Theory: Kevlar is better for club players than poly

Discussion in 'Strings' started by The Dark Knight, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Here's why.....

    The pros use poly and it may be a better string but the pros have virtually nothing on common with a club player.

    The pros will use poly for one set or a match and then cut the strings out......why? Because the fact is that after just one match Polys play completely differently . They are not meant to stay in your racquet for am extended period of time.

    On the other hand Kevlar holds its tension and plays the same much longer. For example a club player who plays with a poly string job for a month versus a Kevlar string job for a month will have a completely different experience.

    The poly will be dead and lifeless while the Kevlar will play the same throughout.

    ****Obviously not a full bed of of kevlar !!!! Kevlar must be mixed with gut or a soft string !!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
    #1
  2. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Is this just abject speculation based on idle theory, or will there be a comparative playtest?
     
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  3. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    it's abject speculation based on idle theory . I'm looking for advice from people who know more.

    Do you?
     
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  4. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    no. Kevlar is terrible. i am sure if you are trolling by asking such a stupid question, but it would kill the average player's arm.
     
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  5. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    hope you are not giving anyone string advice, because you could cause them surgery.
     
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  6. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Well I didn't mean a full bed of kevlar of course.

    I meant kevlar and gut or a multi or something .

    No one uses full kevlar.
     
    #6
  7. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    What's stupid is assuming I meant a full bed of kevlar. I assumed Everyone knows you can't do that.

    I play with kevlar and gut. I find it to be far superior to poly after just a week.

    The problem with poly is that it's awesome when you first put it in .....but very quickly it loses tension and playability.

    As a club player you need a string that's playable for a longer period of time . Don't you agree with that?
     
    #7
  8. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Uh-huh.

    Well then post picures and do a comparative playtest with two rackets simultaneously.
     
    #8
  9. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Agree. poly goes dead in few hours at most. once dead, loses control big time and that is stable of what polys are good for.

    but Kevlar though doesn't give you as much spin. can they make cerrated Kevlar with sharp edges ?
     
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  10. fgs

    fgs Hall of Fame

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    could you please define "club player". i'm serious about this, because in most clubs i get to, there is a vast range of players, not only by skill levels but also by age. some of them would have no business in neither kevlar nor poly, for others it could eventually be an option.

    i have just once played a prepacked kevlar/syngut hybrid, and have found nothing, but absolutely nothing spectacular about it. for the vast majority of club players (in the wide understanding of the term), there is nothing to be found in kevlar since it is so low powered and they just come to enjoy themselves and not for a proper "workout".

    coming back to my kevlar experience, the mains were 1.10mm (i guess that's 18ga) and i have gone through them faster than a 1.25mm poly. therefore, from my point of view, i have nothing to gain from it, and most people (club players) that are not stringbreakers rather go with synguts from what i've seen, and i can only approve their decision - easy on the wallet and easy on the arm.
     
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  11. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Come on you know what a club player is!

    A club player is anyone who do not cut out their string jobs after one match like the pros do.

    Don't get me wrong .....I do find poly superior .....for one match . After that poly loses tension and plays completely differently . Everytime you play with poly it's like playing with a different set of strings.

    Kevlar on the other hand I feel plays consistently the same .
     
    #11
  12. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Fixed for you guys . Sheesh!!!
     
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  13. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    i agree, kevlar just feels consistent. even a 4 hr old poly can feel very different the next day so kevlar has a consistency that is good. but it can hurt your joints so just be careful.
     
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  14. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, kevlar is more consistent. But the big IF is if your arm can take that much stiffness (even in a hybrid with gut).

    The stiffness measurements on kevlar are in the 600s.
    The stiffness measurements on polys are in the 200s.
     
    #14
  15. moonballs

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    True but even Kevlar hybrid is too much risk for the arm and wrist. Consistently stiff and harsh is not a good property.
     
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  16. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    First off, you're incorrect about pros and poly. The vast majority of pros do not use racquets for one set. A very small minority, at the top of the game, do and that's what you see. But 95%+ don't put a racquet down after 7 or 9 games. This comes from a paper written by Luxilon.

    There is a friend of mine I string for. He kept breaking strings. He didn't want to pay $10 every other month to get his racquet restrung and asked me if I had anything that would stay in his Cat 10's longer. I said sure. I had a few sets of this Dunlop kevlar/synthetic hybrid. The kevlar was 17 gauge and the synthetic was 16 gauge I believe.

