Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by soyizgood, Feb 2, 2009.
Maybe it can be useful if you do exactly the opposite of what he recommends?
For a while she did play like the number 1 player in the world, she won 2 Tournaments and made another 2 finals right after becoming the number 1 player. She may not have won a slam but in the immediate weeks after she at least was playing like a top player unlike the person everyone said was rightfully number 1 who was struggling to get past people ranked below number 50 in some tournaments. Serena could have kept her from it had she played slightly better between the Australian and the French Open, its not Safina's fault She had a good clay season while Serena well....umm...didn't. Its also not her fault that Serena didn't play much after the Australian whether she was hurt or not and its not her Fault Serena couldn't get it back right away. Serena wasn't proving herself to be better then Safina at the time, so Safina derserved it
As for her performance at the Australian....Well ok I didn't see the match. But she drew Kim Cljsters...arguably the worst possible 1st round match anyone in the tournament could have gotten. She got double dageled, so she can't have played well, but seriously, Kim in the hottest player on the tour right now and I don't expect anyone wants to play her. Safina got slapped in the face by some bad luck. Had she drawn someone else or been placed somewhere else who knows what might have happened. Why should she retire for losing to the number 3 player in the world and odds on favorite to win the whole tournament?
Safina was not a fraud.
In 2008, she had a stretch of 9 events where she made the SF or better in 7 of them. Won 3 Tier-1s, slam F, USO SF, Olympic silver, tied Serena for most titles that year with 4.
In 2009, 2 slam finals, 2 more Tier-1s, 8 events she made the finals, Wimbledon SF, Cincy final. Yes the end of 2009 was a disaster, but that's when her back started acting up. Knee pain during clay season but made the FO finals and Wimby SF despite that.
2010 was a mess from the get go after the 4th round AO retirement. It's a slippery slope when having both knee and back problems. Add to that the mental hiccups and pressure of living up to expectations and you got a recipe for disaster.
I don't know what to say. She's fitter than before and her service motion looks more fluid. But she's become more of a pusher the past two years and a sloppy one at that.
Here are my view on Safina:
She probably needs to reassess her goals at this point. First she needs to accept she was a fluke #1, the least talented player to ever reach such a lofty achievement, and one who grossly overachieved to be in that position and have multiple chances to win slams. She needs to get over the fact she squandered those opportunities (to win slams) that someone of her marginal talent both technically and in mental strength should have never had in the first place, and that barring a miracle they will never come again. And if she is able to accept these realisms she can then get back to work to trying to become a top 20 player again who has an outside shot of breaking into the top 10 for small periods and who can be a threat to make reasonable slam showings and maybe win non slam tournaments again, which is a more realistic place for someone of her skill as far as maximizing their potential. If she continues to think of herself as someone who should be #1 or getting to slam finals again then she will continue to implode and should retire.
She also needs to accept that right now she no longer has a top 100 game or mentality and start from scratch by playing Challengers and rebuilding her confidence and game by trying to scratch out wins and maybe even Satellite level tournament titles against players who are now of her current level. And work from there with the ultimate goal of being a top 20 player again.
You canNOT be serious!
She had some nice draws to make those finals. At the 2009 Australian the real final was the Dementieva-Serena semifinal in the other half, but Safina lucked into a soft draw on the other side and came through to be massacred by Serena. Dementieva, Kuznetsova, and even Azarenka probably all would have beaten her there. At the 2008 French again the real final was the Jankovic-Ivanovic semi, Safina was only in the final since those two were in the same half. The strange retirements of Henin and Clijsters also threw the WTA up in disarray for awhile, in conjuction with the Williams sisters age and injuries, the decline of the other Russians, and the meltdowns of the also overachieving Serbs after reaching #1. Safina did not really overtake any established elites, she more or less tiptoed around alot of dead roadkill that started to clutter up the road up the WTA mess that developed of a year or two.
She reached the #1 spot by complete accident. I dont think even she imagined or dreamed of ever getting there. Henin and Clijsters retired, Serena only plays for the big 6 tournaments these days, and Sharapova became Shoulderpova. Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Mauresmo, also went through slumps and other issues, and voila a run of the mill top 20 player like Safina is suddenly at #1. Yet even while she was #1 nobody thought of her as the best player in the World or gave her a hope when she played a big name in a big match. The only slam anyone ever expected her to win was the 2009 French and yet she still self destructed in the final vs a marginal champion (Kuznetsova) in epic fashion.
