Thomas Berdych booed by Melbourne crowd!!!!!
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RoddickAce
Hall of Fame
I understand that the players might be simply trying to be polite/avoid seeming to be jerk and not actually feel sorry, but I believe that there is a reason why apologizing is seen as a polite act after hitting someone.
There has to be a cause to warrant an apology. That way I see it is as follows:
a) Why would it be polite to apologize after hitting someone?
b) Why would the player be seen as jerk if he didn't apologize?
In my opinion, the apology is used for 1 of 2 things. It indicates that you did not mean to hit the other person. So not apologizing implies that you did it on purpose. Which means that hitting someone on purpose entails some form of negative impression. Or maybe you did hit the other person on purpose, but are apologizing for...doing something wrong. Therefore, that person must believe that hitting someone on purpose is considered socially wrong.
However, if one feels that it is perfectly fine to hit someone, then they would not apologize unless, as you stated, they do not want to be seen as a jerk. However, this would imply that society views hitting someone on purpose as socially unacceptable. Otherwise, the player would not be afraid of seeming like a jerk, for doing something "right".
Again, just to clarify this is completely different from the Berdych-Almagro situation. I personally felt that Almagro did not intentionally hit Berdych, and that Berdych overreacted.
Btw, as a disclaimer, we have opposing views, but I am actually enjoying this discussion and in no way am I trying to discredit your views.
zapvor
G.O.A.T.
ok this is ridiculous.
for everyone who stayed up to watch it was OBVIOUS almagro did it by accident. he immediately went over to apologize as well.
and even more ridiculous. this is a tennis board of tennis players, and we can't even get his name right?????
it's Tomas geez........
for everyone who stayed up to watch it was OBVIOUS almagro did it by accident. he immediately went over to apologize as well.
and even more ridiculous. this is a tennis board of tennis players, and we can't even get his name right?????
it's Tomas geez........
1. If Almagro did it on purpose, then I don't think he felt it was the "wrong" thing to do. "Socially unacceptable"? Maybe. But not wrong. If he did think it was wrong then he wouldn't have done it in the first place.
He did it maybe because it was the best way to win the point, or there may have been some malice involved. The end result is that he won the point (in a socially acceptable manner or not).
He apologized because it's probably seen as the acceptable thing to do in tennis in that context. Maybe because it was an "aggressive act" not normally seen in the sport.
Going back to my cricket analogy- bowlers will only apologize (if they do at all) if they hit the batsman. Not for trying to hit the batsman. My point being that they apologize because of some social obligation (as defined by the respective sport). Maybe they are apologizing because of some sort of "harm" being inflicted, but they acknowledge that it is part of the sport. It is an accepted "ritual" for the sport. This won't prevent them from trying it again.
Hitting a guy in these 2 sports is within the rules of the game, but may lie on the boundarious of being socially acceptable. Although I feel if it was that unacceptable, then it would be outlawed.
Sorry, I'm not the most coherent of "arguers". I hope my point is coming across.
2. I don't consider that we are arguing , and I'm interested in discussing this as well. I'm sorry if it comes across as anything but a friendly discussion..
you may joke, but that fluff on the balls may be quite toxic. If he did happen to swallow it, then the paramedics would have to be called into action.
RoddickAce
Hall of Fame
We may have a different view on the word "wrong". When I say wrong, I am actually referring to "socially" wrong or socially unacceptable. I agree that hitting the other person is a perfectly legit, legal and tactical shot.
As for bowlers in cricket, as you said earlier, they don't aim to actually hit the other person. There is a fine line between aiming near a person and aiming to hit someone. It's the intent that defines whether the act is ethical. And imo, a bowler aiming a bouncer near the batsman's height is different from someone aiming to drill another player at net.
As for number 2, no I did not find this to be a hostile discussion, I just said the disclaimer because I hope I didn't come across as being aggressive.
Manus Domini
Hall of Fame
The difference between the two is this:
The handshake (imo) says that what happened in the match stays in the match and doesn't come between the players (until the next match, when the loser uses his loss to invigorate himself).
The hitting of a net player is the net player's risk. You come to the net and you aren't comfortable with body shots, back up. Berdych could have ducked. Almagro wasn't shooting him or anything.
Manus Domini
Hall of Fame
You walked into a debate on a few things:
A} Is hitting someone with a tennis ball is as bad or worse than child molestation?
B} Is shaking hands at the end of a match a necessity?
C} Did Almagro do the wrong thing?
D} If you are at the net, should you be prepared for a body shot at all times?
Manus Domini
Hall of Fame
Oh, I gotcha.
TheCanadian
Semi-Pro
Lendl and others used to do it all the time. Players are such whiny little pussies today! Unbelievable.
