This is the real GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Headshotterer, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Hey, I am just responding to others. Don't shoot the messenger.
     
  2. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Remember this post? This is where we got started down the track.
    This was a very pointed question, and I responded to the challenge.
     
  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    My wife doesn't think I am a male chauvinist.
     
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    There was a time when women champions had a much richer personality than men
     
  5. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    It is a legitimate point. Court had a great career. However, but for the AO, she won 13 major titles. And, she played in an era where many of the best players didn't play the AO at all. It truly was a non-major major.

    By comparison:
    Steffi Graf - 18 non-AO majors
    Chris Evert - 16 non-AO majors
    Martina Navratilova - 15 non-AO majors
    Billie Jean King - 11 non-AO majors
     
  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    A Pro Slam is a Pro Slam. Whether anyone "mentions" it is largely irrelevant. Laver was notorious about not blowing his own horn.
    Fed and Sampras played a H2H in 2009?

    I thought Sampras retired. Oh, you mean their exhibition match series--hardly a H2H.
     
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You're trying to throw the blame onto me. Nice. You could have set up a link to a new thread if need be and we all could try to exchange information.

    Fine here's a few of your posts PRIOR to my post in which I asked you to tell me how truly dominant Hoad was.

    I did not start bringing Hoad into the thread, you did. It's pointless to discuss this but I thought I'd point out that I didn't brought Lew Hoad into this thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    The odd-discussion started much earlier (page 2).
     
  9. Dan Lobb

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    Fine. I have transferred the discussion to another thread, and am awaiting your reaction to my compilation of 1959 records.
     
  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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  11. BTURNER

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    Problem is you are not deciding 'major' status by percentage of top ten or top twenty attendance or other objective criteria, but the name of the event. Some of those RG titles you are giving credit for, were not much better attended than the Australians you aren't. And let's be candid, Margaret so dominated tennis and HTH's several of those years, it wouldn't have mattered who showed or didn't she would have won at least half of them even if every woman in the world attended. If you give here 'half credits' for Australians you got a GOAT contender.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    In fact some have attended that the Australian was so badly attended at times because some did not want to play Court on her home (no pun intended) court.
     
  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nothing against Court but many have said her 11 AO titles were against a very weak field. I think she gets more credits than she deserve, because some people hold her record against the current female players.
     
  14. BTURNER

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    When I looked at draws, usually one or two name non Australian players would travel for the down under circuit (not that she necessarily met them in her draw), but usually not more. If you throw half of her 11 in the toilet, you have a GOAT.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    She won the Grand Slam in 1970, won over 200 tournaments and won three majors in a years several times. She won around 92 or 93 percent of her matches lifetime. I don't think she's overrated. In fact people tend to forget about her..
     
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I agree. Her credential for at least being a BOAT candidate is overwhelming.
     
  17. BTURNER

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    Those career head to heads against King, Bueno and Wade begs the question just which women, who did not show up, was going to take her down each of those 11 times. That serve, volley, and overhead ensured she was rarely likely to be broken on a fast court and her ground strokes were the best in the world before Evert.
     
  18. BTURNER

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    Another interesting question is how would Margaret's total look if Bueno had stayed healthy?
     
  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Most single titles
    Rank Player Singles
    1 Martina Navratilova 167
    2 Chris Evert 157
    3 Steffi Graf 107
    4 Margaret Court 92
    5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
    6 Billie Jean King 67
    7 Lindsay Davenport 55
    8 Virginia Wade 55
    9 Monica Seles 53
    10 Hingis, Serena 45

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6884344&postcount=97
     
  20. BobbyOne

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    Again ignorant? If you trust WTA then you are lost. WTA neglects tennis history before open era...
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  21. BTURNER

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    Bobby is half right. the WTA (not ATP) only accurately lists open era titles. Many titles Margaret Court, and BJK won were before women went pro. the 200 number is closer to truth

    Oh and that link lists an oops. It purports to list in numerical order career w/l percentages here they are out of order:

    Grass court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Martina Navratilova 305 39 88.66
    2 Serena Williams 63 10 86.30
    3 Chris Evert 184 25 88.04
    4 Venus Williams 74 11 85.39
    5 Steffi Graf 85 15 85

    yes, that clay court specialist has a better percentage is than Serena, or Graf, or King. Evert was one hell of a grass court player.
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Thanks, BTURNER, for the correction. I have already corrected it in my post.

    ATP and WTA are both stubborn and omit pre open era results and even some open era ones.
     
  23. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    True. But at the same time she was winning 11 Aussies she by comparison won 3 Wimbledons and 5 US Opens. Yes grasses all play differently but if she were so unstoppable why did she not win more at those venues? She won a lot as it is of course but by comparison not as much. People were able to take her down at those places I find it hard to believe with similar fields she would be so invincible at home. Granted throwing.out half her Aussies still leaves a stellar number..just saying though
     
  24. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    (SIGH)...the list doesn't necessary has to be from WTA website. If you go to google and search for female tennis player with most single titles, you'll get the same result. The same for the men's tennis(Connors holds the record).