Sorry someone who gets humiliated in all their slam finals and their slam semi losses, is not playing like a #1 player in the World. Yeah she was consistent for awhile but she was also consistently never good enough against the real best players. What kind of true #1 loses an Australian final 6-0, 6-3, as the heavy favorite get rocked by a then 1 time slam winner in the French Open final, then loses a Wimbledon semi 6-1, 6-0. Then goes on to lose to people outside the top 100 the remainder of the tour.
The Australian Open final of 2009 and U.S Open semis of 2008 conclusively proved Serena was far and away better than Safina at the time. Safina outperforming Serena in a series of minor clay court events certainly does not change that. The only way Safina could have made any temporary debate about that would be to win the French as she was expected to do, instead she plays abysmally in the final and gets thrashed by Kuznetsova, who Serena even on her worst surface came alot closer to beating than Safina. Wimbledon 2009 put the final stamp on any comparision. Serena >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Safina even during Safina's best one year stretch that got her to #1.
Dont kid yourself. Marion Bartoli beat her 6-1, 6-0 last week. 39 year old Kimiko Date made Safina her b-tch last year. Out of the 128 players in the draw there are maybe 17 she would have beaten right now, if that. Anyone can beat Safina now, nobody is afraid of her.
dude, if you're trying to be the "ultimate serena apologist", you're gonna need to change your nym to "nadalserenaagassi" or something.
man. before the match had started i thought maybe safina could stage a big upset (like petrova had done last year)
Safina's rank will drop to #114 or somewhere in that range.
Oudin ate 2 breadsticks in her loss to Zakopalova. Melanie's USO QF looking more like a fluke. Last year she lost in the 1st round 12 times.
You're just now coming to that conclusion?
Marat could help her do what?
What you miss is the following: the fraud could not overcome anyone when it counted and to add her self-generated insult to injury, in 2009, she defended her hollow position by claiming:
...revealing she realized that she never had the goods to rise to the top and win majors, so she uttered one of the most self-defeating, assbrained statements in recent sports history.
Serena has nothing to do with Safina being a fraud who could not win majors--the crucial point in this discussion on whether or not she should retire. If she could not capture a major at the height of her so-called abilities, how can one with such a spectacularly bad AO 2011 exit hope to rise to the challenge of so many in order to win a major?
A moment of kindness from Tanya, especially to Dinara Safina of all people, is a rare thing so pay close attention... I think the poor girl just needs to start over completely and play challenger events to get some wins under her belt and start to pick up the pieces of her shattered confidence. I don't think she'll ever be a real contender in any major tournament again, however I DO think she has the ability to get back into the top 30 (or even 20) and make a decent living and put together a career that is proportionate to her talents. It's too early in my opinion for her to be considering retirement. At least in dear Vaidisova's case she had a personal life (no matter how ugly it is) to fall back on.
the sadest thing about this is: safina keeps on losing and dropping in the rankings and everybody is feeling sorry for her but she is still a thousand times better than me
Good god. Did she really say that?
Sadly she did...and people got on Serena's case for mocking Safina's ranking. I believe she said something like: "Safina did well to win Rome and Berlin...." then she burst into laughter. Something like that. Haven't watched the video in a while.
whereas Serena cannot win non slam events or do well enough in them to maintain the top ranking when she gets it by winning the events that "really count"
Whereas Serena during the time she lost 3 straight matches in a row to lower ranked players who she should have been able to beat even on her worst surface said something to the effect of "we all know who the real number 1 is"
Despite the fact that in 3 weeks she lost to Zakopalova, Schiavone and Schnyder and then arguably choked at the French against Kuznetsova. That is not proving yourself the "true number 1" and in my opinion at least is just as stupid a thing to say as the quote you posted from Safina given the recent results she was posting on the tour.
