This is the real GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Headshotterer, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Emerson was the best amateur player in 1961 on my list, although not by much. We can say that Laver was injured in their Australian Championships final in Melbourne, but this doesn't change the fact that Laver lost the match and Emerson won the match.
     
    #51
  2. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Uh no, we don't downplay the results. Results are results.
     
    #52
  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The players themselves downplay the results from injuries.
    For example, Gonzales claimed that the only player to beat him in a head to head tour was Hoad in 1959.
    Did he forget about Kramer in 1949-50? No, but Gonzales won eight of the twelve matches he and Kramer played in California, and Gonzales' knee injury caused the lopsided final score on that tour. Gonzales had an edge on Kramer in tournament play, so he DOWNGRADED the 1949-50 tour.
    I think most people write off Nadal's poor play when he is clearly injured.
     
    #53
  4. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    To we have to go over this again? Gonzales was talking about when he the best player in the world, and he wasn't that at the time of his 1950 tour against Kramer, as Kramer was the best player in the world at that time. Also, that 1959 tour wasn't just with Gonzales and Hoad, but was a 4-man tour consisting of Gonzales, Hoad, Cooper and Anderson, and Gonzales won the tour.
     
    #54
  5. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Gonzales and Hoad regarded it as a hth tour. So did Time magazine.
    Gonzales made no qualifications, such as "during my reign as world champion", or anything like that.
    He also said in the same interview, "Kramer wasn't too fast or too quick, but he had the knack of winning", not mentioning the 1949-50 tour.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
    #55
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    It's very interesting: Budge needed his nose to win...
     
    #56
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    We ignore the injury in counting the result. The result is the thing. I wrote it in the other post. You just didn't see it. Check it out. You even quoted the post.

    If a player is injury prone do we just count the results when he or she is healthy? Of course not.

    In NFL football teams have injuries all the time. If the New England Patriots lose their all time great Quarterback Tom Brady to an injury and they lose because of it, the NFL counts it as a loss in the standings and that same philosophy should be taken in pro tennis.
     
    #57
  8. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The question I asked was, do we ignore the injury to LAVER and give EMERSON the number one rating for 1961? Because this is the implication of what you are saying, just as you would give Perry number one for 1941.
     
    #58
  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I'm going to be as clear as I possibly can be. Emerson won the Australian over Laver in 1961. If Rod was injured well tough luck Emerson won it fair and square. You don't give Laver brownie points if he was hurt. So for the rankings Emerson's win over Laver at the Australian in 1961 should be taken into account. You don't count a possible Laver's injury as a factor for Emerson winning. You don't downgrade Emerson's win. Emerson's win in the Australian should be in Emerson's favor when the final rankings are considered.

    As far as the final rankings are concerned well that's up to the people deciding at the time but the Aussie should be in favor of Emerson.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
    #59
  10. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I think Emmo beat Laver in the U.S. Nationals that year too.
     
    #60
  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, he did. Emerson beat Laver 7-5, 6-3, 6-2 in the 1961 US Championships final.
     
    #61
  12. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    And Emmo was the big man in the Davis Cup final, winning three matches.
    I guess PC1 would give the 1961 number one spot to Emmo.
     
    #62
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I don't know how pc1 will decide. I rank Laver and Emerson equal No. 1 for 1961.
     
    #63
  14. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Don't answer for me. I did NOT write that.

    Incidentally was Hoad ever dominant in any year outside of the amateurs? Give me his record in his most dominant year.
    Did he ever had any year like Tilden in his best years or let's say McEnroe in 1984? How about Connors in 1974?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
    #64
  15. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Thank you for the interesting question.
    No, Hoad never, as an amateur or pro, dominated a year like Tilden did in the early twenties, when there was no real competition.
    I would suggest that Hoad's year in 1959 was superior to any other year by another player, winning two pro majors and a head to head with Gonzales, including the overall Ampol world championship against a tougher field than McEnroe or Connors faced. The strength of the field was unparalleled.
     
    #65
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Interesting you wrote that.

    Let's look at 1959 from Joe's book. These are the tournaments Hoad entered.