    Anyway, I strung it up and did it right, backed tension off a few pounds on the kevlar because I didn't want the guy to hurt himself. He called me the next day after he got his first racquet to let me know how much he liked it. Now this guy really doesn't care about string, he just goes out and plays. He was really enthusiastic. Fast forward three months...he still really likes it. It stays in there and it hits good and he can't break it. Fast forward 6 months...he breaks a set. He also mentions that his arm is starting to hurt.

    After a year and several restrings, he complains about his arm. I told him that the problem could be fixed by changing back to synthetic gut. He smiled and said "No, I have two elbows". Six months after that he said he didn't care if he had to spend $10 every two months, that stuff was coming out of his racquet.

    He's been back on synthetic gut ever since and his arm is pain free.

    I used to play with a Hammer 5.0. I went through two sets of string a week. I changed to Prince Pro Blend, had it put in at 65. I met an arm surgeon and was introduced to cortisone after about 6 months of it. I've had two injections in my wrist, about a dozen in the top of my elbow, and two (the most painful) in the bottom of my elbow.

    Take from this what you will.

    IMO, kevlar kills.
     
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  17. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I believe the claim that poly completely dies in a few hours is a bit of a myth. Some polys drop tension rather rapidly, but others tend to stabilize after the initial drop.

    Most "club" players don't need an extremely consistent string bed. Synthetic guts and multis also drop tension and change in how they play over time.

    I get much more than a few hours of play out of a full bed of TS cyberflash. The tension drop is noticeable, but the rebound angle doesn't change for quite a while and I get a decent amount of play time before the string starts moving and the spin level drops drastically.

    I'm not an expert with Kevlar, but the time I borrowed a friend's racket to try it I found it horribly stiff and unforgiving. I don't understand it but some people love it.
     
    #17
  18. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But doesn't poly do also?
     
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  19. BLX_Andy

    BLX_Andy Professional

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    I remember hitting with Kevlar on my dad's Wilson Hyper Hammer (wal-mart racquet, nothing more). It was hybrided w/ a multi but it still hurt like heck. My arm twitches just thinking about it.
     
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  20. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    And some of the most popular Kevlars are well above 700:
    Ashaway 17: 757
    Ashaway 16: 764
    Prince ProBlend: 981
     
    #20
  21. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    I like having a kevlar set to practice with. It is easier on my arm by far than any poly, plays consistently, and the spin is only a little less than a full poly job. I played with Pro Blend and other Kevlar hybrids for over 20 years and never had an arm problem. For important matches, I'll use a Lux ALU Rough or Spin string job (usually with a multi cross). I can feel it a bit in my elbow, but other poly string (even ones with similar stiffness) will put a real hurt on my elbow. Stiffness is not the only factor in whether a string hurts your arm.
     
    #21
  22. Lips

    Lips Semi-Pro

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    club players do not have the skills...racket head speed, technique, to make playing with Kevlar a viable option...you need to be a certain level to really get the benefits of this sting...
     
    #22
  23. ultradr

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    I generally agree. but kevlar is kinda dead from the beginning. ....

    Let's just ban polys. that's my "sentiment".
     
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  24. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Thanks.!

    I found kevlar in the mains and gut in the crosses to be really comfortable . No issues .

    Maybe the key is to use gut in the crosses? Worked for me.
     
    #24
  25. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I have used Kevlar before, and it has no place, IMO, in the modern game whatsoever. There is a reason you have to bring it out of obscurity just to discuss it as an option. It has been ousted in every regard by more modern string types. The people who say that Kevlar is the best for tension stability are quite wrong. It in fact loses the most tension of any string type. The reason you don't feel this is because that its stiffness is so incredibly high. A consistently stiff stringbed is not superior to a less consistent but more forgiving one. It is no coincidence then that stiffness is defined as the ability to resist deformation. If you can't stretch it beyond its normal shape, then it's no surprise that it doesn't hold the measly 50lbs you intend to string it at. The absolute lack of power also has no place in the game of the average rec player. They need some power to be provided by the strings. Kevlar is obsolete in the tennis world. I truly don't understand the people who also still think it provides as much or more spin than poly when it has been disproven dozens of times.
     
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  26. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I actually got the idea from that guy who runs tennis (Rhymes with ) fenace

    .I was talking to him about strings and how I was sick of poly losing its playability after just one match.

    He explained to me that Poly was really only meant for the pros and that after a week or so it loses most everything.

    The Kevlar though was my idea. I was looking for a string that is stiff and has a lot of spin but can stay constant for a longer period of time.

