The USTA 12 and under Junior Development Pathway

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by barringer97, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    EastBay:

    We are doing Little Mo's in NorCal. I think we are playing in the Girls 9's even though my daughter is 8. She has a late birthday.

    We have also decided to go down to LA for a couple of weekends to play their U10, which is Green Dot regulation court.
     
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  2. eastbayliz

    eastbayliz Rookie

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    Great thanks! I would love to hear your feedback on the experience. I never heard about this tourney when I was that age. BUT that would 1986-88! I started playing 10 and Under at eight. I am trying to be open minded about these new changes and not pull the "back when I was playing..." line. But it's tempting.
     
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  3. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Same here barringer, 2 of the kids in our group have end of year birthdays so they will be playing the 9s while 8 at Little Mo. But they have been playing the 12s and have yet to play a kid under 11 so it still will be a better age match.

    I will let you know eastliz. We have a great group of kids from ages 7-12 who meet several times a week for tennis, drills and practice sets. If you guys are ever down in S. FL. do not hesitate to let me know and join the group for a hit.
     
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  4. eastbayliz

    eastbayliz Rookie

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    Hey Barringer-
    Cool! Where you in NorCal? Green Dot regulation court is full court just with Green Balls?
     
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  5. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Correct. We are on the Peninsula.
     
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  6. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    We had a level 5 12s at my club that was regular balls a few weeks ago. Are all 12s supposed to be Green ball?
     
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  7. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Yes. For the NorCal section, starting June 1st, all 12 and under will be Green Dot.

    I'm guessing that this will go nationwide.
     
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  8. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I am curious to hear what you think of this decision by the USTA. The New England junior championships, the sectionals, are held every June when school gets out. Some parts of New England, devestated by Hurricane Sandy, are getting out 2 weeks later this year. The USTA refuses to postpone sectionals: many kids now will be missing it for the first time. High school seniors have to explain to college coaches why they are "ducking" sectionals.
     
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  9. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    That's a tough one. You think the USTA would be a little more flexible regarding the issue and hopefully the college coaches would also understand.
     
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  10. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    there will be green ball competition in 8 and 9 as well, there goes the training tool :)

    http://www.courtsideusa.com/tournaments/403/

    let us know how it goes

    My 7 year old will play his first U12 green ball tomorrow in singles and doubles, no mandate here in NE, many 7,8,9,10,11,12 are playing, there are over 100 players in one tournament, the idea of playing up is out the window, the idea of a mandate is out the window, He blew by orange competition in 6 months, the second he started serving consistently from baseline he went green. He might not last as long as his older brother in green, maybe one year until he turns 8. At 8 he will play regulation and get his lumps for a year until he hangs with the big boys. This is for an advance to elite player less than 5% of the players can do this, less than 1% players will blow though the system even faster but they have dads like TCF and GA and BB not your average dudes. :)
     
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  11. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    How you been Pro Tour??? Im glad to hear your little one is doing so good. My little one has got back tennis crazy now that basketball is over. Hes playing baseball and soccer now but hes still getting his hour a day in.
     
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  12. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    Exactly...

    we should encourage overall growth of participants and retention and not sacrifice them to the alter of so called prodigies.
     
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  13. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Sounds good but not reality. The reality is that most kids dabble in tennis. Does not matter if they learn with orange balls or a good coach using yellow balls. Tennis is just a 2nd or 3rd sport the parents make them try. They dabble, then leave tennis for more social sports soon enough.

    The backbone of the junior tennis system has always been dedicated tennis families, many times generation after generation. They have always used low compression balls of some fashion and for some time to learn, then moved on to 'real tennis' like their older siblings, cousins, parents.

    You can not change reality, and U10 tennis will not change reality. Forcing mandates like Norcal will more likely cause the established tennis families to not be so much into junior tennis anymore.

    The fact is most kids quit tennis once they find that it requires 2 hours by themselves in the hot sun, many times vs a cheater. Its no fun, so they go play team sports instead. That will not change by mandating orange balls be used by 10 year olds.
     
