playing with sweepers almost, Busquets and Mascherano are in there alot of the time. Spain do something similar and look to defend by not letting the opponents see any of the ball. Then you have Chelsea who won the Champions League with 10 players all fighting to defend as a team.

    Man to man and individual battles, where you saw defenders going one on one with a forward are alot rarer.
     
  15. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    I can see that they can be effective in the domestic league. But you can be wooden and effective here. Some of the back fours in Premiership winning teams have been pretty average. Blackburn comes to mind. I don't think it is a criticism of a team to say that it's midfield covers its defence well. We expect that. And as for the standard of the league, it isn't as good as it was five to ten years ago.
     
  16. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    I should also say, as a United supporter, that our defence is at best average at present. So if City's is close to United's that is not an endorsement.
     
  17. PED

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    I agree to a point, the bottom half of the table is likely worse but the competition for the CL spots is tougher than ever.

    Last year was a battle for us to finish 3rd. Spurs discovered just how strong they can be and look out for Pool as well once Rogers gets them going.

    The tax issue probably stopped alot of players from coming over here but isn't Spain phasing out their top tax loop hole for big earners? That could change things as well.
     
  18. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    Competition is intense for the CL spots -- I agree with you. But my feeling is that the quality has dropped overall. I am not sure that the increased competition for those spots reflects anything more than a decline in quality among the four leading teams. That said I may be particularly influenced by my first game this season. I went to QPR v Everton last weekend. It was a pacy game but the quality was very poor. The idea that a side as poor as Everton could have been in the top four ten years ago seems fanciful. I will be at the Emirates tomorrow so am hoping for an improvement.
     
  19. PED

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    Excellent point :)
     
  20. PureAlph4

    PureAlph4 Semi-Pro

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    My view is that the quality overall through the league is slightly higher. At the very bottom there will always be an abysmal team or two. I think the main increase in quality is within the mid-table sides, who play better football, and can be more competitive than they were 10 years ago. I agree that the increased competition for 4th place is more a reflection of the drop in relative standard of a few of the 'big' teams. At the very top, based on the flow of the league, I would have said that the quality hasn't fallen, but I suppose many results in Europe over the past couple of seasons have started to question that.

    It's interesting, though, how the relative competitiveness of leagues in Europe gradually undulate up and down over time: how in the early PL days it was evident we were tactically behind the Italians and Germans, then Spain rose to prominence along with England, while Italy fell away a little then returned, and compared to the last decade it has just started to look a little that the English clubs were stuttering a bit (obviously Chelsea won, but there has been none of the sense of English domination of late, as opposed to several examples of technical and tactical outclassings).

    Yeah - that is happening in Spain, but Real and Barca are so far ahead financially of all the competition in Europe (obviously due to rigging the domestic system in favour of promoting two national heavyweights, at the expense of the rest) that they won't struggle to pay top wages.

    In terms of international competitiveness in the transfer market, the combination of the impending tax rises for Spanish clubs to absorb, coupled with the PL's new TV deal will reinforce the PL's ability to attract top talent over the coming years. Obviously the top clubs around the world financed by benefactors will continue to spend huge amounts, but the average PL team should ever increasingly be able to bring in better talent than the average Spanish or Italian side.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  21. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    I don't get to see enough of the mid-table teams live to be able to say. They tend to show up on highlights programmes. When they play well you see a lot of them. When they are poor the highlights tend to be short.
     
  22. Ross K

    Ross K Legend

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    Yes, puzzling... just why is it that Mancini has such a useless record when it comes to the Champions League?
     
  23. Breaker

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    Slow buildup
    only width comes from full backs
    doesn't like pacy players so teams can pressure high up the pitch with little threat of counterattack most of the time.

    the 3-5-2 adds width and helps create counters but the squad hasn't adjusted to it yet, also a fit and on song Silva would help immensely with our possession game, Nasri can play the role well occasionally but doesn't have the cutting edge and vision Silva provides.
     
  24. Feña14

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    I'm not really sure why he's so obsessed with it? All the changing of formations and partners could be one of the reasons why Kompany has looked poor so far.

    Even if it did work, it doesn't seem like something that will make a huge difference anyway. It seems like a lot of work, with big risks, for very little reward (if any).
     