    Victorian Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Trabert after a bye.
    Loss to Gonzalez next round.
    Loss to Segura for third place

    Queensland Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Cooper in first round
    Loss to Trabert in the next round.
    Gonzalez beat Hoad for third place

    Western Australian Pro Champs
    Impressive win.
    Hoad beat Segura, Rosewall and Cooper to win the tournament

    NSW Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Anderson in the quarters after a bye
    Loss to Gonzalez in the next round.
    Rosewall beat Hoad for third place

    South Australian Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Rose, Trabert and Rosewall to win the tournament

    World Pro Champs also US Pro
    Hoad beat Riggs in quarters after bye
    Hoad beat Segura
    Hoad lost to Gonzalez in straights

    Masters Round Robin
    Gonzalez and Hoad finished with identical w-l if 5-1 but Gonzalez won the tournament because he defeated Hoad

    O'Keefe Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Rose in the first round
    Sedgman beat Hoad in semi
    Gonzalez won the tournament by beating Sedgman

    Tournament of Champions
    Impressive win by Hoad in defeating Anderson, Rosewall and Gonzalez to win the tournament

    Hoad played a tour which according to McCauley was won by Trabert. Rosewall and Sedgman also played.

    French Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Molloy in the first round easily
    Hoad beat Rose in the quarters
    Hoad lost to Sedgman in four sets in the semi.
    Trabert won the tournament over Sedgman
    Hoad beat Rosewall for third

    London Pro Indoor Champs at Wembley
    Hoad beat Horn-first round
    Hoad lost to Segura in the quarters
    Hoad beat Rose for fifth

    Paris Round Robin
    Hoad finished with a 1-2 record with Sedgman, Rosewall and Trabert participating. Sedgman won the tournament with a 3-0 record with Rosewall second at 2-1.


    South Australian Round Robin
    Hoad won with a 3-0 record Sedgman 2-1 Gonzalez 1-2 and Hartwig 0-3

    NSW Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Rose in the first round
    Hoad beat Anderson in the Semi
    Hoad lost to Gonzalez in the final in straight sets

    Queensland Pro Champs
    Hoad beat Cooper in the first round
    Rosewall beat Hoad in the semi
    Rosewall beat Gonzalez in the final

    Judge for yourself if 1959 is dominant.

    Yes I didn't include the tour but you already know the record there which is 42-20 won-lost with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper. Gonzalez finished 47-15 but lost his head to head 13-15 to Hoad.

    Incidentally which two Pro Majors did he win?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
    #66
  17. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    We should be careful about quoting from "Joe's book", which is short on some information.
    You left out the Kooyong championship of January 1960, which was the final event of the 1959 Ampol World Championship and determined the final division of the bonus money pool. This was part of the 1959 season.
    You have reported more than one event from the Grand Prix de Europe, which was a separate series of events won by Sedgman. The "tour won by Trabert" and the "Paris Round Robin" were constituent events of the Grand Prix de Europe, not final championship events. Gonzales did not participate, and was resting in America.
    The designated Ampol world championship events did not include the Grand Prix de Europe, the Cleveland Arena championship, the Wembley championship, the latter two events outside the Kramer management. The Ampol series of 14 tournaments was officially constituted to determine an overall world champion, as detailed in World Tennis magazine (presumably related to World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization).
    The Forest Hills event and the Kooyong event were the most prominent venues in their respective countries and carried the most prestige.
    As I have pointed out earlier, the final tally showed that Hoad finished first with 6 victories in 14 tournaments, Gonzales with 4 victories, Rosewall with 2, Sedgman with 1, Trabert with 1.
    In addition Gonzales is on record as stating, "the only player to beat me in a head to head tour was Hoad in 1959".
    Is this a dominant year? Yes, by any normal standard, the best year ever.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
    #67
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You blame Rosewall for having lost TWO matches to Laver in their 1963 series (Rosewall won 11:2) but neglect all the MANY losses (listed by pc1) Hoad suffered from several players in 1959. It's disgusting. If you were a professional historian, you would lose your job immediately!

    Learn history!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #68
  19. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Budge lost that match not so much because he couldn't dive, but because he was just out of the hospital for facial surgery to repair the nose, which had been broken in a fall in a New York hotel some weeks before: http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...BAJ&dq=fred-perry-beats-budge&pg=4091,2641342.

    The troupe was in the NY area in the first week of May so presumably Budge was injured then. The tour made at least two more stops (Rock Hill and Birmingham) before concluding on May 10. Budge then underwent surgery and a two-week hospital stay, losing to Faunce at the US Pro in late May and to Perry at Forest Hills on June 6.
     