    The open era(1968 ) allow both pro and amateur compete against one another. And we all know Court racked up ridiculous number of stats before 1968. Even after 1968, the competition wasn't that good either. Moving forward, the WTA was established in 1973, that's when tennis becomes a global sport, more global events.

    Everyone knows she won 24 slams, but they don't considered it as the benchmark. It's Graf 22 slams record is the holy grail.


    Like I said....Court gets too much credit than she deserve.
     
  25. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Here a few facts...


    I like see Court trying to win 24 slams against the current field(not going to happen !).
     
  26. BobbyOne

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    Google often goes with the ATP and WTA numbers that are irrelevant.
     
  27. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You have no proof.

    If all the published articles are consistently having the same list of all tennis records as I've been posted, then we go by that.
     
  28. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I've seen lists of Courts' tournament wins and trust me she was incredible and won more tournaments than Navratilova. She was able to beat Navratilova I believe late in her career. She beat BJ King more than two to one and she was able to beat Chris Evert, even in the French Open final.

    The WTA as BobbyOne wrote does NOT cover everything and it doesn't cover pre 1968 events which is the majority of Court's career.

    Here's a partial summary list of Court's tournament victories thanks to Andrew Tas. They have found more since then.

    Overall win-loss record 1167-105 (92%)
    Singles won 189 of 298 tournaments played (a few shared)
    Doubles titles 152

    Year by year (Win-loss/ tournaments won (running total))
    57 0-1/0
    58 1-1/0
    59 16-7/1
    60 37-5/4 (54-14)
    61 81-5/13 (135-19)
    62 79-2/16 (214-21)
    63 89-6/15 (303-27)
    64 94-4/18 (397-31)
    65 107-8/19 (504-39)
    66 39-5/6 (543-44)
    67 6-1/0 (549-45)
    68 104-12/14 (653-57)
    69 98-5/19 (751-62)
    70 113-6/21 (864-68 )GRAND SLAM YEAR
    71 64-4/10 (928-72)
    72 61-7/10 (989-79)
    73 100-5/18 (1089-84)
    74 14-3/1 (1103-87)
    75 39-11/2 (1142-98 )
    76 9-2/1 (1150-100)
    77 16-5/0 (1167-105)


    I would say that's an impressive record. Add 24 majors and a 1970 Grand Slam and you have a pretty good player. It's about as good a record as any player in history, maybe greater. You also have to realize she was pregnant several times and even in the years she came back she had to work herself back into tournament shape.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    TMF,

    Here's Court's H to H against Evert
    Year Tournament Nation Surface Round Winner Score
    1973 US Open USA Grass SF COURT 7-5 2-6 6-2
    1973 Wimbledon GBR Grass SF EVERT 1-6 6-1 1-6
    1973 French Open FRA Clay FR COURT 6-7 7-6 6-4
    1977 Chicago USA Carpet FR EVERT 1-6 3-6
    1977 Hollywood USA Carpet FR EVERT 3-6 4-6

    Here's the ITF record of Court versus King but it's just a very small partial record. I believe the true record is 22 to 10 in favor of Court. Notice TMF how many matches they missed.

    1964 Fed Cup 1964 USA Grass SMITH 6-2 6-3
    1965 Fed Cup 1965 AUS Grass SMITH 6-4 8-6
    1968 Australian Championships AUS Grass FR KING 1-6 2-6
    1969 Australian Open AUS Grass FR COURT 6-4 6-1
    1970 Wimbledon GBR Grass FR COURT 14-12 11-9
    1972 US Open USA Grass SF KING 4-6 4-6

    Court against Navratilova. All in her last years.
    1975 US Open USA Clay QF NAVRATILOVA 2-6 4-6
    1975 Wimbledon GBR Grass QF COURT 6-3 6-4
    1975 Australian Open AUS Grass QF NAVRATILOVA 4-6 3-6
    1977 Los Angeles USA Hard SF NAVRATILOVA 7-5 4-6 4-6

    Court against Goolagong

    Year Tournament Nation Surface Round Winner Score
    1968 Australian Championships AUS Grass 16 COURT 3-6 1-6
    1970 Australian Open AUS Grass QF COURT 3-6 1-6
    1971 Wimbledon GBR Grass FR GOOLAGONG 6-4 6-1
    1971 Australian Open AUS Grass FR COURT 6-2 6-7 5-7
    1973 US Open USA Grass FR COURT 6-7 7-5 2-6
    1973 French Open FRA Clay SF COURT 3-6 6-7
    1973 Australian Open AUS Grass FR COURT 4-6 5-7
    1975 Wimbledon GBR Grass SF CAWLEY 6-4 6-4

    Court against Wade

    1968 Fed Cup 1968 FRA Clay COURT 6-2 6-2
    1969 US Open USA Grass SF COURT 7-5 6-0
    1969 Fed Cup 1969 GRE Clay COURT 6-3 6-4
    1973 US Open USA Grass QF COURT 7-6 7-6
    1977 Hollywood USA Carpet SF COURT 6-4 7-6

    Remember many of these are partial records. I'm sure Court played Wade many more times then five. And Court played Evert and Navratilova a number of times past her prime and still was able to beat them. She was great.
     