  25. Breaker

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    I'm not sure, honestly I think it could directly have to do with his poor European record since his normal tactics haven't really worked at Inter nor City in Europe, even in two tries at Europa league we didn't even get as far as Hughes did with a far weaker squad. With quite a few available managers who have good Champions league pedigree (Pep the most notable) it's important that at the very least the performances improve or he could find himself being replaced in the same manner he was at Inter,.

    I agree that changing centre backs every week has affected Kompany as Lescott and Nastasic are completely different types of defenders, perhaps trying to find what works best before the difficult run of fixtures coming up (Spuds/Chelsea/Everton/United)
     
  26. Feña14

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    His poor record in Europe could well be the reason he's doing it. The 5 at the back works well for Napoli and Juventus, but the top teams who challenge for the Champions League every year all do it with a flat back 4. You pointed out the problems he's had in Europe with Inter and City, it seems to me like he's looking in the wrong places to find a fix.

    In Serie A it is extremely tactical, teams seem to play with a different formation every week, depending on their opponents. I suppose he's a product of that. Ancelotti was the same in some ways, we had the diamond, the Christmas tree, the 4-3-3, the flat 4-4-2, the 4-2-3-1 etc.. Ranieri with his "tinkerman" tactics was the same.

    Sometimes you can change things too much, no wonder the players are uncomfortable. If they aren't totally sure what they're doing they second guess themselves and make poor decisions.
     
  27. Ross K

    Ross K Legend

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    Well, his up to now record in Europe could - and given the humungous sums lavished by Mancini - some might argue should get him the sack.

    You can't help but think a Guardiola, or a Mourinho, an Ancellotti, a Harry Redknapp even LOL - basically, a number of top coaches would make a far better job of it going for it in Europe than Mancini.
     
  28. Feña14

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    I thought Guardiola would be off to Spurs? See if he can save them from relegation after AVB finishes up ;)
     
  29. Ross K

    Ross K Legend

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    Well, although I would have loved it, unfortunately I didn't think he'd ever realistically go to Tottenham last summer. Nor in the future either.

    The jury - and myself - are still out on AVB. Anyway you look at it though, beating Man U away is hardly relegation form.
     
  30. Feña14

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    Yeah, they've been doing fine really. It's far too early to judge him as well, this time last year we were doing well under him but it didn't work out. Maybe this time it will for him.

    I'm sure Spurs will be in Europe again next year, 4th again is a possibility I suppose. Arsenal and Newcastle were challenging last year, but haven't looked too good this year. Liverpool are still short I feel. 4th is there to be had.
     
  31. crosscourt

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    What was Mancini's European record like in Italian management? I don't remember any of his teams winning much but may have forgotten. That said he probably only became a manager there once the high point of their dominance was over.
     
  32. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    I took my son to the Emirates yesterday. He won our bet - I had Arsenal to win handsomely. It wasn't as bad a game as some of the pundits say. Both teams could play well in the first two-thirds of the pitch and both defended well. Arsenal were better in the final third but that isn't saying much although Cesar made some excellent saves. He has fantastic reflexes. QPR have one asset going forward and I would describe that as straight line speed. Beyond that they have almost nothing. Arsenal are a more complicated problem. Leaving aside Wilshere they had too little movement and almost no movement off the ball. Far too often they allowed QPR to regroup in front of them without any way of breaking through. The problem that Wenger had yesterday was too many players in the same space. It isn't obvious that Wilshere and Ramsey can play together. Giroux looks lost without someone next to him. Podolski looked lost on the left. Gervinho gave them more reason to push wide when he was introduced because he was quicker. But it wasn't obvious why they wanted to play wide - were they trying to work crosses behind or were they trying to stretch the very quick QPR defence.

    I thought the best player on the pitch was Vermaelen. If I was Mancini I would think about him or someone similar.
     
  33. Feña14

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    How did you like the Emirates? I was certainly a fan, the big leather seats were far better than the cheap plastic ones. Bit of a pain to get to with the tubes, for a new ground I thought it would be a bit better than it was.

    I saw Chelsea hammer them 4-1, a few days after the famous Barcelona semi final 2nd leg, so i've got some good memories.
     