    #69
  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Guys you saw some of the information on Hoad's year in my previous post 66 in this thread. Does it look like a dominant year? Need opinions.
     
    #70
  21. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    How about Laver in:

    1961: 16 titles
    1962: 22 titles (incl. amateur G.S.)
    1964: 11 titles
    1965: 17 titles
    1966: 16 titles
    1967: 19 titles
    1968: 13 titles
    1969: 18 titles (incl. open G.S.)
    1970: 15 titles
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #71
  22. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Given, that Hoad had strong opposition in 1959 and was about even with Gonzalez for the year, but it wasn't a dominant year by any means. Hoad in his best days was a beast. I have not seen enough - only short clips and longer clips from his DC Match with Trabert - to make a final judgement on his peak ability, but all contemporaries were in awe. In day in, day out play Hoad wasn't the best. His most dominant year was probably 1956, when he won the lot on the amateur tour, including a near Grand Slam and the European clay triple. But even as amateur, he wasn't unbeatable over a longer period of time. Even in 1957, he had a long losing streak in spring before peaking again at Wimbledon. After Wimbledon he lost 2-14 on his pro debute.
     
    #72
  23. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Here's the stats
    Hoad in tournament play in 1959 according to McCauley
    Three tournaments won in thirteen attempts.
    A 25-14 record.

    If you count the tournament in early 1960 as part of 1959
    Then it's four tournaments in fourteen attempts
    A 29-15 record.

    He lost a tour in which Trabert, Rosewall and Sedgman participated.

    He finished 42-20 on a tour with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper
    Gonzalez had the best record at 47-15 on this tour but lost 13-15 to Hoad in their individual encounters. Cooper was third at 21-40 and Anderson was fourth at 13-48.

    There was also another tour in Stockholm, Gothenburg, Oslo, Lyon, Marseille and Berlin. Hoad finished third. Sedgman won with 18 wins, 9 losses followed closely by Rosewall with 17 wins, 10 losses, Hoad far behind with 11 and Trabert trailing everyone with 8.

    Is this a dominant year?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #73
  24. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Funny how Margaret Court has long been forgotten in this thread.
     
    #74
  25. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Cannot understand your point.
    In the Ampol series of 14 tournaments to decide the world champion, Hoad finished the year with the best record by far.
    Rosewall was in the 1959 Ampol series, and won two tournaments, while Hoad won six. Rosewall was probably at his absolute peak in the late fifties.
    Is this difficult to understand?
    Laver played well early in the 1963 series, and won the most important match of the series at Kooyong, a televised event, against Rosewall. Laver became exhausted from the schedule after a while.
     
    #75
  26. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    C'mon, you missed the final tournament of the season, and you did not identify the constituents of the Ampol World Championship. Those are crucial pieces of information which you did not include.
     
    #76
  27. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Laver played only four head to head series during these years against the likes of Rosewall and Hoad, and lost all four of them, three in 1963 and one in 1964. Plus a private series against Hoad in 1963 and 1964, the second of which he won.
    Not overwhelming.
     
    #77
  28. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Again, some matches are worth more than others.
    In early 1957, he was in a BODY CAST for six weeks...difficult to play like that.
    In 1958 and 1959 he won the officially constituted world championship, more convincingly in 1959.
    Winning six designated events (out of a total of 14) plus a head to head series, including the top tournament of the decade makes for a dominant year, and the best year ever by a player.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #78
  29. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Agreed!

    10concurrences
     
    #79
  30. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Your stats are off again.
    SIX tournaments ON THE AMPOL TOUR, all listed in McCauley.
    1) Perth Jan.26-30
    2) Adelaide Feb. 11-14
    3) Forest Hills June 23-28
    4) Perth Nov. 26-28
    5) Adelaide Dec. 1-6
    6) Kooyong Jan. 1-7
    Following the Kooyong event, the Ampol final results were tallied and bonus money divided, as reported in New York Times and London Times, World Tennis, etc.
    The Trabert, Rosewall, Sedgman tour also included Mervyn Rose, was in FEBRUARY, and in NEW ZEALAND. These pros were not involved in the American four-man tour with Hoad and Gonzales. What is your point here?
    You have not restricted your match tally to the Ampol series, which constituted the events for the world championship.
    Hoad was clearly overtennised on the European phase of the year, but showed up anyway. Gonzales rested after the gruelling American tour.
     
