Theory: Kevlar is better for club players than poly

Discussion in 'Strings' started by The Dark Knight, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    IMO, Kevlar caused my TE - which took a few years to completely heal. I will NEVER use that stuff again. It's akin to using guitar string.

    Kevlar does NOT maintain tension as it has very little elasticity. When stringing Kevlar on a D/W machine, it stretches ZERO - unlike poly which stretches a fair amount, depending on the string.

    There is a reason few use Kevlar - even pros. It is a soft tissue killer. Avoid it.
     
  2. Tennis Fanatic 070

    Tennis Fanatic 070 Banned

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    Yes we all know that, now try to convince The Dark Troll, who thinks he's got a exclusive right on the truth
     
  3. pkshooter

    pkshooter Semi-Pro

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    I don't understand why people hate Kevlar so much. On this forum people are too equipment sensitive, having the right gear is important but I don't think you can say Kevlar is wrong for everyone. I used it as a 13 year old using it in a stiff oversize getting about 2months per job. I had it at 60lb and I have never had elbow issues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  4. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Hey Bud. If the string stretches with use then it will have LESS tension...and not maintain tension. Its lack of stretching seems like an indicator to me that it actually does maintain tension pretty well.

    Travlrjam has some posts about the tension loss of kevlar.
     
  5. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Science says your wrong . According to every expert and even right here at the tennis warehouse website on the section on strings if says that next to gut Kevlar holds it tension better than any string.

    As far as tennis elbow did you hybrid with gut?? Because I do not recommend using a full set of kevlar.
     
  6. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Please quote the science that says this.

    In my experience, the more elastic a string the better it will hold tension (after the initial tension loss). Strings with little elasticity, like poly or Kevlar will lose tension quickly - since when they deform they do not return to anything near their former state. This is why poly is good for about 6-8 hours. What is the tension loss of Kevlar throughout its life inside a frame? Many issues of string and their effect on soft tissue also relates to how they vibrate when struck. It seems that Kevlar sends really bad vibes into the body.

    That's my understanding :)

    Take a poll and see how many people use Kevlar on this site. If it was some sort of magic bullet, many would be using it.

    - - -

    The bottom line is if you like Kevlar use it.

    I used to be a huge fan of Kevlar until I realized what it did to my arm. I used to hybrid it with Forten Sweet and it hit great. However, the downside is the effect of Kevlar on soft tissue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  7. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    From Wikipedia :

    Kevlar is the stiffest, most durable synthetic string available,[13] and is thus extremely hard to break. Although it is one of the best strings in terms of tension holding capability (next to natural gut), it is the most dangerous string when it comes to developing tennis elbow. Kevlar is often strung with another string, such as nylon[9]), in order to combine both strings' qualities, as Kevlar by itself feels too stiff for many tennis players, especially when combined with a stiff racquet. Some advocate using a very thin gauge Kevlar for increasing comfort, but even in the thinnest gauge it is a stiff string. Another strategy to increase comfort and improve rebound efficiency is to string Kevlar at a low tension.


    **** I find it strange how no one ever thought to hybrid with gut before???? Why??? I can't be the first ?

    From physics and technology of tennis.....Howard Brody

    STRING TENSION LOSS
    Poly 10-14% (8-17% extremes)
    Nylon 8-10 (7-12%)
    Kevlar 6-10 (6-11%)
    Gut 7-9 (6-9%)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  8. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    W
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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  9. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Thanks for that....I don't get it either?

    Kevlar is bad for the arm if not used correctly as is poly.

    A full bed of poly strung very tight is not good for tennis elbow either!!

    Many people string poly at lower tensions and hybrid with gut.....

    Why not use the same care with Kevlar??? Simply string at a lower tension and hybrid with gut just like you would with poly.......I don't get why this is not done.

    Every post I see is about Kevlar mix with synthetic gut which is nylon!