  34. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

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    I like the Emirates because it is very child friendly. If I take my son to QPR or even Chelsea it is less so. And the way in which a big crowd gets in and out is pretty impressive. At the same time the atmosphere isn't a traditional football atmosphere. I don't really miss that but the guys sitting behind me yesterday did. Overall I quite admire what Arsenal have done with things like the anti-racism campaign and the community outreach.

    As for the football, I am in two minds. I can see Wenger's dilemma - spend a fortune or use his nous to produce a successful team. I admire his preference for the latter. But it can make for slightly bloodless entertainment.

    QPR are a long way from having that sort of choice, though in Diakite and Granero they have capable midfield players.
     
  35. NickC

    NickC Professional

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    That was the worst display of refereeing I've ever seen.

    And Liverpool got ripped off. That funny how two opposite cases of on/offside goals were both gotten wrong on the same day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  36. Rafter4ever

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  37. PED

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    Ross described the emirates like going to the theatre, in a good way :)

    Ramsey was quite poor out wide on the left in the front half but looked good holding with Arteta. we really need to resign Walcott, desparately need his pace, we re too ponderous otherwise.

    Chelsea got jobbed today as did Suarez. It appears Mark Clattenburg has joined Webb as another great Utd signing. I was hoping for a tie to close the gap to first but Utd just aren't that good. Feeling much better about facing them next weekend.

    Oscar, Hazard and Mata are simply top notch, what a great set of signings. Really I pressed at how Hazard has settled and he has a strong enough build to deal with the more physical play In the PL.

    I think once Wilshire regains form, he and Cazorla will give teams something to think about, they won't simply be able to mark Cazorla out of the game.
     
  38. Feña14

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    I just sat there smiling when it unfolded, it happens for Man Utd too many times for it to come as a shock.

    I actually feel pretty good about it, we looked great and if we play as well as that, with the same spirit, we will have a great season. If one of our rivals needs an own goal off a defenders back, two sending offs and an offside goal to steal a win, that gives me confidence.
     
  39. NickC

    NickC Professional

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    Sad though isn't it?

    The sport would be so much better as a whole without inept, corrupt referees.
     
  40. Feña14

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    It would indeed, but it was it is. Man Utd getting decisions is part of football, every team knows it going into game, at least we're prepared!

    I see Clattenberg has been caught using racist remarks towards Mikel and Mata, he might aswell of quit after the disaster today as it was, that sounds like the final nail in his coffin.
     
  41. forthegame

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    C'mon guys, you think the referee was paid to make those calls?

    Come on!

    BTW, these things have a way of equalling themselves out over the season.

    Plenty decisions have gone Chelsea's way over the years too.
     
  42. Feña14

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    Nah, I didn't say he was paid at all. He is a bit of a shady character though, he was banned a few years ago, the reasons were never really revealed. They said it was because of his personal life and illegal business actions.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to go out with a bang, he chose one of the biggest games of the season, royally messed up all the decisions, ruined the game, then for a final flourish he decided to racially abuse Mikel and abuse Mata. He called him a "Spanish t***", and sent Torres off? That's pretty much the end for his career you'd of thought. There were 4 Spanish players on the pitch, every game these days seems to have Spanish players in, not to mention black players.

    Can you really see either of them wanting the referee, the impartial rule enforcer to be given charge of a match they are involved in?

    It was professional suicide, whether he meant it or not.
     
  43. PureAlph4

    PureAlph4 Semi-Pro

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    Watched 3 PL matches this weekend, and all three were marred (and the outcome ultimately decided) by very poor officiating. Obviously it's a thankless task (though they are paid generously) and subject to bigoted 'opinions' from many angles, but it just feels as if the officials are too often failing to meet a reasonable standard.

    The Merseyside derby (Andre Marriner): Of course passions will run high in a derby, but the ref seemed to lose control, allowing the game to descend into a state where reckless tackles were flying in all over the pitch. He should have managed this by booking players at the right time, and thus set the limits for what he'd accept. The linesman disallowed Suarez's late winner, with replays illustrating his decision seemed to be based on no more than guesswork (very late flag, probably based on inferring Suarez was offside based upon the ending positions of players). But Suarez should have already been off the park after his clearly intentional and hugely dangerous raking of an opposition player's Achilles.

