The TT Football Club

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Ross K, Aug 10, 2008.

  1. Tardigrade

    Tardigrade Professional

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    I don't think Ibra's lack of intensity was the issue, I thought it was because he didn't like Guardiola's tactics. In truth, if Ibra would have adapted, I think he could have had a great career at Barca.




    Barcelona never got figured out, they simply lost some matches they should have won. The only matches they were outplayed were the two legs Bayern played against them. Oh yeah they got outplayed against Arsenal, but just outplayed Arsenal even more in the next leg. Most teams have beaten Barcelona by hoping they don't score and getting a sneaky goal.



    I do fear for Barcelona once Messi and Iniesta leave. Why didn't Halilovic stay at Barca?
     
  2. Tiki-Taka

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    He definitely would have.

    Some of the teams started playing ultra defensive against us, parking the bus as some say. It irritates me when that happens in the league and if later in the season those teams just bend over for Real, disgusting. Chelsea displayed that tactic perfectly in our CL tie in 2011-12 and sneaked a win, though I guess it was justice since we sneaked the previous tie when Iniesta scored that amazing goal in injury time. Bayern were brutal. Real did very well at our stadium in the cup that season as well, beat us 3-1.

    I fear for the times after Messi (he is both an amazing playmaker and goalscorer) much more than after Iniesta. Today's win really impressed me. Controlled the game without him on the pitch. I guess we managed to recover from Xavi's departure. Halilovic couldn't break into our team, was on loan in Gijon and now is in Hamburger SV. There is a buy-back clause in his contract worth 10 million though so he could still return in a few seasons.
     
  3. Tardigrade

    Tardigrade Professional

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    I remember watching a video on Halilovic and Odegaard a few years ago, these two are surely greats of the future.


    You can relax about Messi, he's going nowhere. As for Iniesta, he's still got 'it', which I'm glad, he can still be a force for another three/four seasons just because of his vision and passing ability. This is basically why Barca are genius; Their best players can play as long as someone like Giggs/Maldini due to the fact they don't even need pace to play football (although Giggs did, he's really an exception to the rule).
     
  4. Tiki-Taka

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    I wasn't thinking about him leaving the club soon but his retirement. If he ever returns to Argentina it will be when he gets really old.

    Yes, it definitely helps when your star players apart from being loyal have great longevity as well. Giggs was playing in many different positions over all the years. Striker, winger and I even saw him play center midfielder sometimes in his last years. Kinda preferred Scholes though, he was just unreal.
     
  5. Slice'n'dice

    Slice'n'dice Professional

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    Ok so why did Inter never qualify for the Champions League after that? Up to and including last season. Why were they nowhere near that season until they spent money in January?

    It's no worse than most managers, 4 points off the top, which is how Real Madrid finished the first season with Mourinho so I can't imagine it being too different. Barcelona also beat Real Madrid 5-0 in November that year, so the similarities continue. As I think we have both mentioned though neither the players or fans really wanted Ancelotti to go so Benitez was doomed unless he was about 10 points ahead at that point. Not really much to blame for, just like Benitez having the fans on his back at Chelsea (although they were worse then to be honest), he did a good job there, won them a trophy too, but likewise he wasn't to blame there. Just the more fondly thought of man being got rid of so what could he do?

    Well Di Maria was amazing first few months in general I think having a player like him had people excited for a while, about what they could do with people like him, but yeah lost the first game to Swansea if I remember rightly, so I guess that dampened the early expectations (which there were a fair amount, people were going mad about Van Gael). While Mourinho's made a good start albeit against poor teams the wins are there.

    Well yeah instant success, but he's like an instant coffee, does the job nothing to exciting but bring what you need in the short term, but after a while you think - instant coffee tastes terrible, I want proper coffee. On the other thing - of course Ferguson is one of the best managers ever so it's always going to be unlikely tat someone is as successful as him. But these days there are not many long staying managers, after Arsene Wenger the longest serving Premier League manager is Eddie Howe, who's been there just under 4 years. Boards are less patient in general. Ferguson may not have lasted given his early record in the modern era. But given all this it's all the more important to leave a club in a good state to continue to be successful after leaving as a mark of a good manager.
     