    So that's why I came up with Kevlar.

    I've been playing with Kevlar in the mains and gut in the crosses.....I find that even after three weeks it plays pretty much the same as it did after day one .

    Is this scientific? No it's not. Where did you get that Kevlar loses its tension quicker than Poly? Is that your feeling or is it based on something ?

    Please note I am not saying Kevlar is the way to go.....I'm asking if its the way to go.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
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  27. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I can't agree with you more. :)
     
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  28. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    What is there to "understand"? When people play with Kevlar, they get as much or more spin than with poly strings. What's more relevant and accurate than actual empirical evidence? If almost everyone who plays with natural gut says that it's softer than poly, doesn't that make natural gut softer than poly?

    It makes total sense to me, as it's the stiffness of the stringbed that creates the spin and Kevlar makes for a stiffer stringbed than poly does.
     
    #28
  29. srimes

    srimes New User

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    I tried Kevlar for the first time about a month ago after reading this thread:
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=468680

    I like it. Only played with poly for a little while. Loved poly when fresh, got incredibly frustrated when it changed and I couldn't hit anything in anymore. Also hurt my elbow.

    I don't like the high trajectory of poly. The Kevlar/mzx is much better. Great spin too. Feels good and has plenty of power in the sweet spot. Near the frame it's way too stiff, but don't blame the strings on that.

    Can't say that full poly felt any less stiff than Kevlar/mzx.
     
    #29
  30. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    THANK YOU!!!!!!!
     
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  31. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Hi PV,

    I dont agree. Where are you getting that kevlar loses tension more than other strings? And then you say you dont notice it because it is stiff??? Isnt stiffness a measure of stringbed tension? Its the stiffness that keeps kevlar retaining tension.

    Also you really think a rec player can play with poly? That POLY has a place for rec players who dont restring but 2-3 times a year??

    I played with poly a few times and once it was great for 45 minutes. Then it stopped being great. Kevlar can go weeks and months with little change in the feel and or tension. Rec players dont change rackets every few games and with kevlar you dont need to!

    Totally agree about lack of power. That is why I love kevlar. It provides what rec players really need, and that is control.....
     
    #31
  32. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Pet peeve rant coming in: This is not a theory, but a hypothesis. Most do not understand the difference.

    A hypothesis consists either of a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon or of a reasoned proposal predicting a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena.

    A theory is a well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven hypotheses.

    (http://www.diffen.com/difference/Hypothesis_vs_Theory)
     
    #32
  33. kaiser

    kaiser Semi-Pro

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    I agree with you completely, but what 'theory'/hypothesis are you referring to?
     
    #33
  34. kaiser

    kaiser Semi-Pro

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    I switched from kevlar/syngut hybrids to full poly some 15 years ago. I like full poly much better and it plays consistently for me throughout its lifetime, especially since I've moved to very low tensions. I cut my strings out when they fail to return to their original position, and since I've been using low tensions in combination with silicone spray, that's 20+ hours of play. I've never had elbow problems.

    In short, nothing you say here tallies with my personal experience.
     
    #34
  35. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Wow really????

    I guess maybe I should try that silicone spray then? What does it do?

    However I must say that most stringers that I speak to say Poly plays very differently after a very short time .

    I guess we have a difference in the term "lifetime"?

    What exactly is "lifetime" to you?

    I find that playing with poly 3 times a week for three weeks makes the strings extremely different from when you first put them in.
     
    #35
  36. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Ummmm ok . I should have said "hypothesis".

    Sorry ?
     
    #36
  37. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    My experience was exactly the same.

    Poly is awesome , but I just hate that everytime you play it's like playing with a different set of strings.

    I honestly do not thin it's meant for the recreational player. Unless this silicone spray some were talking about lengthens the life of poly? I'm really intrigued about that now .
     
    #37
  38. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    I played kevlar strung in the 50 & 40lbs range. They were not uncomfortable for me but some others felt it was. Even at low tension they felt very consistent, low powered, and control oriented, but I did not feel like it put anything special on the ball, spin was low, and there was no feel. The polys that I like feel consistent and control oriented, have pop, decent feel, and put a noticeable amount of extra spin on the ball. Some people seem to forget that polys can be used in hybrids like kevlar. As for the polys that lose tension and their good playing characteristics in a few hours, its simple, I just avoid them and use better poly.
     
