The USTA 12 and under Junior Development Pathway

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by barringer97, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I use TAUT to threaten with. When my 7 year old isn't doing it right I say o.k I guess we can put you in a TAUT tournament and he quickly refocuses on playing the right way. There is no way I would let my kid play that mess!!
     
  2. TCF

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    Ha, I like that idea. Either play right or back to the orange balls!
     
  3. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I think it's a possibility, that's why they are "testing" it in a couple of sections.
     
  4. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Dont worry about the mess the USTA does. Just train hard! We skipped the 10s because of that TAUT crap. Best thing we could have done. If they do this mess with the 12s we will play the 14s.It really doesnt matter anymore to me because when my little girl is 13 she will play 18s. Dont get caught up in the NOW like i once did train for the big picture.
     
  5. ga tennis

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    Unless she turns 13 and goes boy crazy and says damn tennis. :)
     
  6. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    False Information Alert...

    Sections choose their pathway. Just because NorCal and Texas junior section committees strongly support a ROG pathway to development from 12u does not mean the USTA is designating these sections as test sections.
     
  7. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    or injury...

    from planning a pathway 5 years beyond her physical age.
     
  8. ga tennis

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    Your right could get injured :(
     
  9. gameboy

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    Attitudes on these junior threads make me vary weary of exposing my daughter to the junior circuit. I will be happy to just have her play other girls at my club. The sense of entitlement is just unbelievable.
     
  10. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I agree, but I'm guessing there is some encouragement to push these balls from USTA.
     
  11. ga tennis

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    That's probably a good idea.:)
     
  12. BMC9670

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    I'd suggest trying it and seeing how your section is for yourself. I think there are a lot of over zealous parents on here (we are on a tennis forum after all) who are determined that their kid is going pro and think every other parent is an idiot whose kid has no chance. Don't worry about them.

    Personally, I've met mostly great people with good perspective on junior tennis. My son is playing in the 12s and is having a good time. And I don't run across a lot of cheating or bad sportsmanship. In fact when I compare it to little league or pop warner or basketball, it's very tame.

    Sure, there are some crazy parents out there and some entitled kids who are just, well... a-holes. Don't let a few bad apples scare you off.
     
  13. ga tennis

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    I guess you are talking about me. I have never acted as if i thought other parents were idiots and their kid has no chance.I dont see myself as entitled i just know what we have gone through. My daughter has been playing since she could walk. At 7 she was playing tournaments with regulation balls and rackets. She trains hard everyday and it was a slap in the face when the USTA said hey all 10 and under tournaments will be played on a small court with soft balls. That was taking 10 steps back in our case so they told us to play up and we did. Now my daughter is 11 and i saw that they were thinking of making all 12s green dot. That would be a huge mistake but if they do ohh well we play the 14s. I dont see that as being entitled. My daughter works hard everyday so lets punish her and say hey we wanna slow down your development and make you play green dot???
     
  14. BMC9670

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    ^^^ My post responding to gameboy doesn't mention colored balls at all. It's about attitudes and how people act in the juniors. Not talking about anyone in particular
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  15. TCF

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    BMC, in the big picture I must accept the good with the bad down here. Even though there are the dinkers and cheaters, there is also some amazing depth of good players. At least 3-4 of the kids in both the B12s and G12s in most tournaments are flat out great little players. And as they move into the 14s, the dinkers lessen and the matches are fantastic.

    We get players visiting from other sections all the time and they are shocked by the depth of talent. Even though I complain about the mess these tournaments can be, I would rather be here in regards to long term development.
     
  16. mom10s

    mom10s New User

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  17. TCF

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    So the old days of getting an old light racquet, a parent collecting some old flat balls from around some local courts to teach their kid, and learning tennis for pretty much free on a local court are gone.

    Now the same parents will have to buy different racquet lengths, and enough of the different types of balls along the way, and somehow mark that local court with the right dimensions....before they can advance through each stage.

    So why will today's over scheduled parents and kids even bother and not just let the kid play soccer instead?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  18. ga tennis

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    TCF what days did u say you will be in Norcross?
     
  19. TCF

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    August 9-11 for Little Mo Regional at LifeTime Fitness.
     