    I swear string companies should be sued for using the term "synthetic gut" ....it is absolutely misleading. Synthetic gut is NYLON !!
     
  10. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    This thread has forced me to learn more and more about Kevlar.....

    The trick with Kevlar is to know how to string it :

    1- lower tension

    2- in my opinion mix with GUT...why would anyone use synthetic gut a.k.a nylon is beyond me??The strange thing is how everyone hybrids with nylon....and that's what is recommended everywhere as well...weird???

    3- string the crosses 8- 10 pounds tighter than the mains. Here's what I just found on the net:

    There's generally a trade-off between resiliency and durability. The most durable strings, such as Kevlar, are extremely stiff. Highly resilient and/or thinner strings, which many players find offer a better feel, tend to break faster. Many strings have durability and resiliency (or playability) ratings on the package.
    For example: if durability is a must with a moderately stiff string bed, use Kevlar main strings with synthetic gut cross strings. (Mains wear out much faster than crosses and are almost always the ones that break.) String the crosses 8-10 pounds tighter than the mains so that the stiff Kevlar in the mains won't prevent the more resilient crosses from providing some rebound effect on the ball. If the Kevlar were as tight as the synthetic gut, its stiffness would not let the ball ever "get to" the synthetic gut. (why does everyone use synthetic gut which is just nylon instead of real gut???? I feel like I invented this hybrid?? )
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  11. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I've tried it with a very soft nylon (Forten Sweet) and it still gave me TE. I doubt gut would be any better. I loved the feel but my arm could not take it.
     
  12. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    did you really just use wiki as a source?
     
  13. StringingIrvine

    StringingIrvine Semi-Pro

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    I didn't read the entire thread so I i'm not sure if this was stated before.

    I don't think anyone has tried to hybrid kevlar and gut as it kevlar is so stiff it doesn't matter what string you use to hybrid it.

    If kevlar has no elasticity when you string it, i'd assume that it definately does not have any elasticity during ball impact.

    The kevlar mains are not going to stretch at all, what is the point of putting super soft cross string because the kevlar is not going to allow the crosses to stretch either. So if thats the case why the hell wouldn't i just put some cheap nylon in it?

    Imagine the extremes.. If i'm stringing my racket with steel cables on the mains (that do not deform on impact), and I put yarn in the crosses, the bed will still be super stiff because the steel's stiffness will trump the yarn.
     
  14. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Its a great example and a great point. I actually spoke to a guy who sells strings about that issu. Im not allowed to say his name....but a hint is that it sounds like dennis the meance.

    he said the same exact thing as you did. He used a different example....he said say you mix concrete with straw....its still going to be hard as a rock.

    You both are absolutely correct!!! But then I found the trick......

    what you need to do is string the mains 10 pounds looser than the crosses.....I got the idea from reading this on the internet. I posted it before but this time ill put it in quotes so you know I didnt write it (forgot where I got it from):

    now if we follow the above logic then the same principles would apply to real gut as synthetic gut(can we please call it nylon!!...pet peev).

    and it works...I tried it. the result is incredible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  15. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Trust me Nylon and gut are quite different....I dont think theres a comparison. Its like having sex with a rubber doll or a real live woman.

    in both instances you are having sex....but you would have to admit theres a huge difference.

    but please remember the key here is to string the mains at least 10 pounds looser than the crosses.....also rememebr that the mains should not be higher than 55 pounds.....in fact i would go rela low like 40-45 pounds for the mains and 50-55 pounds for the crosses.

    try it just once ....if it doesnt work for you then cut the strings out.
     
  16. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    In theory (or hypothesis :)) you are right, but in reality those assumptions aren't true. Even the steel string will deform on impact. So does the kevlar and even more so with stretch crosses.

    And TDK is talking about LOW tension. It seems like everyone strung up kevlar at their normal tension and is drawing conclusions from that. Conclusions that are probably good ones. Bud is a great example. I wonder if he tried sub 40lb tensions. He liked the kevlar but not what it did to his arm. I bet he would like a lower tension.