  6. Tardigrade

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    Giggs is the only winger who's balance is comparable to Messi's, no doubts. For me, they were too different to compare. Some of Giggs' goals were Messi class. Most Barcelona fans say Scholes is simply the best midfielder the PL has ever seen. I would have liked to see him play a season at Barca just to say England produced a midfielder worthy of playing for Pep's Barcelona team (probably the highest honour as a midfielder). Most of our midfielders are grossly overrated. They wouldn't even know what to do playing in Barcelona; Scholes would simply fit right in. Maybe the only other British player capable of playing in Barca would have been Carrick; But Busquets is better slightly.
     
  7. Emperor of Belgrade

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    Maybe it's because some players didn't perform crazy good like they did under Mourinho who basically got beyond maximum out of them and also because of several others leaving to other clubs? Surely you can't blame club's sudden drop on a man who guided them to the top. He left them at the top as well. The team suddenly falling after his departure should be a sign that he clearly knew how to do his job there much better than anyone else.

    From what I remember Mou's only problem in the beginning was Barcelona while he dealt with all other opponents. Eventually his El Clasico record ended up being quite even as well. After Ancelotti, Mou was Real's best coach in the last decade or so. Real are the most impatient club so as I said previously yes Rafa shouldn't be blamed much.

    Losing to Swansea, drawing against Burnley and choking a 3-1 lead against Leicester (and it's not the miracle Leicester we are talking about) in the opening 4 games was awful. Those teams aren't something to talk about either to be fair. Di Maria was amazing definitely, sometimes I wonder how beautiful it would have been to still have him here, that would have been an awesome attacking force.

    Yep, only Wenger is a long serving manager and it's pretty much because his ambitions are recently the same as club's ambitions - low. Fans aren't really supporting him anymore are they.
     
  8. Tiki-Taka

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    I guess Giggs was Man United's Messi. :)

    It's not just the fans that applaud Scholes. Xavi called him the best midfielder in the last 20 years, Iniesta called him a living legend, Messi called him an inspiration, phenomenon Ronaldo called him a phenomenon, Ronaldinho expressed his wish to know how to pass like him... And this is just the quotes from our players, I am sure other greats gave greatest compliments to him as well. Him, Xavi and Iniesta in the midfield and Messi would have scored a hat trick or at least a brace in every game and I am not exaggerating.

    English players never seemed to do well abroad. Right now I can't think of any well known Englishman playing outside of the country, Bale being the only British. The recently retired ones I remember are Beckham and Hargreaves.
     
  9. Slice'n'dice

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    Carrick is a poor man's Alonso at best. Good player, but he is nowhere near Busquets' level, no slightly about it.

    Mourinho turned them into demi-gods and then they became normal woeful players after that? Funny how that happens. Leaves Porto and Benfica win the league, leaves Chelsea with Man Utd winning the league, and Chelsea continuing not to win the League until Ancelotti comes on the scene. He leaves Inter and they completely collapse, rally to finish the season well then never qualify for the Champions League again, leaves Chelsea the second time but not before running them into the ground, with them eventually improving to finish 10th. Seems like a pattern to me and given his preference for older experienced players and reluctance with young players the shoe seems to fit.

    The matches you mention weren't exactly terrible results. Drawing with Athletico is not really a bad result. Draws with other good sides, not that much of a problem. Only problem Barcelona, so they won every single game except Barcelona? Didn't think so. Maybe Benitez's el classico record would have improved as well if he'd had more than the one match. Doubtless it would haven given that he is an exceptional tactician.

    Mourinho best Real Madrid coach in the past decade? Maybe, he won a copa del ray, a la liga and a spanish super cup. Bernd Schuster and Fabio Capello though also won a La Liga, Schuster won a Spanish Super Cup as well. So maybe that Copa Del Ray puts him ahead, although he was there for 3 years, those two for a year each. So yeah not clear cut.