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I have the proof: If you google Laver on wikipedia you learn that Laver has won 200 tournaments.

    At male player statistics you find a list of thre best tournament winners. Ten of them have won more than 100 tournaments.
     
  31. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I'm betting this is the last of Dan Lobb we'll be seeing in this thread.
     
  32. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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  33. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Are you beginning to see why I call TFM the TT V.I.?
     
  34. Dan Lobb

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    Not quite.
    Court was one of the most celebrated beneficiaries of the Hopman school of training, and she spent much time with Sedgman, who taught her how to use weight lifting (of which he was a fanatic) to increase her strength.
    This accounts for much of her overwhelming success.
     
  35. BTURNER

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    I think you'll find I am fairly realistic. I think had the Australian had comparable draws to the Open and Wimbledon She would have won in the neighborhood of 7. Those three early wins over Jan Lehane would inevitably disappear and a couple of others to either Bueno or King or maybe Wade. Not a lot. . Her record in the tourneys in the region is astounding much like Evert's in her native state. She was a confidence player, and she would have had every right to be plain arrogant with her history in Australasia events. she won 98% of her matches vs unseeded players so there is no doubt she ain't going to loose in early rounds.. There were upsets down under, notably the two finals. She lost to a better player in King, but she was pregnant when she lost to Evonne. That grass is her grass,the wind and elements are in her blood. I don't think she would have lost to a lot more. Hell, she won 80% of her matches vs top ten players according to wiki

    There is no good answer to her poor showing at Wimbledon, except nerves associated with that austere and unique experience and reputation,it brought out the best in King and Navratilova but really undermined Court.

    Court played the Australian both earlier and later than any other major.She actually first entered in ' 59, and it was the first major she would enter after her pregnancies and post wedding 'retirement' in 66. We would have to put her Open wins in perspective. I don't know how often she entered it, but I beleive five was viewed as a women's record for a non-native back then.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, I have some understanding why you called TMF that way. But I just find the word too insulting.
     
  37. BTURNER

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    pc1,
     
  38. pc1

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    BTURNER,
    Great job. Thanks.
     
  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Margaret Court won the Grand Slam in 1970 winning 21 of 27 tournaments entered on a 113-6 record. She also won three majors in a year several times, in 1962, 1965, 1969 and 1973. I believe 1973 was her last fully active year.

    Overall she won 24 of 47 majors entered with a 92% lifetime winning percentage in all tournaments. Most great players NEVER had one year with an over 90% winning percentage (Sampras, Nadal, Agassi, Becker, Edberg, Ashe are examples of great players who never won at a 90% rate for one year) and Court did that for her career. The closest in recent years is Chris Evert at about 90% for her career. I'm sure Suzanne Lenglen was way over 90% also but I don't have exact figures for her. It's safe bet she did since she almost never lost.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  40. pc1

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  41. BTURNER

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    Bets that Wills and Connolly can reach that career W/ L milestone too. Ten bucks, 50 bucks?
     
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    She would only have difficulties with Williams and maybe Sharapova and the 2 belgians
    The rest of the tour is crap and loaded with born losers
     
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The best ever non played match:
    Navratilova vs Court
    Connolly vs Graf
    Bueno vs Mandlikova
    Lenglen vs Hingis
    Wills vs Evert or Seles
     
  44. kiki

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    Gibson vs Goolagong
    Chambers vs King
     
  45. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Disagree. Top 50 players can beat Court. Even Venus currently at #41 can beat Her.
     
  46. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Court was a far better athlete than for example Justine Henin and she was dominant just a few years ago at 5'5" tall and very thin. We don't know what would happen but she was superb and beat everyone. That all she could do.

    If you truly believe that, fine but let's have a little reality check here. A player like Sharapova is hardly a great athlete. She isn't a superhuman. I do think Serena is a great athlete and her best may beat Court's best but over the long run I don't know what would happen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  47. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    That's quite a bit more than hypberbole. Pound for pound, Justine Hennin may be the best athlete women's tennis has ever seen. She was an amazing athlete.
     
  48. Limpinhitter

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    Spoken like the true TT V.I. that you are.
     
  49. Limpinhitter

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    Of all of them, Connolly vs. Evert is the most intriguing to me. They were both baseliners who played with consistency and power, and they were two of the mentally toughest players of all time.
     
  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You have never watched Venus play.
     

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