The WTF court hasn't been slowed down

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by Federer20042006, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. Federer20042006

    Federer20042006 Banned

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    It's ALWAYS been this slow. It was slow when Federer won it, too.

    Federer actually prefers slow courts these days in some ways, as it gives him more time to make up for his loss of movement.
     
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  2. eliars

    eliars Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I can't see the 'slower court' that some people are talking about after the last couple of days. It seems like they forgot how slow the O2 always has been.

    I think there will always be a group people witch hunting, claiming how every surface is getting slower from one year to another.

    It seems like a fair amount within this group of people aren't always consistent with this stance, especially if their favourite player does well.
     
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  3. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    It always has been slow. People are crying hoarse because the bounce has become significantly higher. For an indoor court its ridiculous.
     
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  4. eliars

    eliars Hall of Fame

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    :rolleyes:

    So it's not the speed, only the bounce this year? Did you come to that conclusion after seeing Nadal beat Ferrer today by any chance?

    Sheez ;___:
     
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  5. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Since when has the bounce become significantly higher?
     
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  6. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Don't shoot the messenger people! But the bounce is pretty high for an indoor court. Thats all I'm saying. Look at the way the ball was getting up to Ferrer's backhand.
     
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  7. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Ferrer is short :twisted:
     
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  8. eliars

    eliars Hall of Fame

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    Not shooting the messenger, especially not when there's no real message to be delivered in the first place.

    Look, all we as TV-spectators can go by to determine how a court plays are the following:

    a) using expert-argumentation: voicing the opinion of others: players and pundits' perception of a court.

    b) extract information by looking at a TV-screen that 95 % of the time shows tennis from a high camera angle - one that is not very conducive to determining neither speed or bounce of a surface.

    This is why this topic will always remain an urban legend because there is not any positivistic or emperical evidence to prove whether or not a surface has been slowed down*. So at this point I can't prove you're wrong just like you can't prove me you're right.

    The thing that I think is to my advantage regarding this argument is that tennis is a very conservative sport that notoriously doesn't change its infrastructure from one day to another (the last time someone tried to do that to a surface it got banned the following year). People who believe courts have been slowed down since the 90s (which I agree they have been) will confirm that the 'surface homogenization' has been gradual and not something that has come overnight, or in this case within 12 months. Exceptions include tournaments that have publicly announced that their courts have been resurfaced (like the Australian Open did in 2008 ). WTF hasn't to my knowledge announced such a thing.

    So to sum up. We as spectators have very few reliable tools to actually measure surface speed and bounce. With that being said I find it hard to agree with the conspirators who believe tournaments will radically and unannounced slow down/alter their surfaces within a year, as a part of larger conspiracy from the ATP to either **** off your average tennis purist on an online tennis board or as a means to help Rafael Nadal win tournaments as Toni Nadal is in their pockets or for whatever reason.

    *Yes. Attempts have been made i.e. a Wimbledon-video of Federer's serve that was talked about earlier today, but for it to hold scientific value they'd have to measure more than just point. You'd have to have measure thousands of points from a variety of players and then find a way to retroactively compare that to a thousand of other points played by a variety of players 5 years earlier. Not to talk about having to account for all the external factors.
     
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  9. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    What more important is the bounce. Nadal likes a medium paced court with high bounce...or any court with high bounce.
     
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  10. T-Noone

    T-Noone Professional

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    I agree that the bounce is somewhat higher.
    I personally like this court speed, while it's not ridiculously fast, it keeps players on their toes and everyone seems to be hugging the baseline.
     
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  11. Incognito

    Incognito Hall of Fame

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    but he is playing Nadal that's normal. watch when he plays berdych, the ball will not bounce that high..
     
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  12. merwy

    merwy Legend

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    Don't know what you guys are talking about, the court looks crazy slow to me. I can't even take it seriously anymore, it's like they're playing a prank on us to see how slow they can make the courts without players or fans protesting.

    Oh and you can determine it by watching the ball on the screen. The high camera angle provides an excellent medium to do so. The ball bounces higher as well, which often goes hand in hand with lower court speed. The power of the ball has to be redirected somewhere. If not horizontally, then vertically.
     
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  13. marc45

    marc45 Hall of Fame

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    well, it was incredibly dead in the past, the ball just seemed to stick there when it hit...I never felt the court was too fast for Nadal to win but that low, dead bounce was definitely not helping him..who knows what they do to these courts leading up to a tournament...it would be interesting to be in a room where they're discussing it
     
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  14. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    court seems decent enough..not fast fast, but ok, its a court that can reward defence or attack.

    not as dead as Miami or AO 2012 which was the worst ever.

    prob get a bit quicker as we go through the week with 4 matches a day, court will wear down slightly and speed up. A BIT.
     
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  15. jones101

    jones101 Hall of Fame

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    Look for Nadals post match anaylsis in the Sky studio after his Ferrer win (short but good)

    He did say that the court bounces higher than in Paris, which is preferable for him, but didn't mention the difference from last year to this.

    Just watching a recording of a match from last year, the court looks to be the same speed as last year (slow).
     
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  16. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    Federer himself said in his post match interview yesterday, that the O2 court is SAME as last year! He said it's slower than Paris, but same as last year's at O2. Not much difference at all.