You posted that Safina was a fraud of a number 1, and Serena has quite a lot to do with that. If Serena made even close to the effort she made at slams outside of them Safina would likely have never gotten to number 1 in the first place and even if she had she would not have held it as long as she did. Her inability to thus far win a major (I will not say she will never win one, if someone like Schiavone can win one anyone can), would not be as big a deal if she had never gotten the number one spot, which Serena has just as much to do with as Safina does. Its not Safina's fault either if the rest of the tour is so bad that they cannot keep the "fraud" from moving high enough up in the rankings to be talked about as a major contender. Safina was doing her job, playing tennis to the best of her ability. Maybe it didn't yield a major, but if everyone who at the height of their abilities could not win a major retired right now the tour would have a grand total of maybe 5 people on it, and there would be no tour for Serena to be number 1 on.
Jankovic in the middle of 2009 was asked who she thought was #1. Her answer was: "herself, with Serena as #2". Jankovic had a lousy year, was losing to nobodies (lost yet again to her master Chakvetadze), looked lifeless and excuse-happy in the 2nd half of that year, barely made it into Doha, and was blaming everyone for her misfortune except herself (fired then re-hired her coach in the process). Yet she gets a pass while Safina got bashed most of that year.
I for one hope she does at least get back top 50, she's better than what she showed last night.
I never heard her say that but she was probably joking. She is nutty Jankovic after all.
Anyway most of us are not judging personalities and quotes. Tennis ability wise Safina is the weakest to reach #1. Jankovic and Ivanovic even are both better players at their best than she was. And if you want to bring up Wozniacki she is very young, it is pretty clear she is on her way to becoming a better player than Safina at her best even if you think she isnt now. Of course that isnt her fault but even if you are her fan you have to admit the #1 ranking was an enormous overachievement for her and the immense and unrealistic pressure that came with it has led to her career collapsing.
I still think she has potential to get back to top 20 someday maybe. No higher than that for sure though.
The poster was not finding fault with others but only stating his/her opinion.
Nothing wrong with that. Also, the fact that Caroline said she does not look at the draw is stupid. That is like a lawyer going to try a case in court and saying that he/she did not look at the case law in that area.
Ad hominem. Fail. Maybe you should join Woz at Yale to learn how to debate properly. I suggest starting out with a Logic course.
If we need to be #1 in order to criticize these players then this forum wouldn't exist, would it? This whole site if full of criticisms about players' tennis skills, perceived arrogance, laziness, morals, work ethic, even their flying arrangements. Yet I'm not allowed to criticize someone for having so little awareness about tennis that she can't even discuss her racket change? Granted, she's 20 y/o so I will cut her some slack. But I'm not asking her to expound on American foreign policy or nuclear physics. I think a player in her position should have something insightful to say about her equipment and her potential opponents. If she doesn't have anything to say then I have no interest in listening to her.
Again, Safina's failures as a player have nothing to do with Serena or anyone else on tour, so this little attempt to shift blame is not working.
The point is that she doesn't want to know anything about the draw other than who her next opponent is. She believes she'll lose her focus on the immediate match if she starts wondering about a possible possible QF against Henin or some such.
As for the racquet change she still plays with the same strings. I don't think (hope) the change will effect her game too much. The King match certainly showed she can play good tennis with the new racquet also.
I agree she's not very interesting to listen to. But honestly, how many 20 yos are? And so often she's asked the same questions again and again. Must be a little hard to come up with original answers to unoriginal questions.
You'll have to forgive Thundervolley. He or she is still struggling to wrap his or her mind around the fact that the rankings don't necessarily reflect who the best player is. They reflect who has managed to post the best results on average throughout the previous 52 weeks.
I said the very same thing yesterday. Forget majors, she needs to scale down to challengers and futures and rebuild her confidence and work on her game. Also a new coach...a life coach, couldnt hurt.
LMAO. Ugly, but true.
You will have to forgive kanamit. He cannot bring himself to admit that Safina was more hype than substance at the all-important majors (meaning: she did not have the talent to win the majors), and her rapid collapse as a top player in less than two years speaks volumes....not to mention Safina defending her failures by drooling out the moronic statement of the decade:
Yeaahh......that worked out well for her......
Bartoli out for six weeks with a calf muscle tear. I knew something wasn't right in losing to Manasieva.