  20. barringer97

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  21. TCF

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    Looks like they have exceptions if a kid has played already in U12s yellow. That sounds like the key if you have a talented 8-10 year old. Get them into a few U12s before it hits. This one says if a kid has 20 points they are exempt I think. Thats not hard to do.
     
  22. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Yes, but what about my 3 year old!

    I don't want to deal with this nonsense.
     
  23. TennisCoachIN

    TennisCoachIN Rookie

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    We in Mid west and thank goodness my 9 year old has plenty of points to be grandfathered in. I knew it was a matter of time.
     
  24. topspinrj

    topspinrj New User

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    I cannot stand forced rules especially combined with now the mandates for shorter sets for 10u (4 game sets). What a waste of money so that my daughter can be ranked in the 10u. I have seen a lot of girls in the top 50 with just .500 or under records, who just play every week. I have three daughters, and I am struggling with what to do with my just turned 8 year old, who has an academy that does green dot for her but where she plays leagues pushes the TAUT.
     
  25. BMC9670

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    Again, varies from section to section. I moved from Middle States, which had no green ball at all when I left, to Southwest, which last year used green in the lower level 12s and regulation ball in the higher levels (sectional designated and closed). This year, all 12U levels are green - no regular ball to speak of. Next door in SoCal, 12s are using regulation.

    My point is that there is no consistency from section to section, so how does this work toward national rankings? For example, kids in 12U Southwest can get national points for designated tournaments, all green dot, while in SoCal, kids get national points with regulation. When they play nationals, its with regulation. It hasn't affected me as my kid is not playing at the national level, but that doesn't seem right to me. It's completely inconsistent.
     
  26. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    So, my plan, as of right now, is to play the U12 Novice tourneys in NorCal (green dot). She can't hang with the U12 Open, this might give her a shot.

    I freaking hate, hate the Orange ball.

    It looks like I am not alone, judging from the other Novice players in our next tourney, lots of these kids were playing in the Orange U10.
     
  27. MarTennis

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    CiCi Bellis...

    is not representative of the whole.
     
  28. MarTennis

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    Wrong, Wrong, Wrong

    By June 1st you must notify NorCal whether your child is opting out of the Pathway. Post June 1st it is Pathway, then matriculation by achievement or age to yellow ball 12 to 18 play. You can be 3 to 12 and opt into old format, must do by June 1st.
     
  29. MarTennis

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    Then American kids are lost...

    I find this to be not credible. The rest of the world can do this, produced proportionally more players. The world plays the game better and there are no global pitchforks over modified teaching formats. To TCF, the ITF has expanded it to adults.
     
  30. MarTennis

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    A good athlete and ball striker can adapt to any ball, ROG, yellow, whiffle.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  31. TCF

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    Please explain that the "world plays the game better" has anything to do with using ROG balls? I have watched the Spanish coaches training kids, the Russians, the French, Rick Macci, Nick Saviano. At no time did I ever see any kid exhibiting tennis talent using orange balls at age 9 and green balls at age 11.

    We are not saying those low compression balls do not serve a purpose for beginners. The mandate is what is wrong.

    The world playing better tennis has many causes....the better athletes with less choices than in the US, more discipline, more hunger to be great, role models of current top pros, and on and on. ROG ball mandates are not what produced any of the great players in tennis history, nor any of the current top ITF juniors.

    If the goal is to make tennis simple for the masses, then yeah, allow all ages to play with orange balls. But that resembles ping pong as much as it does regular tennis.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  32. MarTennis

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    Hate?

    If the level is hate it may be time to reassess the whole thing for yourself and fam or play up.
     
  33. MarTennis

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    I would love to explain. With dominance comes influence. Our dominance in the game is near over and so is our influence over how the game progresses, from where tourneys are played, to the rules and to the teaching methodologies. Your anecdotal experiences do not mean that many kids are not becoming highly proficient with the ROG methodology. You claim that you have observed other professionals excel without ROG. The two circumstances are not mutually exclusive. ROG as methodology for teaching children is relatively new, if not the equipment. One should not expect champions at this stage. The question is whether you are willing to bank that the game will not continue to grow globally because of ROG, as well as, will the standard of global play diminish as the ITF rule takes hold over years and decades. I will throw my anecdotal statement out also. I too have seen Evolve9, Belguim Tennis, Tennis Canada, Wayne Elderton, Butch Staples create proficient well rounded young players with ROG, who should have little to no trouble continuing to matriculate their skills into higher levels of play, including the yellow ball.