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  14. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    lol. so funny. tennis is such a hard sport for kids to really get into. so true.
     
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  15. BMC9670

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    Hey ProTour, good to reconnect in this strange land they call "tips/instruction"!

    Your lucky that your section still offers choices in 12U. I'm now in Southwest and ALL levels of 12U are green ball. So, my just-turned 11 YO can't play regulation unless be plays up to the 14's.

    I do still think green can be beneficial, but the player has to be coached to play correctly and not rely on the ball to play it safe. When my kid does play green, I make sure he is using good technique, hitting through, working angles, working the point, and going for his shots. I see too many kids floating the ball and pushing, which will hurt them later.

    Still, I'd rather have the lower level tournaments green and higher level tournaments regulation. As it stands now, no choice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
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  16. BMC9670

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    Why can't we do both? There are lots of good players out there as well as beginners. Just offer choices. Not that hard.
     
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  17. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    So before the "invention" of the Orange Ball we were sacrificing younger players to the alter of so called prodigies?
     
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  18. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I think the change comes down to 2 very different camps with two very different goals.

    One camp is about making money. Equipment manufacturers, clubs, camps, etc are most interested in increasing participation, regardless of level. It simply means more consumers - as kids and then as recreational adults. This camp isn't really concerned about what best for development.

    The other camp is about ultimately developing pro players and is most concerned about individual development as well as the competitiveness of US tennis players on the world stage.

    IMO, and unfortunately, the USTA and many teaching pros (not all), fit into both camps. The USTA, although a non-profit, is ultimately participation and money driven. More junior participation turns into more tennis fans that attend pro events and play leagues and tournaments. On the other hand, having US slam winners also accomplishes this. Hence, they are in both camps. There have been times when they have had both - Jimbo/Mac, Pete/Andre, etc along with high recreational participation. Currently, we have no slam winners, so they are going another route to booth participation.

    Many teaching pros are in the same boat. They have to keep their classes and lesson schedules full, regardless of level or how well their charges will do.

    IMO, I don't think we will get an agreement on ONE development path. Opinions differ and the goals of each camp are different.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2013
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  19. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    Seems to me the yellow/green ball initiative is great for the indoor clubs. They can put 8 kids on a court with one pro and charge a lower price per kid. In my local clubs I see heavy participation of younger kids ages 5-10. However, I don't see it producing tournament level players. Local high school teams are lucky to have 2 tournament level players.
     
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  20. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Interesting topic. Orange was good for my son. He played quite a bit of it. Now at 10 he has a good sectional and state ranking in the 12s. If you can blow by the orange competition in 6 months then the competition is not very good. In some areas there are really good players doing a mix of orange ball, green ball, and yellow ball. Everyone takes a different path and they all believe the way they did it was the best. My son's good friend also played a ton of orange. Now at 11 he is ranked in the top 5 in Georgia and the top 50 in the south. Training with orange balls did not seem to hurt him.
     
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  21. TCF

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    But according to the Norcal mandate, which this thread is about, he would not be able to play yellow at his age and he would still be years away from being able to do that. His 11 year old friend would not be ranked # 5 and would instead be still playing low compression balls. That might be enough to turn them off to tennis and on to other sports instead.

    We all agree the low compression balls can be training tools. Its the rigid mandate thats the issue.

    Your own examples show how wrong that mandate is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
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  22. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Agreed! It is a frustrating situation
     
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  23. gameboy

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    I don't see that in the mandate. The mandate just states that you have to excel in the each stage before moving on to the next level. I don't see anything in the mandate that states you HAVE to stay in a particular level until of certain age.

    I see nothing wrong with encouraging kids to go through each stages. If you want to skip steps, you need to go on your own.
     
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  24. TCF

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    Not sure your experience with juniors, but thats a mandate.....2 seasons in team tennis, 6 tournaments at a level, etc.

    Kids get bored at that age. The ones dedicated to tennis practice a ton outside their groups and get better very fast. These dedicated kids are the ones, along with their younger siblings, who keep junior tennis going.