Wickmayer went out in the 2nd round. I think she wants membership here (don't worry Wicky fans, there's usually a waiting period to get that privilege).
Poor Marion. Take care of that calf!
Started a thread on women's seeding, think going back to 16 seeds would help and add more intriguing early matches instead of the blowouts we often see the 1st week of slams.
Jankovic is next up. Down a set and down 5-2 in the 2nd set to Peng.
Another headcase bites the dust.
Ive always liked Jankovic's game, enjoyed watching her final against Wozzy in Indian Wells last year, too bad she isnt tougher mentally
at what point do we give jj tenure???
Jankovic isn't a headcase, she's just burnt out. She has already reached her greatest achievements, her career is just going to keep deteriorating at this point.
Hmmm... I'll have to debate this one within my head. She's done bad at her last 3 majors, bombed out at the YEC, and looks nothing like she was in late 2008.
I think she's more of an excuse-happy drama queen than a headcase. Other than last year's FO, she's been dreadful at majors the past 2+ years. She finds ways of staying in the top 10 given her limited weapons, so she's still on probation.
Kleybanova KO'd by Halep? OMG....
Well JJ has more weapons than Wozniacki who is #1 so I dont think she should be given praise for that. Or atleast had until recently when Wozniacki has improved quite a bit.
That's debatable. Both are stronger off the backhand side. Woz has a better serve. Forehand can be iffy for both, though Jankovic hits more winners I suspect. Volleying is not an area of expertise for either. Jankovic is better at hitting the balls deep, but IMO Woz hits better angles. Movement is still in JJ's favor. Irritating the opponent more seems to go to Woz. JJ has a 4-0 H2H vs Woz. JJ's A game > Woz's A game, but I haven't seen JJ's A game since last year's Indian Wells. I'll let the other posters chime in.
Zvonareva down 5-2 to Jovanovski. Oh Vera..... Bojana takes the set 6-2.
Zvonareva wins. Humanity was spared... this time.
Why is it relevant that which dumb ball basher wins?
Jovanovski is bound to further move up the ranks. Her grunts are noisy though. She's similar in hitting style to Wickmayer and Rezai while looking like a brunette version of Azarenka. She's got game, but still needs to polish a few things.
That said, Davai Bepa!
Like the 90% of the WTA aren't already like these... We need one more.
Actually BG seems to have quite a positive opinion of Caro.
Kuznetsova got one monkey off her back today. Is this a promising sign or just an aberration?
What do we make of Svetlana's performance?
On the one hand, after not losing serve the whole match, she loses her serve twice serving for the match, and looked tight doing so. Plus, she lost those match points while up 6-4 in the tiebreak.
On the other hand, she could have completely mentally folded after having all those chances, but showed remarkable resiliency. And, the point she played down set point in the tiebreak (the 21 shot rally) was clutch, sublime tennis.
So, she did show some mental weakness, but I think it is outweighed by the mental toughness she showed by not melting down and letting missed chances get to her. Also, she knew in the back of her mind that she's 2-16 against Justine and had never beaten her at a Slam. So, that makes her effort even more impressive IMO.
Who cares about Kuznetsova. She will get crushed in the quarters by Wozniacki (unless she loses next round which is easily possible) based on tonights peformance which was frankly mediocre anyway as someone who watched the eyesore of the match. She simply was the lesser of the two evils on court. If something was considered wrong with her before today I would say dont take her name off the list based on anything she did tonight which was simply win a dreadful quality match which she choked away anyway but got outchoked by a clown former champion. Lastly beating Henin is easy to do for anyone these days, even in a slam. It is not a big win.
This is instead the place to put Henin's name here about 5 times in a row and say she seriously needs to retire again already, before she humiliates herself and her status as a 7 time slam champion (people who didnt know that would burst out laughing if you suggested it now) even more. Her whole comeback has proven to be a complete and utter failure with a capital F. She is 20% the player she was before she retired, and is a C-level ball bashing power player who sprays errors all over the court and a mental midget now to boot. With the serve of Dementieva to go with all that. Her crappy results apart from her fluke final in Australia last year are about right for the mediocre player she has now become.
Kuznetsova never does anything the easy way. Some things never change. Still, she showed some mental toughness that's often been absent.
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