    Yeah not as keen on him as they were, he's got a fair amount of support though. Guess it's a case of careful what you wish for grass not being greener etc. He gets them top 4 every season. But I would be inclined to agree they'd be best off without him now. Top manager but it's just gone stale.

    Steve Mcmanaman is the most successful English player to play abroad. He was at Madrid when they were good but it tells you something. Think English players would benefit from playing abroad more, as would the national side, incorporating different footballing cultures into the national side could only be a good thing. Don't know why so few want to, but it has always been the case.

    You might not think you are exaggerating but it wouldn't happen. Who would protect the defence anyway with those? Scholes is great but he's not that great, probably get sent off a fair amount in La Liga with his tackling. Gerrard is the best midfielder England has produced, he had it all and he did it all playing for a worse team. Scholes had some of Man Utd's best ever players alongside him, certainly makes these things easier. Incredible player mind you, just Gerrard was better.
     
  10. Tiki-Taka

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    Yes he was very good. He was playing earlier abroad than the two I mentioned so I left him out.

    Xavi is the best defensive midfielder of them three if that's what you were talking about. However everyone attacked and everyone defended. That is how Pep's Barcelona worked, whether the opponents had the ball or not, they were under pressure every second.

    Scholes IS one of Man United's best players ever. We aren't comparing strikers and discussing who had better service. You are either a great midfielder or you are not. And for me Scholes stands out as clearly the best ever midfielder in England which is amazing considering the league had guys like Gerrard, Lampard, Vieira, Alonso, Keane, Makelele, Fabregas, Yaya and so on...

    Doesn't Gerrard have a richer history with the red cards than Scholes btw?

     
  11. Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

    Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil Legend

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    Chelsea camp will mostly say Lampard.
    Liverpool camp will mostly say Gerrard.
    Rest of the world will mostly say Scholes.
    #ShyGenius
     
  12. Slice'n'dice

    Slice'n'dice Professional

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    You can't just fit people in though to do that, the best teams don't necessarily put all the best players available in the team (unless you are Garth Crooks) as it doesn't make the best team. Possession or not, sometimes teams are going to attack you and you want the players best equipped for that about. Think Barca would be too exposed if they had those three for every game no matter how creative they'd be, and no doubt it would be amazing going forward. Messi's never got one goal every single game with all the players Barcelona have to say that he'd get at least two every game even which wouldn't happen with a composite of all the best midfielder ever is ridiculous.

    No but playing with better players makes players better. Especially a creative midfield player, you'd think a fan of a team like Barcelona would understand that. Movement of other players, the knowledge that they have that sort of ability and movement and the rest of it, it's going to affect the way you play. If you're team-mates aren't going to make the runs you don't play the pass for instance. Scholes did a few things better than Gerrard, but those things were things Gerrard was still fantastic at like passing, Gerrard's energy drive, defensive ability, goalscoring ability, heading was all better. Not to mention his leadership, inspiring his team=mates helping them believe. Scholes was a phenomenal player but Gerrard literally had it all.

    QUOTE="Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil, post: 10597636, member: 741309"]Chelsea camp will mostly say Lampard.
    Liverpool camp will mostly say Gerrard.
    Rest of the world will mostly say Scholes.
    #ShyGenius[/QUOTE]

    That's not true though is it. Plenty will say Scholes plenty will say Gerrard, a few will say Lampard.

    Zidane will say Gerrard, he said Gerrard was the best player in the world full stop. At a time when Ronaldo had just had his season for Man Utd and Messi was already an incredible player. Doubt he knows what he's talking about though he's only one of the greatest players of all time and the current manager of the European Champions.
     
  13. Tardigrade

    Tardigrade Professional

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    Man Utd fans - Scholes is the best
    Liverpool fans - Gerrard is the best
    Chelsea fans - Lampard is the best
    Rest of the world - Scholes is the best


    Gerrard didn't even help Liverpool win a frikkin League title. If he is better then Scholes, he helps them to at least once; Scholes pretty much won us the League in Ferguson's last year.
     