    I will grant your reason for US play compared to the world as it still feeds my contention that those who dominate set the rules going forward. In simplicity one can discover elegance.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  34. BMC9670

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    This debate always comes back to the mandate. Use ROG, don't use ROG, use a combination, its all good... use what fits your philosophy and player. However, the competition mandate is the issue most people have and it's not even implemented uniformly or consistently. It's a moving target.

    My son is a perfect case of why it's bad. I taught him strokes with orange balls, which was great, but within 1 year, he had moved on. But at 8, he could only compete using orange in USTA tournaments. I would have liked green at that stage, but it didn't exist. 10u was orange, 12u was regulation. Then at 10, when he was ready for 12u regulation, they changed it to green. So now he has to play green or play 14s! He is advanced, but not an elite player. Frustrating.

    There are already multiple levels of tournaments in each section. Why not make the lower levels colored balls and the higher levels regulation? Players should be able to play what they are ready for without having to play kids 3-4 years older.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  35. TCF

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    Players can be produced using ROG or regular balls. In my experience down here kids quit tennis no matter how they learned, it for various reasons. The G12s and 14s is deeper than the G16s because most girls quit tennis for any number of reasons as they age.

    Competitive tennis using yellow balls is lonely, hot, and a lot of work. Kids quit because of that, or they would rather play more social sports. Kids do not quit tennis because a well trained and fun coach did not use red balls when they were 8. Once tennis becomes real and hard and lonely, kids will quit, whether they used red or yellow balls as kids. Nothing will change that.

    I think you are making the wrong point. Tennis IS hard, so if you want to 'grow the game' then allow all ages to use orange balls and small courts. Why stop at any age? It makes the game simple. Allow adult leagues to use orange balls if they want to. Thats great, separate that from junior competitive tennis and we can agree with you.

    The players who dominate tennis....top 10 players are all the casual fans even know...they are super talents who were likely playing yellow balls by age 7-8 and playing it well.

    So the fact a top 20 player, showing huge talent at age 7, using yellow balls from age 7, happens to be from a country whose federation pushes ROG because they get paid to by the equipment manufacturers, does not correlate at all.

    The top 20 talents are not going to be playing with green balls at age 11, never have, never needed to, never will need to. Goodness on every court around here there are talented 7-8-9-10 year olds killing it on full courts with yellow balls. Its that way around the world. Those talents will just bypass the junior mandates and find other ways to compete until the 12s if need be. They will not use orange and green balls.

    Its funny when you think about it. The kids likely to need the full ROG mandate are not that talented and not that into tennis and will likely quit anyway when they get older. The true talents who will populate the top 20 will bypass the system. So its a total waste of time...UNLESS you are going to allow them to use orange or green balls as adults league players too.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  36. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    There is no "old format" though. If you want to play yellow, you have to play 14's.

    You can't sign up for yellow and play the 12's or 10's. If you are 7 and want to play yellow, you're stuck.
     
  37. barringer97

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    Also, supposedly it was pushed back to next year.
     
  38. barringer97

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    Yes, we are. My daughter is 8, we are playing the 12's.

    I also plan on going to SoCal and playing their U10 green dot tourneys.
     
  39. Tennishacker

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    Just off the top of my head, Martina Hingis won the Wimbledon juniors when she was 12 yrs old, Tracy Austin won her first pro tournament at 14.

    I'm sure I've missed many more examples, but under these new rules/mandates, would they of become great champions?
     
  40. doctor dennis

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    I've not gone through this whole thread but this has been the case in the UK for years now albeit our age ranges are different.
    Red - 8u
    Orange - 8-9
    Green - 9-10
    After this its adult ball.
    Personally I really like the set up but I can see why lots of parents don't.
    It will be interesting to see how the guys and girls who went through this system match up with the kids who didn't go through this system when they meet up in yellow ball.
     
  41. BMC9670

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    This is the way it is here in Southwest as well. Some top 12s are playing 14s, but there is too great a physical difference for a 10 year old, who is advanced but not elite, to play up that far.
     
  42. TCF

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    They are matching up down here in S. FL. You can tell by a kids USTA record if they played ROG ball tournaments prior to the G12s/B12s.