    Kids willing to spend hours in the hot sun busting it are pretty independent. Forcing them to play 2 seasons of team tennis and hit red, orange, green balls for years is going to lead them to bail on tennis.

    Remember, its not just one ball phase. A younger sibling would have to go through red then orange then green then yellow....while they have been playing yellow with their older bro since age 5-6. Its a terrible mandate.

    Also, they have to win 2 tournaments at a level which is silly. Some sections you have 1-2 superstars that you do not beat. The kid finishing 3-4-5th may be amazing....but because they do not win the tournament they do not advance. Simply ridiculous. Sends a wrong message.

    The issues with junior tennis is the cheating, poorly organized tournaments, and the fact tennis requires working hard, alone, in the sun. It has nothing to do with the type of ball used.

    The fact is the kids with bad technique have bad technique no matter what ball they are trained with.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
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  25. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Any mandate will be bad for many kids. Many mandates are bad for a majority of the kids.
    In either case, it is not optimal to mandate uniformity.
     
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  26. TCF

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    I would think anyone who looks at this can see its all about money. The equipment manufacturers and USTA.

    Common sense....a parent and/or coach would have to buy the red balls then the orange then the green in order to prepare the kids for the mandated tournaments and levels. They would also have to purchase the various size racquets to compete. They ONLY way to get used to playing with the vastly different bouncing balls is to practice with them for a time.

    Then they have to win tournaments at each level....again money, trying to find tournaments where the top dominant players are not there. More fees.

    In the past a parent and/or coach just grabs some old flat yellow balls with less bounce to make it easier on a kid, gives the kid an old racquet, and teaches them tennis. Pretty much no cost at all.

    Its a money grab hiding behind improving youth tennis.
     
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  27. gameboy

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    I think teaching kids that you need to win to advance seems like a right message to send.

    I don't get your complaint. On one hand, you are complaining that top kids have to play too much in "lower level" league to advance, and then you complain that there are too many "superstar" kids for your kid to advance.

    Those "superstar" kids seem to be doing fine. What makes your kid so special that they need to skip that level of development and learning how to win?
     
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  28. TCF

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    Do you have kids and follow junior tennis? If so, you would get it. How can every single kid in every single section be required to win a tournament to advance? Thats lunacy. So a kid who consistently finishes 2nd or 3rd should stay with orange balls? Some kids go their entire lives without finishing first in a tournament yet are amazing players. Thats the way tennis works in juniors. Even excellent players may always find themselves 2nd or 3rd.

    Give me a break. This is a silly discussion because anyone around junior tennis sees it is a money grab and has zero to do with the kids. Thats why from the beginning all the proponents were backed by the equipment companies.

    Mandates like this will destroy junior tennis. Junior tennis has problems, cheating and poor organization. Its issues have zero to do with what balls a kid trains with.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
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  29. Vilgan

    Vilgan New User

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    As someone with no skin in the game (no kids yet), the colored ball tournaments seem like a good potential tool for regular kids. The mandate though especially after looking at the NorCal tournament list seems crazy. All beginner ball? Meh.

    Seems like a better mandate is that all 12 and under or 10 and under junior tournaments must offer a colored ball bracket in addition to the standard yellow ball stuff. That way you are making sure those developing at a more "standard" pace can have fun and those who want the real thing can have that as well. Not being able to play with real balls until 12s or 14s just seems crazy.
     
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  30. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    That's about the only mandate I can agree with. The USTA should mandate to the sections that they must offer a CHOICE to players.
     
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  31. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Spot on post TCF. This is not baseball, where 9 kids "win" and 9 Kids "lose". in a 32 draw, using this logic, there are 31 losers and 1 winner.

    "Winning" in junior tennis(and arguably all tennis) for most kids means going deeper into the tournament than you were expected to. There are lots of tournaments I can "let" my daughter "win" with if I wanted to, but I would rather enter her in a tournament or age group where she has challenging matches rather than beat up on some little girls to collect some hardware.