    #80
  31. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    This thread is becoming a joke.
     
    #81
  32. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You know how threads get sometimes when some posters have certain agendas. Disagreements arise and this happens.

    Anyway to get back to the topic and to point this fact out again, Court has super qualifications to be the GOAT. She won the most majors although people complain about the amount of Australians she won. She won the most tournaments. She has an incredible lifetime winning percentage of around 92 or 93 percent. She was dominant over an excellent field.

    I've noticed that many like King don't mention Court when she talks about potential GOATs. Opinions of players shouldn't be involved in this. Court has the record.
     
    #82
  33. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Is it a dominant year? Overtennised is not exactly what I call a great excuse. Laver played a ton of tournaments and had great years. For example in 1967 he played 120 matches but won 18 of 32 tournaments plus the Pro Grand Slam and the Wimbledon Pro. This is a dominant year. This was also true of some others in the past. I ask you, is it a dominant year and why? I understand you think so and I'm not ruling it out but give me some more reasons.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #83
  34. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Court and King are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, and Court has expressed her dissatisfaction with this.
     
    #84
  35. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    And it's a shame that should be that way.
     
    #85
  36. Dan Lobb

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    Now, there you go again.
    There was no "Pro Slam" in 1967, Laver never mentioned it, nor anyone else. Where was the Roland Garros event? And Wembley was like Wimbledon? Hardly.
    Laver played poorly in head to heads. Where was his head to head tour in 1967? Or 1969? At least Borg and McEnroe played a head to head series in 1981, and Federer and Sampras in 2009 (?).
    Again, let me quote Gonzales about 1959,
    "The only player who beat me in a head to head tour was Hoad in 1959, 15 to 13. During that tour, Hoad produced the greatest tennis that I have ever seen. I had blisters under my blisters from the punishment. After that tour, his back bothered him so much that he lost his desire to practise."
    This was the same year that Hoad won the Ampol world championship in tournament play, winning the biggest tournament, perhaps of all time, at Forest Hills.
    Together, this looks like the best year ever by anyone. Again, the calibre of play and opposition is unequalled.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #86
  37. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Evonne Goolagong didn't know she was number one either in the 1970's but she was. The Pro Slam is a name some tennis historians have called Laver's feat of winning the three pro majors of the French Pro, Wembley and the US Pro. Laver also won the first and only Wimbledon Pro that year.

    Incidentally what are you, Ronald Reagan?

    Okay if you feel that Hoad had the best year ever, fine. I think Hoad (and others in the Old Pro Tour) played perhaps the toughest competition in the history of tennis.


    Limpinhitter is correct. This is not where we should be discussing Hoad. Start another thread for this if you want but I'm done discussing it in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #87
  38. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree totally.

    In 1956 Hoad dominated till Wimbledon. In the second part of the year he was totally overshadowed by Rosewall losing to him not only at the US Champ.s but also twice in Australia.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #88
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I'm sorry to answer Dan for the umpteenth time but his stubborness regarding praising Hoad (and also belittleing Rosewall) with wrong facts is too much for me... But I will stop answering rather soon (still today).

    1) All experts agree that the World Series (won by Gonzalez) were the official event to determine the world's best.

    2) I contradict that the Forest Hills 1959 event was the top tournament of the decade. Even though it was great there also were some equal events. For instance I rate the F.H. of 1957 and 1958 higher because it was a round robin where every player had to play all other greats!!

    3) Hoad's 1959 the best ever year by a player? I don't want to insult you but you seem to by crazy...
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #89
  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You confused the Februar tour with the much more important Grand Prix where Hoad finished at third place! pc1 has given you details.
     
    #90
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    1) Forest Hills is the best tournament of 1959.

    2) Forest Hills is the best t. of the decade

    3) Forest Hills is the best t. of all time.

    4) You forgot: Forest Hills is greater than the universe...
     
    #91
  42. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Edit-Not worth discussing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #92
  43. Dan Lobb

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    1) No, in World Tennis magazine, (the official publication of World Tennis Inc., Kramer's organization), Anderson points out that Ampol, the giant oil company, had formed a partnership with the Kramer tour to determine an overall world champion on the basis of 14 designated tournaments.
    I still do not see how you can ignore this, since it was accepted by New York Times, London Times, Toronto Star, etc.