    I play with 32lbs these days down from 63lbs. Always hit the ball hard and need a powerless racket and string which is one of the reasons Kevlar is great for me. Now at low tensions I still get the same stiff string bed that I like, though it is not as stiff and with the right crosses you can get some good ball pocketing and feel while still getting that stiff " I can hit out all day" feeling. Its a win for me since I have the best of both worlds. And well it is cheaper and more durable and lasts alot longer.

    I know, 32 is crazy right? But with other strings it is true, but kevlar is stiff so it doesnt play like 32!
     
  17. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    32 is NOT crazy at all......I love it!!! I heard of one pro on the tour that plays with 25.

    Look kevlar is stiff....no question....but lets face it....Polyester is not exactly soft either. And a lot of people mix poly with gut dont they? So why not Kevlar?

    Again the key here is to string the crosses tighter than the mains by 10 pounds

    I figure if I say this enough times then someone will get it and comment....lol
     
  18. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    that would warp the frame over time for sure
     
  19. The Dark Knight

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    I change sticks so quickly it doesnt matter :)

    seriously I dont think it would at all because Kevalr at 45 is as tight as gut at 55.....kevlar strings up tighter.
     
  20. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    so many racquets a year do you go through?
     
  21. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Why?? Because of the stretchyness of gut?
     
  22. Matchball

    Matchball Semi-Pro

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    Hey, without diverting too much, has anyone tried a string with vectran?
     
  23. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    well its not my idea....I got it from the net . Apparently if the mains are loose then the "rebound" qualities of gut touch the ball. hard to explain but here is the better explanation from the net (note they use synthetic gut.....why not just use gut??? its baffling?)

     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  24. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    OH WOW!!! just looked it up.....sounds amazing...stiffer than kevlar? did you like it?
     
  25. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    :shock::shock::shock:
     
  26. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    These quotes are from 2008:

    We've all done these things years ago :)

    I've tried Kevlar as low as 20 lbs and it still hurt my arm. It's the stiffness and it may also be the type of vibrations from the material.

    When I was enamored with Kevlar I'd only been playing tennis for about 1.5 years. Many of my Kevlar posts are pre-tennis elbow. I finally figured out that the Kevlar was destroying my elbow.

    - -

    As I stated earlier - there is a reason most players no longer use Kevlar. It kills soft tissue when used in a tennis racquet. Use it at your own risk. However, if you start feeling twinges or pain in your wrist, arm or shoulder - stop using it immediately.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  27. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Well a couple of things.....

    1-The fact is Kevlar loses very little tension . It's second only to gut.

    2- he doesn't say how he strung it which is the key. For all
    We know it could have been a full set of kevlar .

    3- he did not hybrid it with gut

    4- he did not make the tension of the crosses 10 pounds higher than the mains.

    5- not all elbows are equal. A lot of people cannot handle poly either and yet people still use it.

    *** kevlar really depends on how you string it . And I believe I may be the first person to ever try the differential In tensions combined with natural gut.
    No one has tried this and therefore no one can say if it works for them or not except me.

    ***** this is a strange sport .....anything new or different is first met with resistance . This is what happened when graphite first came on the market then
    Even oversized was not accepted at first . In fact polyester itself has been around since the 70's but only now has been accepted.

    ***** finally polyester is not good for the arm . I can show you thousand of posts from people who experienced tennis elbow from poly. In fact I would not recommend stringing a full bed of poly at a
    High tension either.

    Why don't you just try my set up once instead of approaching with a closed mind?
     
  28. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Those quotes are from ME (not he) :)

    I've tried many setups with Kevlar and can no longer use it. I'm reluctant to risk a recurrence of TE.

    I've tried Kevlar strung in the 20# range, full Kevlar and hybrid of many tension up into the mid 50's.