    Arsenal v QPR (Anthony Taylor): For me this was the quintessential performance of an over-officious referee who doesn't seem to understand football. His 'speciality' seems to be awarding a free kick any time a clean tackle is made, but where the tackler makes even the most incidental contact with the ball carrier (at least he was consistent with this, and for both sides); if this is modern football then we might as well make it a full non-contact sport and stop teaching slide tackling at any level. Apart from this he just came across as a very weak referee, allowing walls to encroach to 6 or 7 yards away for every free kick, and like Marriner failed to establish a framework for what was acceptable and not (inconsistent from minute to minute). Arsenal's winner was also offside, so another result decided by the officials.

    Chelsea v Utd (Mark Clattenburg): As opined earlier, one of the poorest refereeing performances in recent memory. Again, a very difficult matchup to officiate over, but his stance seemed to be to take an activist approach to officiating, being keen to make a decision either way over every little incident, rather than letting the innocuous, indeterminate events go in order to avoid making the game about himself. To me, it looked like he got both yellow cards for simulation wrong, and of course the officiating team failed to spot Hernandez was offside for United's winner. The result may have ended the same anyway with Chelsea down to ten, but I doubt anybody can feel that what was a hugely entertaining heavyweight match was ruined by the officials. Very, very poor.

    -------

    I thought it was interesting, though, that the French journalist Philippe Auclair asked the question following this weekend, "Is the Premier League still about football, or just about narratives related to it, a screen on which to project neuroses and prejudice?" In a seemingly rational world, football is entire irrational. Clubs are companies that fail to follow their accepted purpose of maximising profit. A good deal of the journalism appears to be entirely spurious (as best evidenced by the @footballagent49 Twitter account, where an 18 year old managed to dictate football transfer headlines with carefully judged, but baseless tweets). A fan of one team could wail about injustice having been subject to a certain set of events one week, but then the following week benefit from the same event and yet scream to the hilltops that it is entirely justified. An individual could be horrified by a case of discrimination at their workplace, but were it to involve a leading player at their football team they will subscribe to the most unrealistic interpretation in order to deny any culpability. General understandings about the state of football finance / clubs' finances are established by people who have no background in these matters, and are often entirely wrong. In the bigoted, parochial arena of football tribalism, and I'm as guilty as any, the game seems to be completely willfully ignorant. Football seems to provide the platform for any prejudice that is largely indefensible based on our supposed current social norms to attract a significant interest group to defend it at all costs. It's a bit of escapism from daily life, but I wonder whether it's just an opportunity to let out a bit of stress and immaturity at the end of the week, or as Auclair alludes to is rather a reflection of our inner prejudices.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  44. Dave M

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    Anybody made any racist claims? I hear innapropriate, is that code? Or could he of just sworn at them to go away and called them overpaid *******?
     
  45. SempreSami

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    Chelsea score offside winner in x number of matches:

    "Luck of the game lol"

    Chelsea concede offside winner:

    "WE WUZ ROBBED"

    Also it's fine and dandy to whinge about contact in the Evans challenge but it was so minimal that from where Battenburg was, he's not going to see that as much as Torres throwing himself to the floor using the foot that Evans DIDN'T TOUCH.

    Besides, Chelsea were fortunate to have just the two reds. If a ref from Ligue 1 this season had been in charge, Luiz and Mikel would definitely have been off the pitch as well by virtue of being rubbish.
     
  46. Peters

    Peters Semi-Pro

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    Although the Premier League is entertaining in its own way, I sometimes think it's gone too far away from what football is all about.

    It's starting to resemble pantomime too much these days.
     
  47. Rafter4ever

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    so clattenburg was in a position that he was not able to "see that as much", if thats the case, at a minimal, it should have been a non call.
     
  48. SempreSami

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    Except Torres went down easily. With diving being the agenda of recent weeks, refs are going to clamp down on it. Just like when David Luiz got away with that horror tackle against Stoke, the next week a few reds were dished out for studs up challenges.

    So you could say it's David Luiz's fault.
     
  49. Rafter4ever

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    thats a subjective statement

    torres running at full speed, contact made from evans, most strikers would have fall regardless. and what was he diving for? a 25 yd free kick that their best free kick taker, mata was already on the bench?
     
  50. SempreSami

    SempreSami Hall of Fame

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    Ball had escaped him, Ferdinand was coming across to cover it.
     

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