    #38
  39. moonballs

    moonballs Hall of Fame

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    Why is the stiffness that creates spin? A stiffer string bed means it will deform less in the normal direction of the string bed, and the mains will also deform less in the lateral direction. I just don't see how this translates into more spin. I can see it results in shorter dwell time which seems to lead to less spin.
     
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  40. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    Dark Knight, how strongly do you feel about Kevlar? I mean, is it something you'll use for years and years?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
    #40
  41. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    I thought kevlar would be better too. Then I tried it and damn, it is really stiff like hell, stiffer than any stiff poly!!!
    I know a lot of club players(the majority) that play very well with dead poly. And even dead poly is not as harsh as kevlar(even in hybrid).
     
    #41
  42. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I guess it depends on the thickness of the kevlar and the elbow in question. I use an 18 guage kevlar with 15 guage gut. Then again I have no elbow problems with poly or kevlar .

    It also depends I think ( hypothesis) of where the kevlar is placed . I place the kevlar in the mains NOT the crosses . Which give a very soft feel.

    The one way I did find a poly setup awesome is something that most rec players don't do . Which is placing gut in the mains and poly in the crosses.

    I loved that setup but the problem is that guy snaps pretty quickly and it changes as well.

    So in the long haul the kevlar in the mains and guy in the crosses does well.

    In short :

    Freshly strung poly > kevlar + gut

    Kevlar + gut > one match old poly
     
    #42
  43. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Don't know? So far I'm liking it a lot.

    If I had a private stringer and a million racquets I would use gut in the mains and poly in the crosses.

    But as a regular guy I find the kevlar + gut to be better over time .

    I'm very open to trying something new . That's why I posted the thread. Do you have another suggestion?
     
    #43
  44. The Dark Knight

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    The stiffer the strings the less trampoline effect.

    So it's more controllable spin......the tighter the strings the harder you can swing and keep the ball in. By swinging harder you create more head speed thus creating more spin.

    In the gut days Mcenroe I think stung in the low 50's on a tiny wood racquet while Borg had it like 80!

    When graphite came along and racquets became a bit bigger ....Sampras would also string at like 80 and he had the most RPM's on a serve in history .

    Today they use poly and it's a whole different ball game . They can string lower and still get a tight string bed.....but poly is a very stiff dead string and that is why you get so much spin.

    The problem is that poly loses tension and plays completely differently after just one match .

    Whereas the kevlar stays constant longer ....at least I think it does?
     
    #44
  45. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    I was just trying to gauge the strength of your convictions for your "theory".
     
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  46. The Dark Knight

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    Oh....well I'm not really sure about it to be honest .

    But honestly .....I love a new poly string job....but I hate losing a match because the string are just completely lifeless .

    I guess the answer is a good rotation of racquets .....but it's just a royal pain in the neck .

    It seems like in constantly restringing poly or settling for strings that don't play like they did when they were fresh.

    Every time I step out on the court with poly I never know how the strings are gonna play. It's really frustrating .
     
    #46
  47. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Certainly PVAudio knows a lot about strings, but some of the things he states here are personal preference. To me, a consistently stiff stringbed IS superior to a less consistent but more forgiving one. I do hit the ball very hard and kevlar works well for me - but for a rec player who doesn't hit hard, a good multi or syngut would probably work better than poly anyway. He is correct that it loses a lot of tension but that doesn't change the playing characteristics because the string is so stiff.
    Kevlar does not give as much spin as poly in my experience, but it does give control and more spin than syngut or multis (Kevlar/poly hybrid may, but I didn't give it a fair trial because my arm hurt so quickly). Hybrid with gut cross does give more power and more comfort and more spin, but it doesn't change the basic playing characteristics, it is still a stiff kevlar stringed.
     
    #47
  48. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    I experimented quite a bit with Kevlar/poly hybrids this summer and can confirm that it does give me less spin compared to a full bed of polyester.
     
    #48
  49. The Dark Knight

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    Thanks for that.

    Also what PV is saying about the "modern game" is true.....

    But I think he means the pros?

    In a perfect world I would use poly and gut and after a set use a new racquet with a fresh string job.

    I don't think you can play with poly for a month and expect the strings to play anything like when they were new .

    About kevlar losing it's tension .....I have to see . If it's true then might as well go with poly. But so far after playing three times I have noticed no difference .... Whereas with poly there's a huge difference .
     
    #49
  50. The Dark Knight

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    Agreed but at what point is the question?

    Try playing with both after one month . Then tell me which gives you more spin?

    I find a month old poly to be completely and utterly lifeless.
     
    #50

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