Theory: Kevlar is better for club players than poly

Discussion in 'Strings' started by The Dark Knight, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    I find a traditional Kevlar hybrid to be completely and utterly lifeless right from the start.
     
    #51
  2. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    At least it's constant :)

    Seriously though ....the gut gives it some pop. I put gut in the crosses not the mains
     
    #52
  3. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    You should be sorry! This is the internet, it's like life and stuff. :D
     
    #53
  4. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Yep. That is what I like about it. You can hit the ball and get a firm solid feel with zero spring.

    Though recently I moved down to 32lbs and its a winner for me. I get the same stiff stringbed, but with the lower tension there is some ball pocketing.

    So some of this has to do with how you hit the ball. Do you stroke it or hit it?

    But even then as a rec player I want to minimize variables. So a lively string bed that changes over time is one huge variable that I would rather avoid. This IMHO is what DKs hypotheses is all about.

    Rec players have enough inconsistencies and removing the whole string tension musical chairs of poly can only help.
     
    #54
  5. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Oh wow! I never thought of that?

    I'm going to lower the tension as well....but truthfully I live the stiff dead feel.

    No trampoline effect . Tons of control .
     
    #55
  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, most of them, particularly the stiffer ones.

    I have to avoid polys above a stiffness of 225 (which is 80% of them). Right now I play with a hybrid using Black Widow. Its stiffness is very low 200s.
     
    #56
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    For a less than once a week rec player, I'd recommend full NYLON. Good string tension maintainance, plays in the rain, won't break for a while. 15 gauge, since you are not trying to be a world beater.
     
    #57
  8. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Think about what happens to the ball, which is even more important. A stiffer stringbed means the ball compresses (flattens, pancakes, etc.) more against the stringbed on impact. This allows more of the surface area of the ball to make contact with more strings in the stringbed (the diameter and therefore the area of the contact between the ball and the stringbed increases as the ball flattens more). So when you brush up on the ball, more of the surface of the ball is being grabbed by more strings, which creates greater cumulative rotational forces on the ball that results in more spin.

    This is why people say they feel "more bite" when they hit the ball with poly strings than with soft multis. That's the feel of a greater number of strings digging deeper into a larger surface area of the ball due to the greater compression of the ball. The ball's fuzzy surface digging deeper into each string due to the stiffer stringbed (because of the ball yielding more and the stiff stringbed yielding less) allows each string to grab the ball better (more friction) which helps to rotate the ball as you brush up on it. This is also why when you hit the ball with a stiff stringbed like a full poly stringbed, you hear a louder "pop" than with a soft full multi stringbed. That louder "pop" is the sound of the ball compressing (flattening) more against your stringbed.
     
    #58
  9. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, at least from what I've heard, but it's not worth the risk.
     
    #59
  10. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    How long do these other pro players use their poly jobs for? any match i watch they are changing rackets at least once a match.

    You are not tying to claim that pro's use their string jobs for extended lengths of time like rec players do are you? Because that is totally incorrect, regardless of what some paper written by luxilon says.

    What do you think luxilon is going to say that there string plays like crap after the 2nd day of use.
     
    #60
  11. moonballs

    moonballs Hall of Fame

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    High speed videos show the ball is almost always sufficiently flattened on contact. After the ball stops sliding on the string bed the speed of ball surface is the same as the string bed. So further compression of the ball doesn't add more spin, because the ball can't turn faster than it is brushed.

    Well one factor can increase the spin is the lateral snap back of the main. It adds some speed on top of the lateral speed of the string bed. But I can't see why the snap back should be higher with stiffer strings, or the other way around.
     
    #61
  12. moonballs

    moonballs Hall of Fame

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    Yeah I agree with you, in that it is higher racquet head speed that increases spins. A stiffer bed is just one way of allowing higher RHS. Obviously better technique is a more direct way of reaching higher RHS.

    My initial question is more of if we hold the swing path, speed and everything else equal, does a stiffer string still help produce more spin.
     
    #62
  13. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    I was only 1 month into it and i had to do physical therapy and see specialists. i never had wrist pain before i used kevlar. elbow pain, yes, but not wrist pain.
     
    #63
  14. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I guess it depends on the person.
     
    #64
  15. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I've read up on that .