    It bothered my arm even strung as a low-tension hybrid. I can't see gut making any difference in the comfort.

    I do have some old packages of Gaucho gut - so I may give it a try.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  29. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    since you change racquets so quickly tdn, how many do you go through a year?
     
  30. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Ok....then you have decided . Maybe it's not right for you.....I don't know? Every elbow is different ......some people can't take poly......

    But ask yourself.....why would I lie? Obviously I really believe in this......the racquet feels comfortable and I have never played better in my life......I swear to you.

    But if it gave you a horrible experience and you are scared to ever go back I understand.......

    Just please understand that I am suggesting something different ....not just gut but making the tensions different on cross and mains.

    It works for me .....I think it MIGHT work for you But I don't know? You are the best judge.
     
  31. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Omg.....you don't want to know,,,,seriously I have so many racquets it's embarrassing .
     
  32. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    anyone using kev in this day and age gets what he deserves. a busted arm
     
  33. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

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    yes I know. I now have visions of the dark night in his dark dungeon with his blow up doll.
     
  34. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Well I guess everyone is different. I can't imagine 20lbs hurting my arm if 32 doesnt. I dont think I could play without a stiff stringbed. I tried stringing some syngut at 30lbs when I bought my stringer as a test. I couldnt hit that well with the syngut that low. The main draw for the kev is that it stays stiff. Even at higher tensions most strings are stiff for only a while.

    Anyhow you have to protect your arm and if you can't play with kevlar than by all means dont.
     
  35. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Bud!!!,

    Look at what I found from 2008'......apparently the Kevlar package actually says you are supposed to string the mains and crosses with a tension differential!!!

    You and most everyone have been stringing Kevlar wrong ! You have never gotten the benefits of the soft string.......I'm telling put in gut and string the mains 10-12 pounds tighter than the mains!

    Check it out:


     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  36. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Don't forget the above quote PLEASE


    Ok I got a lot more support and what I have found out is that I have re-invented the wheel. This idea was used by Andre Agassi !!! remember the key is to string the crosses 10 pounds tighter than the mains as Agassi did !! And of course hybrid with gut as Agassi did


     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  37. The Dark Knight

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    The 42/48 differential is great but I would go as far as a 10 pound tension differential as the ashaway packaging suggests.
     
  38. The Dark Knight

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    Great great post.

    Agassi did in fact use the set up but again the 10 pound differential is the key....even the packaging says so !
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  39. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    After continuing my experimenting with kevlar/mgz, I've found that performance is best with a tension differential of at least 10 lbs in the opposite direction (mains much tighter than crosses, as in my sig). I created a thread on how to optimize this concept, which I called ESP (for Extraordinary Spin Potential). I won't make any claims about arm safety (since I personally use a heavy high-sw racquet that's arm-safe even with the stiffest of stringbeds), but ESP is the way to go if better combination of spin and control is what you seek. It allows great spin without having to compromise directional control because the launch angle is lower than with a softer stringbed.
     
  40. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Thanks for that!!!

    I re invented the wheel.....now I see that my ideas have been used before.

    Great to be validated....finally!
     
  41. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Chill before you burst a vessel :mrgreen:

    TDK, I've been stringing my frames with different string and/or tensions (overall, mains, crosses, etc.) for years - both for play and for testing and curiosity. You are not the first to do this - although you seem to think you are :smile:

    I've tried Kevlar strung so many different ways I lost count. The bottom line is Kevlar is simply too harsh for MY arm. If you like it, then use it.

    You may want to spend some time poking through old threads in this forum.

    Travlerajm stated he strings the mains tighter than the crosses - which is the opposite of what you're desperately trying to convince us to do. Again, many of us have been fiddling around with strings and frames years before you joined this forum. However, if you like that setup then use it.

     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  42. The Dark Knight

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    That's fine .....you don't have to use it .....but did you have to start an idiotic poll on what people think of Kevlar??? What the hell does that have to do with this.