    Its still a big court, hot sun, and lots of high deep topspin....no matter what ball they were trained on. One of my 8 year old players who plays the G12s played a former orange/green baller in a recent G12 and crushed her 6-0, 6-0. The other girl had no clue how to handle high deep topspin to her backhand. But in the next round my student got smoked by an older and seasoned yellow ball player.

    This mandate will not change anything. 3 universal truths remain. 1. Proper coaching produces solid players no matter what ball is used. 2. when you play the 12s or 14s yellow ball you better be able to hang in the hot sun for hours and handle high, deep topspin. 3. Some kids will bust it after yellow balls on a big court, and some will not, no matter what type balls they used as little kids.

    These supposedly all court games these orange ballers are supposed to develop do nothing when they face a seasoned yellow baller smacking high deep topspin all day long.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  43. MarTennis

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    No sure I understand...

    My family is in Richmond. My son is turned 11 in March. He has been playing the 12s since March of last year. It is all yellow ball in the Challengers and Opens. As I recall you are in NorCal also. We'll be at Little Mo in Stockton. Let's grab a coffee and have a sitdown. You obviously are passionate, which is your number one asset as a parent. I'm Marty, the dad with the dreadlocks and garish Nike warmup jacket.
     
  44. BMC9670

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    This is a reasonable "play up" situation. If you we're in my section, he'd have to play 14s to use yellow balls. No yellow at all in the 12s. Not even at the sectional closed level.

    The mandate has resulted in less choices, and the implementation of it across sections is being done poorly and inconsistently.
     
  45. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Sounds good Marty.

    From my understanding talking with Summer and Amy, there will no longer be yellow ball tournaments for U12, only green dot. All yellow will be 14's.

    Also, I believe that every kid that is U12 is in the "pathway." The ones that are grandfathered in are just allowed to choose where to start from.

    It looks like they did push back the deadline:

    To determine your child's level in the 12 and Under Junior Development Pathway she or he will first need to be a USTA Member. Once a player becomes a USTA Member they can choose their level to compete in until August 31, 2013. As of September 1, 2013 all players will compete in the level they chose, or will enter the Pathway based on their age. If you would like to determine your level, click on one of the bubbles listed below.

    See you in a couple of weeks.
     
  46. MarTennis

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    I look forward to meeting. I think our sections Little Mo is going to be a blast, well attended and highly competitive. A large contingent from the Bareis/Ferreira academy will compete. As for the pathway, I do not think all 12U will be green ball. Please see excerpt below:

    You will move from level 1 to playing with a Yellow ball (Challenger level) once you have played 1 season of junior team tennis, won 2 tournaments, and have placed 1st to 4th in a Sectional Championships.
    If you haven’t played in the events in level 3, 2, or 1 and turn 13 you will automatically move into 14 and under Yellow ball competitions.

    This indicates (to me at least) that Challenger Level will have 12 U yellow ball competition. I acknowledge that skipping the NorCal pathway and not being grandfathered in by history of yellow ball competition means you must wait til 13 to compete in yellow ball in NorCal.
     
  47. MarTennis

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    I hear you...


    ...I love the green ball. It would not have been a big deal. I would be a weekend voice at tournaments supporting the green ball. Perhaps I would support other coaches and parents that wanted to moderate rule to up to 11 years old.
     
  48. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Just looked at the weather, it's going to be hot, at least 100.

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/635/15/12andUnderTennisRatingsFlyer4-30-13.pdf

    I don't know, reading the chart, it tells me that 13 year olds will be in the same level as the person that moves from level 1 to playing with a Yellow ball (Challenger level) once you have played 1 season of junior team tennis, won 2 tournaments, and have placed 1st to 4th in a Sectional Championships..

    13 year olds can't play in 12 and under challengers, so, from my reasoning, there will be no 12 and under yellow ball tourneys.
     
  49. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I also like the green ball a lot...I just think the Orange is pure horse****. I don't think Orange is even good with instructing.

    I think U10 should be green and just get rid of the Orange. Red makes sense for U* (beginners), Orange almost is a stop gap between Red and Green.
     
  50. TCF

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    I agree with you. Just keep it simple. U10 green dots, U12 yellow balls. And allow younger kids to play which ever they want. If an 8-9 year old wants to play the U12 yellows, fine. If they get smoked, thats between them and their parents.
     

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