    Scientifically no ....practically yes.

    Looser strings = more power.

    So with looser strings you will be launching the ball out of the court.

    This is why the poly revolution started . They are very low powered dead strings .....it's allows pros to swing for the fences and still keep the ball in .

    So a tighter string bed will make it so that you can reall give the ball a good whack and keep the ball in.
     
    #65
  16. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    I've never played with Kevlar! I don't hit very hard and I use more spin more than anything else. How is it as a string base though?
    I usually use poly and nat gut.
     
    #66
  17. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    no the title should be

    gut mains and poly cross is best for all people including pros

    kev has no power unless its strung super super lose. its disgusting
     
    #67
  18. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Nothing is "best" for everyone !

    Come on .

    Personally I think poly has no power after a week or two.

    Different strokes for different folks.
     
    #68
  19. mattavery24

    mattavery24 Rookie

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    How is it that poly can last for a former pro player for two weeks and people here can't even get two matches without complaining about the string being useless.
     
    #69
  20. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Fair enough, hence I qualified my post with an IMO. I do believe in to each their own. :)
     
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  21. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    Because the sweeping generalizations and misinformation in this thread threaten to make tennis players look as though we're the dumbest group of people west of the Mississippi.
     
    #71
  22. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Not following you here. Swinging harder and having high RHS are not the same thing.
     
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  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Perhaps Sampras just swung faster with some brushing motion to create his superior spin speeds, and string material had little to do with it.
    Play with a bed of Kevlar. You won't be saying it's so great after a couple days of playing.
    Does all poly lose tension at the same rate? Or are there good ones and bad ones?
    NYLON is the best for "club players".
     
    #73
  24. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    You didn't back it off enough. You should be backing off around ten pounds from what most players string with synthetic gut..not 2 or 3.

    I've played with Kevlar mains for years..hybrid with polys and synthetic guts..the only time I've ever developed TE was from putting POLY in the mains. Of course, I've never gone over 50 lbs on the Kevlar. And with the lack of trampolining from Kevlar, you can go lighter on your cross no matter what it is, so you have a pretty soft stringbed. I hit with a racquet with a full poly job yesterday for a set, and voila, TE back.

    You have to look at Kevlar not as a tennis string, but as basically turning you racquet into a soft paddle. You accomplish this by using sub 50lb tensions and get the thought out of your mind that you'll lose control with low tensions...again, Kevlar does not launch a ball like syn gut or even some polys.

    If you go over 50lbs, yeah, you can hurt your arm, but I think poly is far worse.

    Everybody tries Kevlar and goes, "oh yeah, I normally string at 60...go 58 with the Kevlar." :rolleyes: Try 50 next time folks.
     
    #74
  25. dman72

    dman72 Hall of Fame

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    It's not the stiffness of poly, it's that's it's slippery. That allows the main to snap back, no matter what it is. It's why you lose spin when you start seeing strings all out of alignment in between points...that means the friction from the crosses is not allowing the main string to snap back. High speed videos and that banned spray are part of this idea. It makes more sense than anything about the ball being crushed because the stringbed is stiff..I think that gives more directional control but not spin.
     
    #75
  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    The ball flattens more against a stiff stringbed than against a soft resilient stringbed, all else being equal. With a very elastic, resilient stringbed, more of the energy of the impact goes towards stretching and deforming the strings, whereas, with a stiffer stringbed, more of the energy goes towards deforming (flattening) the ball.

    Which scenario do you think the ball flattens more on impact?

    1. When you throw it against a concrete wall?

    2. Or when you throw it at the same speed against a pillow?
     
    #76
  27. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, assuming you are brushing up on the ball and not just hitting it flat.

    That's why stiff polys and Kevlar strings produce more spin, and why Borg got so much spin by stringing his 18x20, 65 sq. in. wood racquet with natural gut at 85 lbs. People who hit with his racquet said it was like hitting the ball with a solid wooden paddle.
     
    #77
  28. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    If that happens to you it's because strings out of alignment create "holes" in your stringbed so when the ball impact these "holes", fewer strings are making contact with the ball. Therefore, fewer strings are grabbing the ball when you brush up so the total cumulative rotational force on the ball is less than when you have more strings grabbing and rotating the ball.
     