    Again I thought I was the first and realized that I was not....that's why I said reinvention of the wheel . I then found out it was Agassi who actually did this .....worked for him fine.

    You have not tried it with gut ever so how can you even comment? Synthetic guy is nothing more than nylon .....if your mit going to use gut then at least use a multi because nylon is just not nearly as close to gut as multi . Nothing however is better than gut

    Maybe mains work tighter for travel .....the point is you need a 10 pound differential which you have also never tried . But instead of attacking me for something you are to stubborn to try you should actually read what I wrote. The tension differential is not my idea....it's the actual directions on the kevlar package .....they say the same thing!!! So all those kevlar set ups that you say you have tried all been wrong :

    Bud!!!,

    Look at what I found from 2008'......apparently the Kevlar package actually says you are supposed to string the mains and crosses with a tension differential!!!

    You and most everyone have been stringing Kevlar wrong ! You have never gotten the benefits of the soft string.......I'm telling put in gut and string the mains 10-12 pounds tighter than the mains!

    Check it out:


    So before starting an absolutely idiotic poll that has nothing to do with what I proposed first try it or if not then with all due respect shut up because you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  43. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Still thinking about/using Kevlar?
    Try Tour bite soft 17. I've just hit my "tennis nirvana" with it.
    If you string it loose, it's a powerful string. 2 kilos more and it is a low powered string. In both cases it is pretty soft on my elbow and it gives me godly spin that last 8 hours.
    For anyone having a stringing machine or enough money for stringing every 10 hours, it is a superb string, you will forget what a kevlar hybrid is after 5 minutes with it ;)
     
  44. The Dark Knight

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    What is tour bite made of ?
     
  45. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    don't use profanity on here or insult others, it will get you banned.
     
  46. Bhairava

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    it is a poly on the softer side of the category ;)
    I've tried kevlar in two hybrids and it kill my arm& it give little pace and medium spin to my shots. Poly like tb soft gives very good power,insane spin, and decent softness to elbow; it just need to be restrung every 10 hours. ;)
     
  47. The Dark Knight

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    Impossible to use profanity on TW.
     
  48. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Hey Bud,

    Glad you tried it. Just strung up a kev/poly at 20/35 but I skipped every other cross for a 14x9 pattern.

    I am curious about your setup. What racket are you using? What grips, vibration devices, etc. Even more curious because you described ZX as harsh. Its hard to get my head around that. I did get some vibes I didnt dig from the ZX but I havent heard many describe it as harsh, usually just the opposite.

    I think I might have an idea of the vibes you are talking about perhaps.

    When I went down to low tensions the racket would vibrate very differently on framed shots. It was like an earthquake of the racket. I NEVER had anything like with higher tensions of kevlar. I tried a full bed of syngut at 30lbs and sure enough I had similar vibes. So IMHO what I was feeling had to do with the racket and low tensions, not the string. I fixed it by changing the resonance frequency of the racket with plastidip.

    THis is what is cool about tennis: EVERYONE is different....
     
  49. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    "That's fine .....you don't have to use it .....but did you have to start an idiotic poll on what people think of Kevlar??? What the hell does that have to do with this."

    everyone is entitled to their own thoughts. they can also create a thread as long as it follows tws' rules.

    with that being said, why not just try to be semi civil and get along instead of arguing.
     
  50. Dimcorner

    Dimcorner Professional

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    Just went a round with Kevlar @ 48 and ZX at 50.

    Feels very low powered but frigging accurate. Balls initially landing short but compensated with height and extra spin. Much harder to sail. The ball long now and spin is still there.

    It was actually comfortable enough for me to play without damper. Serves we're good with nice kick and good directional control which more than made up for loss of pace. I'll play with it for a little longer to see but do far not bad.

    Also at net it was great because of the angles I was getting and the bite on the ball.
     

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