  14. Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

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    Zidane also said Scholes is the closest thing to the complete midfielder, his toughest opponent, the greatest of his generation and that one of his career regrets is that he never got the chance to play with him. When asked how does it feel to be the best midfielder in the world, he said ask Scholes. And this is just from Zidane (as in from one person, not saying he wasn't great, he was absolutely amazing). The other poster mentioned what Barcelona legends think of Paul and there are plenty of other greats of the game that gave him such big compliments.
     
  15. Poisoned Slice

    Poisoned Slice Legend

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    Banging head against a brick wall comes to mind.

    This is nothing like the LVG beginning. Reason to be optimistic because we have the players this time. Back then , with Moyes as well, it was nightmare transfer window. Even the possibility of De Gea leaving last season. Easy to say we wouldn't have won that Hull match last season, but I don't think we would have.

    Good times. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016 at 2:52 AM
  16. Emperor of Belgrade

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    Well imagine if those clubs continued to perform amazing after he left, you would say Mourinho isn't special, look, the new managers are doing the same thing he did. Even if we agree on him squeezing the last bits of energy from players and leaving his successors with nothing, don't forget that you said before that he always went to clubs that had the resources which made it so much easier. Well, the ones who came after him had that too but still nobody outperformed him.

    It's not really because of the Copa Del Rey that I place Mourinho above them. His Real that won La Liga broke the points record, goals record and goal difference record. All of that achieved while competing with Guardiola's Barcelona. He also got them far in the Champions League, before him there was a period of 6 or 7 years where Real didn't reach a single semifinal in the competition. It wasn't enough considering Real wanted that La Decima so much but he did a better job there than most of recent coaches.

    He really is consistent with the top 4 qualification. The fans would want a title challenge though I think. It's been a while since the year of those Invincibles. Can't remember them being in any other title race except 2007-08, with 2013-14 and last season being just minor honorable mentions. They either start choking in March-April or have a very poor start that eliminates them from the race immediately.
     
  17. Poisoned Slice

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    I would have thought somebody was trolling if they put Wenger ahead of Mourinho. That's right, though, just like tennis, it aint all about the h2h. Wenger is good at keeping Arsenal in a stable position, but never in a position to win anything.

    Fairy nuff. I disagree of course.

    And that Aguero elbow reminded me of Brock Lesnar last week. Always be aware of your surroundings. He knew what he was doing. Sinister behavior.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016 at 3:00 AM
  18. Emperor of Belgrade

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    After all, he is a specialist in failure. :D Jose mode off
     
  19. Poisoned Slice

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    Poor Arsene got destroyed once more.

    Wasn't always like that. Back in 1999 Fergie was all ''you should have no problem with Bayern, they are not as good as Arsenal.'' Almost backfired. :D
     
  20. Tiki-Taka

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    Well I don't think Scholes being there would have exposed Barcelona. Teams tried to attack but failed many times and it is not just because of Busquets, it is because of the entire team's approach. Nobody was scoring in every single game but there are guys who had such a ratio (poor choice of words from me in the beginning). Messi at his best is one of them. The best run of his was scoring in 21 consecutive league games, which included all 19 opponents. I doubt whoever holds the record for scoring in consecutive games in England or any other country is close to 21.

    A creative midfield player is the foundation, more than anyone else. Having someone with such quality makes it so much easier for everyone around him to play. Guys in those positions are the most complete players and quite underrated in my opinion, goalscorers usually take most or all the glory.

    Scholes was a bit reckless at times but his passing was unmatched, he was a great goalscorer as well, his heading was fine for a player of his height and making teammates play better was also a very fine quality of his, even in his last years. It's not a coincidence that Man United visibly improved when he came back from retirement and once again started to struggle when he left for good and still do. The team depended on him more than he depended on the team. So far he hasn't been replaced properly despite all the recent investments, and it's no surprise as players like him are extremely rare.
     

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