    #78
  29. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    It's not ?
     
    #79
  30. moonballs

    moonballs Hall of Fame

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    I can't tell the difference between swinging hard vs high racquet head speed. Certainly not from watching Nadal's forehand.
     
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  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    YOU gotta play rec tennis to know the difference.
    Nadal is a pro, swings loose and free most of the time, but you often see him GRIMACE and tighten up his whole body for certain winner attempts and passing shots.
    YOU, and me of course, as a rec player, sometimes swing loose and free, but under duress, might tighten up our grip on the handle, tense the body, and swing HARD without necessarily creating more racket head speed. We put our WEIGHT behind our swing.
     
    #81
  32. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Ahhhh. I see.

    Either way....the tighter the strings the more it allows you to swing loose and free as you say.

    Tighter = less power and more control .

    That's why polyester became popular in the first place ....because it plays like right strings no matter what. It is a dead string and very low powered as is kevlar.
     
    #82
  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I use SolincoTBite16 at 47 lbs., will go lower on the next string jobs..:)
    Looser strings give easy power, so you can control it by staying within your physical limitations, not overswinging, not pressing too hard.
    But as a rec player, when it get's tight, I'm under pressure, I lose my focus and still tighten up to try to out muscle the ball, to my demise, of course.
    Tight poly will hurt your arm sooner or later, will go dead quickly, will force you to swing harder than you can really control, and to force you to swing at your upper limit just to hit normal rally balls.
    Better to leave something in the tank for those special occasions.
     
    #83
  34. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    You're so all over the place I wonder if it's different people using the same username, just posting whatever stray, incomplete thought that comes to mind.
     
    #84
  35. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Precisely. The harder you try to swing as a club player, the more likely you are to just muscle the ball. When everything is working in tandem, aka, when you're loose, that's when you have the highest RHS.
     
    #85
  36. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    I'm curious as to what reference tensions people use in a kevlar hybrid?
     
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  37. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I'm at 56.

    Played with it last night. Tension seemed constant.....but I do notice I play better with a freshly strung poly job.

    It's maddening !

    I think maybe the answer is to use a fees poly job for important matches but the Kevlar hybrid for social weekend matches.

    The key with poly is keeping it fresh.
     
    #87
  38. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^
    then again you may be overthinking it just a bit...
     
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  39. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Allow me to translate: just play the damn game. :)
     
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  40. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    for me its down from the 60s to 32/32lbs. Thats on a constant pull machine with prestretch set to the max.
     
    #90
  41. BLX_Andy

    BLX_Andy Professional

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    True. Overanalyzing will hinder your game imo. Just play.
     
    #91
  42. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, so much misinformation in this thread, I cant even begin to untangle it all. A good 90% of the comments here regarding poly death, spin potential, tension loss, string bed deflection and string stiffness, are utterly and completely false. There is quite a bit about string that is not intuitive. Get a grasp of the basics first, then start hypothesising.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
    #92
  43. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    There's no misinformation .....poly playability does not last very long . It's a fact.
     
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  44. kaiser

    kaiser Semi-Pro

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    Nope, it's an opinion. And it is yours, not mine.
     
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  45. ChicagoJack

    ChicagoJack Hall of Fame

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    I doubt you even understand what poly "death" actually is, and what causes it.

    By the way, you remind me quite a bit of the poster known VOLLEY KING who was banned in April of 2012. (See threads below) The double spacing, fondness for the most unusual kinds of frames, unusual string patterns, double handles etc... Also quite an odd coincidence your account was created in April of 2012 as well.

    Review The Craziest Racquets You Own
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=415558

    Kblade & Donnay Pro one 18x20 version comparison
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=415021

    -Jack
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
    #95
  46. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Who cares what you classify as poly death and what causes it. The fact is it does die quickly and goes down hill after a few hours of play.
     
    #96
  47. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Let me guess poly plays better with time.
     
    #97
  48. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    :shock:

    Funny :)
     
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  49. Tennis Fanatic 070

    Tennis Fanatic 070 Banned

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    TDK is now polluting the string section as well, what a shame....
     
    #99
  50. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Yes by saying that Poly doesn't last that long......insanity! Pure insanity !!!!
     

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