    2) Yes, the 1957 and 1958 Forest Hills were great, but in 1957 Hoad was a green rookie, and required several weeks to find his game at the pro level.
    In 1958, Gonzales won the decider against Rosewall in a great match 19-17, 5-7, 6-4, but lost an even greater match to Hoad (according to Allison Danzig) 15-13, 3-6, 4-6. These results leave the outcome a little uncertain, and a knockout format is superior to determine a clear winner. There were only six pros in the 1957 Forest Hills, and seven in the 1958.
    In 1959, there were ten players, all champions (even Giammalva won a pro tournament in 1959, beating both Budge and Riggs). Thus, a larger and stronger field than previously. The matches were all played at a high level, and were best-of-five sets in the semis and final.

    3) As a special favour to you, I am going to calculate the wins and losses on the 1959 Ampol championship tour, and include also the American four-man results to give a clearer picture of Hoad's achievement that year.
    Stay tuned!
     
    #93
  44. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Once again stating your guesses as if they were facts. This "private" series of '63 is your own invention. Unlike the tour in '64, which Andrew Tas found in reports from the time, there were no reports in '63 documenting a "private" series between Hoad and Laver. Nothing.

    You know that -- and yet you list a '63 Laver/Hoad series as if it were fact. You know that you've built the entire story out of a mere number, given decades later -- yet you don't give the slightest indication of this.

    BobbyOne is right, if you did this as a professional historian you wouldn't last a minute.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #94
  45. BTURNER

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    There are few enough threads devoted to women of the stature of Court, Bueno or King. Why would you guys feel the need to hijack it for Laver, Hoad, Rosewall, Federer, Nadal and Gonzales? This derailment started on page 2 and a couple of folks mentioned it. .These men ain't got enough real estate on former player pages? Court deserves more respect, not less. The woman was by any definition a monumental figure in tennis history. I think even our most knowledgeable posters need a reminder occasionally that great women in the sport's history, deserve great treatment. Neglect from lack of interest is the market at work here, but this was - worse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #95
  46. Dan Lobb

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    This "mere number" was an eyewitness account by the Rocket himself, plus an eyewitness account by Buchholz. These are facts by any reckoning.
     
    #96
  47. Dan Lobb

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    Yes, Court is the victim of blacklisting due to political reasons.
     
    #97
  48. BTURNER

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    No Dan, inadvertant sexism. Folks stopped debating Court or King's or Navratilova's political ideas, religion or orientation views pages ago and at the same time they dismissed virtually any mention of those women at all. The irony was that some discussed how forgotten and neglected Court was. Here she wasn't neglected for Evert, Navratilova, Graf or Serena. This was the same neglect she and King got in the 1960's by a chauvinist media while winning all those majors.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #98
  49. Dan Lobb

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    Here we are, the complete listing of the Ampol World Championship results for 1958 and 1959.
    Both tours were won by Hoad, with Gonzales finishing second.
    For 1958:
    Hoad had 13 wins and 10 losses
    Against Gonzales 3 wins 1 defeat
    Against Rosewall 1 win 3 defeats
    Against Sedgman 2 wins 1 defeat
    Against Trabert 2 wins 3 defeats

    Of the five tournaments, each player and Segura won one tournament each.

    For 1959, on the American championship tour
    Hoad defeated all three opponents:
    15 to 13 against Gonzales
    9 to 5 against Anderson
    18 to 2 against Cooper
    This was not a true round-robin series, as Hoad and Gonzales played 28 times against each other, and only 34 times against the two rookies combined. The idea was to provide each stop on the tour with a Hoad/Gonzales match, and it was really more of a head to head tour, according to Gonzales and Hoad themselves.

    The 1959 Ampol World Championship results:
    Hoad won the tour with six tournament wins, four for Gonzales, two for Rosewall, one for Sedgman, one for Trabert.
    Hoad had 34 wins and 13 losses
    Against Gonzales 3 wins and 5 defeats
    Against Rosewall 6 wins and 2 defeats
    Against Sedgman 5 wins and 2 defeats
    Against Trabert 3 wins and 1 defeat

    In this company, a record of 34 and 13 is exceptional.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    #99
  50. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

    Joined:
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    Wow!! You are an ass. You could have started a new thread. Didn't give a ****.
     

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