    So much hypocrisy it wants to make me puke. You hear TAUT "green ball" is about emphasizing proper technique and not about competitiveness and winning and losing, but to leave TUAT you have to win, regardless of your technique. Guess what, what I am seeing is that sometimes the kid that wins the TUAT greenball tournament are the kids that has mastered the push and the forehand slice(man...that green ball just dies and rolls when you slice it right..unfreaking returnable..and yes there are 9 year olds who have figured this out..look for drop shot masters in about 10 years in the pros) and not not the key fundamentals. These 10U masters are also not necessarily ready for the speed of the game at the next level. They thrive on the slow pace. But enough. Point is, different ball, different game. Just becuase you have won at the 10U level with green ball doesn't mean you are ready for 12U with yellow ball, in fact, it may be the opposite. Some kids may be successful ONLY becuase they are playing with a green ball, and will be less successful at the next level, while kids who are held back becuase they have not won a tournament with the green ball would be more successful with the yellow ball, but are held back becuase of the mandate(s).

    SMH.

    So the kid who is actually trying to put topspin on his forehand, comes in second to the green ball pusher and slicer, has to stay down, while the pusher moves up. Kid who moves up get clobbered by actual Tennis Players, EOS.

    Hey TCF, how you been Brah ?
     
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  32. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Hi alohajrtennis, great to read your post. I agree with you.

    Not sure if our section is the only one, but the issues in junior tennis seem to be growing and have nothing to do with the balls kids were trained with.

    The cheating and gamesmanship are growing at an alarming pace. I guess thats the reality show generation coming of age. I have been attending lots of tournaments in the 12s and 14s lately, most with no rooting interest.

    Every other match is now a constant battle of gamesmanship. Every other point is followed by bad calls or "are you sure" even on balls 5 feet out. Parents with constant banter to distract the opponents. And many of the kids just seem like they would rather be any other place but playing that match. It also seems like half the girls are trained to be ultra mean, stare at the opponents, brush by them on changeovers, make nasty comments to get them off their games. These matches are 2 hour mental warfare and many of the kids would rather just bail and go play other sports.

    In my opinion junior tennis is deteriorating rapidly. And TAUT is going to do nothing to stop the real issues driving kids from the sport.

    The USTA has a real problem and needs to get its head out of the sand. Maybe a network of local high school or college kids who work the tournaments in exchange for course credits....something has to change. Every other court needed a ref during the past few tournaments I have attended and that number is simply not available. The self policing of jr tennis matches that worked okay in the past is not going to work with the coming generations of kids.

    I have watched kid after kid after kid be bullied and cheated at these tournaments. And not just a point here or there....constant barrage of stuff. Why on earth would they stay in junior tennis long term??
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
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  33. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Dang TCF it sounds rough in south Florida.:)
     
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  34. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Great post, spot on.
     
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  35. TCF

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    Ga, visitors do tell me the cheating and gamesmanship are way worse down here compared to other sections. We have a lot of issues, wealthy kids who feel entitled, along with the parents. I see mediocre kids winning matches they have no business winning.

    We also are getting a huge influx of Russian girls. There are 2 academies in the area where they bring over Russian kids and train them 6 hours a day. We were invited in for several sessions. The girls especially practice cheating at the practice matches!!

    Its a nightmare....the combination of the Russian girls and their parents who sit there and coach in Russian, and the entitled rich girls. You can go through the field any given tournament and count about half the girls who flagrantly cheat on every other point. A tournament director told me that it has gotten much worse the past year and a half.

    But on the bright side, half the girls in the section are the exact opposite, very honest and good sports.
     