    I think that puts an end to this!
     
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  17. marc45

    marc45 Hall of Fame

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    so when Fed speaks all discussion ends, got it :)
     
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  18. chrischris

    chrischris Hall of Fame

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    Are they using the same turfs in London as in Bercy?

    Is it same temp in these 2 arenas as a rule ?
    Could a larger crowd and hotter temps make for a difference if the actual surface is the same brand?
     
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  19. swordtennis

    swordtennis Hall of Fame

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    It def is higher bounce. Federer hit a FH DTL that looked like a Nadal FH. That jig kicked up around Nole's head. Nole of course had no trouble handling it with the BH. :twisted:
     
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  20. eliars

    eliars Hall of Fame

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    Here's me employing an expert-argument:

    Skysports just showed a great interview of Mark Petchey interviewing Nadal. Rafa talked about the idea behind serving down the T to Wawrinka on the ad side most of the time (and how he changed that pattern up compared to Shanghai where he went out wide most of the time) is because he feels the surface is not only slower, but also because it 'doesn't take his spin so well'.

    That's another indication of how dead a surface this one really is.
     
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  21. Incognito

    Incognito Hall of Fame

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    despite being slow, Stan clocked a 137mph serve and Rafa hit a 95mph inside-out fh which wasn't even flat..
     
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  22. chicagodude

    chicagodude Professional

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    Probably one of the best posts the past month....Coherent and fair. Not denying the slowing down of courts, but also not jumping to conclusions that are not supported.
     
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  23. robertharris

    robertharris Banned

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    The WTF is still fast and significantly faster than most of the events on tour. Does anyone think Federer could beat Nadal 6-3, 6-0 on a slow court like he did at the 2011 WTF. Dont make me laugh.

    The complaints (mostly coming from Nadal haters it seems) are even more baffling when Nadal has never won the WTF and generally does very poorly there. So one would think these people would be very satisfied but still no. It seems there is alot of butthurt from Nadal haters who were praying he would go 0-3 here so Djokovic would be handed a completely undeserved farcial year end #1, he never should have been in contention for anyway; but alas their dreams were crushed, so they blame the surface.
     
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  24. eliars

    eliars Hall of Fame

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    Thank you. I gave this post a little extra effort too compared to my usual babbling :)
     
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  25. JanowiczJ

    JanowiczJ Professional

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    Anyone watching the doubles match that just ended right now would realize how slower the court became. Granollers/Lopez were defending smashes like they were drop shops. Seriously, more than 20 smashes defences for sure combining the doubles. And some became winners. Not sure what they did but the court became even slower. The surface is probably too abrasive. The ball would not slide at all. It seems the ball would lose 'energy' and go straight up.

    Or the ball is different. That may be the case.
     
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  26. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with him. If the surface is slower it's only marginally. However the bounce is riddiculous this year.
     
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  27. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Ehmm dude you can hit fast shots on any surface...it's the way the ball reacts AFTER it hits the ground that matters
     
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  28. Incognito

    Incognito Hall of Fame

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    Yeah I know. Nadal's balls bounce high even on this surface while Stan's, not so much. Nadal's opponents can basicall t-off on every Nadal shot. I'm not a dude btw.
     
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  29. edberg volleys

    edberg volleys Professional

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    The bounce is higher this year compared to 2011.
     
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  30. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

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    Nadal's problem isn't necessarily the bounce, either. He just does not do as well indoors compared to outdoors.
     
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  31. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    Hard to tell considering I haven't seen any high bouncing indoor surfaces on hardcourts. If it's true that the conditions are slower indoors. Then it would be incredibly slow if they made the surface high bouncing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
    #31
  32. firepanda

    firepanda Professional

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    Thank you. This place needs a little skepticism. Also, regard Federer's serve, balls started from different places and heights, so likely had different spins.
     
    #32
  33. Rainalkar

    Rainalkar Rookie

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    The simple way would be for someone to count all winners and ue from last year, and see how the ratio compares to this year.
     
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  34. jhhachamp

    jhhachamp Hall of Fame

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    This logic makes no sense to me. Slower courts favor players with better movement. Faster courts favor players with better shotmaking.
     
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  35. edberg volleys

    edberg volleys Professional

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    Slow, as it always been, yes, but the bounce is higher without a doubt! And if you are ever played tennis, let's say some sort of competitions; what comes to level you should know that it's not the court speed but bounce if you are aggressive player.....
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
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  36. jhhachamp

    jhhachamp Hall of Fame

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    I'm not sure I understand why you quoted me. If doesn't appear you actually discussed anything I said in my post.
     
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  37. edberg volleys

    edberg volleys Professional

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    Sry, I have some serious difficulties with my computer. Wrong quete, TBH. But I am sure that everyone got the message I meant!
     
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  38. edberg volleys

    edberg volleys Professional

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    Higher bounce, thats it.
     
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  39. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    I see no higher bounce. It still stays low.
     
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  40. furryballs

    furryballs Banned

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    its a dead court.....hardcourt layed over carpet but a bit grippy
     
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  41. furryballs

    furryballs Banned

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    it is a low bouncing hardcourt
     
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