This is the real GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Headshotterer, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    She was great pound for pound but Court was a great athlete also and a larger athlete which obviously is great for serve etc.

    Anyway that's besides the point. My general point was I think Court was dominant and we don't know how she would do today.
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    IMO Big Mo had more firepower and that is why I pitted her vs Steffi,who was both consistent and powerful but of course nobody would ever have a match won vs Evert before last point
     
  3. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I think I saw some stats a few years ago that indicated that Wills may not have had that high a won-lost. I was surprised. I would think you would win your bet with Connolly easily.
     
  4. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Peak Venus blows them all away...
     
  5. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Helen Wills from 1919-1938 had a win loss record of 398-35, which is like a win percentage of 92%. This included a winning streak of close to 160 matches where she did not lose a set. It isn't that high a win-loss record...but that was during a time when to get across the Atlantic you usually took a boat LOL. She played way fewer tournies a year than the average pro today does as well.
     
  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    When was peak Venus?








    (Just asking.)
     
  7. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    2000-2003.
     
  8. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Summer 2001
     
  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I think that is what I saw. The percentage is higher than I remembered so I guess she is in the Court percentage range.

    I would assume she lost some more by percentage when she was younger unlike the invincible Lenglen. I wonder what Lenglen's winning percentage was.
     
  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Venus is obviously a super player but while perhaps for individual matches you can argue she can beat anyone on certain surfaces like grass she was never the dominant force that Court was.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Williams_career_statistics

    Venus can be a bit erratic on her groundies at times and her second serve has been shaky generally speaking.
     
  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Nowadays with Venus not the quite she used to be and the two Belgians not playing anymore I can only see Court having problems with Serena, Sharapova and maybe Azarenka.

    You look at a player like Radwanska with no weapons and she's number three. Court is faster, stronger, taller and more powerful than her. Li Na, who I like as a player is not exactly a great physical presence and yet she has won a major and can beat anyone when she's on her game.
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes only the 2 belgians plus the 2 sisters and one or two russians because Coury was not only a great athlete but she was one if the strongest players wver in her head and I include men and women
     
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Court played and dominated 4 all time greats at their prime in Bueno,King,Cawley and Evert plus the up and coming Navratilova and great Wade
    And her dominance extended 2 decades
    A GOAT candidate that only a moron can deny
     
  14. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    Didn't Evert beat Court when she was 16? With a losing h2h I fail to see how Court "dominated Evert in her prime"
     
  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Well Court did win at the French in the final and at the US Open in 1973 which was really the last year she was still THE Margaret Court. Evert won at Wimbledon in 1973. Court in her prime may have been a superior player to Evert in her prime on grass considering that King used to beat Evert on grass.
     
  16. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    PCI, by your own standard, here's the H TO H from 1970-1973

    1970 Charlotte, NC SF W 7-6, 7-6 on clay
    1972 Bonne Belle Cup W 6-3, 6-3 on hard court
    1972 Indianapolis, IN SF W 6-3, 7-6
    on clay
    1972 Newport, RI SF L 6-3, 6-0 on grass
    1973 French Open F L 6-7, 7-6, 6-4 on clay
    1973 Wimbledon SF W 6-1, 1-6, 6-1 on grass
    1973 U.S. Open SF L 7-5, 2-6, 6-2 on grass
    1973 Hilton Head, SC RR L 6-4, 6-7, 6-2 on hard court

    There is no way that Court dominated Evert in the early rivalry. She lost the first three matches and every set they played before Evert saw her 17th birthday! Evert wasn't even yet physically fully developed. Court was playing catch -up and I don't see much evidence surface was that big a factor. Evert was nowhere near the champion grasscourt player she became after 1976, nor near her prime. Basically the equation was simple. Court had everything to loose and got nervous vs the girl. Evert could read the Court serve, better than Court could read the Evert passing shots/lobs. Court began to watch and learn the patterns, and maybe from how King changed paces and used junk, and took away angles and got some results . Nevertheless those victories above were all she'd ever get. I feel Court was always going to be a better match -up for Evert, than King or Goolagong were. She was agile and quick for a big woman, but they were both more agile if not as strong outstretched. Goolagong was, I suspect, the fastest, and King was uncanny in anticipating the passes. Finally, Evert liked hitting off pace that big forehands and serves represented. she was usually the smallest and weakest in every age group she slaughtered while in the jrs its its no surprise . I'll also point out that virtually all of those victories Court won, were three setters.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  17. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Logical analysis. I did not realize Court lost her first three matches against Evert. That's incredible, even for a young Chris Evert.
     
  18. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Here's an excerpt from Court on Court written in 1975
    "Chris is a magnificent competitor, mature beyond her years. I know I have to play well agaist her. She is steady as a machine and if you are the least bit off in your game, you've had it. You cannot be foolish nor charge the net recklessly. You have to play a thinking game. With her remarkable accuracy, control of ground shots, and ability to pass you when you charge the net, you have to be sure to go in on the right shots. If you rush the net against Chris on a weak shot, she will pass or lob you with pin-point accuracy. She is one of the coolest players who ever stepped on the court. She rarely shows emotion. Winning or losing, her hair is always in place, and sweat never ruins her makeup."

    You know what is ironic. Of all the women that played amateur or pro tennis wen Evert arrived, Court is probably the only one with any frequent experience reading a doublehanded backhand. Her opponent in four of those early Australians she played from '59- 65 and countless others, was a good friend, Jan Lehane, a lone purveyer of a two-hander who did land in the top ten by virtue of her Australian performances. This woman played more in the era of Bueno, than King or Wade and stayed close to wallabies and platypus for most of her career She did do some traveling in Europe in the early 60's, and reached our shores just one year. So little is written about Lehane, but it may have been an entirely different stroke, because Court had no problems beating Jan Lehane. I saw clips of that Wimbledon SF. She was definitely baffled by Evert's shot. Couldn't read the lob at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    On grass, prime Court was a lot better than prime Evert
     
  20. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Court is one of two contenders for GOAT on grass in the modern era, the other being Martina. Evert is in the group right behind, with Graf, King, and Williams. She pretty much has to be, considering how many victories she had over great grass courters, and how close all those major losses were between Evert and Martina on the blades. Martina had a horrible time putting her away, year after year whether she was seeded one or not! Court would have had her hands just as full. As Court said above, you have to be in very top form on any surface to beat Chris.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  21. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Sorry but, what's V.I? Very Inept? Viral Infection?
     
  22. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    deleted for nonsense:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  23. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    I am sure Court hated make up and would prefer Burkas be worn
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Most aussie women are really hot, open minded and truly nice
     
  25. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Obviously, Margaret Court is not "most Aussie women."
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Obviously I never found her appealing ( except, of course, as a tennis player)
     

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