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  36. Tennis_Bum

    Tennis_Bum Professional

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    Hi TCF,

    About more than 1 year ago, you recommended that I get a Wilson BLX Pro 26 - junior racket for my son and I did. My son really enjoys tennis now and wants to play tournament, which is great. The problem is that I am now looking for the same Wilson BLX Pro 26 - junior racket but can't find it. I am writing to you to see if your daughter still uses that same racket. If she outgrew that racket, would you sell it to me so that my son will have a back-up racket for tournament matches. I just can't find it anywhere and I don't want to test other rackets right now because the racket is balanced and pretty soft on the arm for him right now. Thanks
     
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  37. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I've now been to many 12s in two sections (moved) and don't see much cheating or gamesmanship....yet. Maybe it is worse in your section or maybe I've just gotten lucky. I see mistakes on calls for sure, but can tell the difference.

    One thing that does bother me though, is when a kid loses and doesn't show for the consolation round or playoff. Ran into this last weekend and looked up the kid's record...sure enough, skips out after all losses.
     
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  38. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    my little one who just turned 7 almost beat a 12 1/2 year old kid twice his size who won the tournament. He had one win and was hanging with two 11 year olds in the U12 using green. He was hitting big and running down the green balls covering the whole court. Now if it were NEW yellow balls he would not hit two balls in a row and would lose very quickly. I have not seen a 7 year old cover a whole court with NEW regulation balls, they have no business being there. Maybe at 8 but not at 7.

    Glad your little one is doing great, I would not let him do baseball though.


    you need to move to NE :) Agree my older son 10 will not play green anymore too many pushers

    I guess the USTA made a mistake with orange at U10. It should be U6 red U8 orange and U10 green with no mandate. U12's can be mixed green (no points) if you want ranking points then regulation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
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  39. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    As for cheating, I have seen my share of cheating, BUT At the Ivan Lendl tennis center in CT (yes Ivan Lendl does support TAUTS) there are two refs at each court. NEVER have I seen cheating. I approached the tournament director (who is in the guinness world record for longest rally) and asked how is it possible (affordable) to have two adults on 8 courts for over three hours straight. He said Lendl would not have it any other way. So I guess he is paying for those hired help. At our academy I know we could not be able to do this ($30 indoor fee) , it is simply not profitable, you end up losing money to babysit 7-10 year olds. The USTA should offer incentives or the price to play these tournaments will go up to $50 not the lower $25.

    Oh another thing that Ivan Lendl does at his TUATS tournaments is that everyone gets a trophy, everyone starts at 1-1, no one loses 6-0 :oops:, so there you have it.:) Is he softening up and dumbing down the game ?:shock: or is he creating more winners and bringing more players?:idea: From the several orange tournaments we have attended, there were more than 60 players, the highest in NE and the best orange players I have ever seen in NE all play out of there. We might do one orange at his center but i doubt my 7 year old wants to do it. He is already talking smack that he almost won a U12 green ball tournament.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
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  40. TCF

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    Yeah, it sounds like our cheating problem is unlike any other section. Its an interesting section in S. FL. On the one hand the depth of the talent is amazing. You can go to any BG 12 or 14 tournament and see kids who are great players and great competitors. 3-4 kids in each one will amaze you.

    But we also have become an arms race in cheating. 2 communities in the area were purchased by Russians. Picture multiple Har Tru courts, surrounded by apartments. Each apartment houses a family. Kids play several hours in the morning, then online school, then play more house in the evening. Every day. And in these hotbeds the cheating is practiced by many of them.

    Combine all of these players flooding the section, along with the wealthy kids and parents who want to steal wins if possible, and its a nightmare.

    One local park tournament director told me that for 15 years he would get about 20 kids show up for his biannual tournaments. This year 58 kids signed up, many Russian. He was overwhelmed, had only himself and 1 official, and the cheating was on almost every court.

    This is the new normal down here.
     
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  41. TCF

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    Lendl is a good business man. Sounds like he knows what many American tennis parents and kids wants....early competition, early success as most kids can handle the orange balls, everyone wins a trophy.

    I think it is a good way to bring more kids into tennis. But sooner or later they will face brutal competition, 6-0 loses, kids who have been busting after yellow balls since age 5, full courts, hours out in the hot sun. How many will stick with tennis once that reality presents itself is the question.
     
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  42. ga tennis

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    Guys my academy situation didnt work out. The people that own the facility would not sell it to us. Looks like gods plan was for me to stay in GA. Its great to be talking to you guys again.
     
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  43. ga tennis

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    I agree Lendl hasnt developed ANYONE!!!!It always amazes me how people see a name of some x pro who has an academy and think that he knows how to develop players. Im not saying you Pro-Tour because you know the game. My 7 year old plays full court with yellow balls and he does have trouble covering the whole court but thats what he needs in his development.You want kids to struggle right outside of their comfort zone thats how they go further faster!!
     
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  44. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    sorry to hear that but I think the tennis gods want it this way for you.
     
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  45. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    Well Lendl did offer one of Heaths girls a full scholarship at age 10 so he does see talent and wants to do something. Maybe he did not develop Murray but he did help him win GS, even if it was just 1% what was needed.

    The yellow balls you and I were hitting were used and closer to NEW Dunlop green dot than NEW yellow balls. Why not practice with new yellow balls all the time and have these 10 year old girls struggle more with keeping a rally is my suggestion. I agree you want the kids to struggle more but not to a point where they can not even hit two ball rally. When my 10 year old was 7.5 we did not have colored balls, the old system was still in place. I remember his first USTA at 7.5 using NEW yellow balls against an older seasoned 10.5 year old. Poor kid just sat there getting aced and winners picking his nose. He had one rally and walked off the court crying and wanting to quit tennis. It was my fault that I did not realize how fast NEW yellow balls were compared to what we were using at practice (flat regulation balls). Now compare that to my second son who is 7.5 who almost won his first U12 tournament using green. He is ridding on cloud heaven and thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread until he faces reality which is to cover full court NEW YELLOW balls. My second son is going to be the better player. My first son steps in on rise and hits (more like tap) above his head closer to an eastern grip, the balls were so fast, that is what he had to do just to get to the ball. OTOH my second son hits leverage based semi with topspin with massive racquet head speed. I am not saying the different balls have something to do with it but I have two sons , the first was caught in the middle of this mess and the second is zipping through TAUTS who is clearly the better player. Dunno GA,,,,, you and I made so many mistakes with our first born kids that our second born are going to be better, or they might quit altogether, who knows.......
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
    #95
  46. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    the flip side how many kids quit because at age 5 they could not hit two ball rally with NEW REGULATION BALLS . five year olds have no business using a Jr. frame with NEW regulation balls. it is cruel and boarder line abuse. Put them in a full frame and they can not even swing never mind hitting any ball. IF these 5 year old are hitting used flat regulation balls which most of these places are using then IMO they are no different than NEW GREEM DOTS. Yes I know there is a slight difference in weight but the bounce is slow and low just like NEW GREEN DOT.

    The transition from green to regulation is not easy, it takes some time. Usually by age 9 for elite ( less than 1%) players should be at regulation but for advance ( 5%) players I see them playing green at age 10.

    I never seen a 5 year old playing tennis in the hot sun for an hour. Maybe they exist in FL and GA but in NE I have not. We play indoors for 8 months :) bring your kids up north we play outdoors in 40-50 degrees for hours
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
    #96
  47. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Hey pro-tour i just ordered the PLAY MATE GENIE with the IPLAYMATE. I couldnt afford the lift like Heath has but hopefully i will have it by Christmas. Im glad to hear about your little one. Do you think its posssible that the little one is doing better than the older one because you know alot more now than you did back when you were developing your older sons game? I cant wait for you to see my little girl play now she has gone to another level.She is still having some bad results but her weapons are second to none of the girls in our section.
     
    #97
  48. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Hi. We gave that racquet to her friend. She uses a 27 inch Wilson version now and loves it.
     
    #98
  49. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Ga....we will be in Norcross August 9th for the Little Mo. Are you guys close to there?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
    #99
  50. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Were about an hour and a half away but we will come up and see you guys. We might be in Memphis that weekend if were not we will be there.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013

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