PrinceMoron
Legend
Andre Agassi, Steffi Graf, Kim Clijsters and Tim Henman Wimbledon first use of the roof on Centre Court.
Agassi tries to take Henman's head off, Henman touch volleys just over the net. Easy when you know how.
Agassi tries to take Henman's head off, Henman touch volleys just over the net. Easy when you know how.
That pretty much sums it up.
I agree. What Almagro did was "socially unacceptable " in tennis. That's why he apologized. But it was a legit way to win the point. Otherwise he would have conceded it. It's not, however, as bad as say -cheating is.
As I said earlier, I would never hit a ball at someone unless they did it to me first. And if they did hit me, then I would just accept that. My pride would probably be a bit hurt, but I probably would've forgotten about it by the end of the match.
In regards to the cricketing example- bouncers are mostly used to intimidate. If they do happen to strike the batsman then most bowlers probably won't be too fussed about that (some will be quietly happy with themselves). They will probably apologize because that is the sporting thing to do. The important thing is batsmen accept that this is a part of the game. That's why they wear helmets. Now come to think of it, I don't even think bouncers, in cricket, are even "socially unacceptable". This makes the act of hitting someone with a tennis ball seem like such a triviality by comparison.
You mentioned that it is "the intent that defines whether the act is ethical". Well it is a statement of how tame and staid the sport of tennis is that even the act of aiming at someone (without intending to hit them) would be seen as socially unacceptable.
Now I would consider it probably socially unacceptable in a social match. But I would say that, in the heat of competition, it would be more accepted as a way to win a point. I've seen it happen (and experienced it) on more than a few occasions. It would ruffle a few feathers, but nothing that a handshake at the end of the match won't fix. Pro players shouldn't be any different. In fact, they will probably do anything it takes to win a point (within the rules of the game).
I will also add that not shaking hands after a tennis match is even more socially unacceptable than aiming to hit someone with the ball.
One more thing: I think the reason that players don't hit at the net guy more often is that , more often than not, it will be volleyed away. It's also a relatively rare thing in pro doubles because 1. "sitter shots" which afford the perfect opportunity to hit someone are pretty rare, and 2. when the opportunity does come up the volleyer/s will take a defensive position so they can either get the ball back, or not get hit.
Back to you.
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According to the commentary I've read recently (I'm not old enough to have been there myself), Lendl wasn't terribly well-liked, either.
Nope. I don't really care about the handshake but berdych is a crybaby for making such a fuss over a tennis ball directed at him. For christ's sake, this guy is a professional tennis player and he's going to cry over a tennis ball?
It's not socially unacceptable in competitive tennis. Maybe in club tennis or old man doubles it is.
I know these guys hit the ball harder than the majority of us here on the boards, but it's not gunna do anything other than maybe sting a bit, unless the ball hits you in the eye. These guys are way to fast to let that happen anyway.
Berdych was being a big baby. He won the match too. Just go shake the other guys hand and forget about it. It's the classy thing to do.
Even if he was pissed off about it, he should have taken the high road, shook Almagro's hand and received cheers from the crowd. He'll need all the support he can get against Nadal tonight.
If he's not a baby, and he's not classless, he's definitely stupid.
I did point this out at the end of the post.
Yeah, I know, it's literally yesterday's news, but I'm having a continuing discussion with another forum member about the validity of deliberately hitting at someone in tennis.
Not many of the top pros were well liked in that era. It kind of came with territory that you had to be adversaries on and off the court. I can remember on more than a few occasions where pros from this era would have verbal confrontations on court. Lendl seems to get on pretty well with his old opponents these days though.
These days tennis is like a mutual respect society in comparison.
I've heard that even Sampras wasn't that well liked either, especially toward the end of his career.
Berdych-Amalgro match
I think that every football player that has his head butted, or his facemask torn off should trun around and "Thank" the opponent. LIkewise in basketball when someone gets hit in the face or arm they should stop and say "thank-you". I congratulate Berdych that he has enough self-respect to stand up for himself, in spite of the fact that the tennis rules (if there are any) are so antiquated that a player has to get booed because he refused to shake hands with the person who acted outside the norm of professionalism or basic humanity! Also, if Berdych had been a smaller person, or let's say a Nadal or Federer and actually got hurt, I'm sure every ones actions would be so different. The sport of Tennis could do more in this area to prevent this type of action happening again.
One last comment: When did or does a player have to be "popular" to earn respect? Shouldn't his/her athleticism be the basis for judgement, if there has to be one? When did everyone have to fit into the media's hype of what it means to be fashionable?
I think that every football player that has his head butted, or his facemask torn off should trun around and "Thank" the opponent. LIkewise in basketball when someone gets hit in the face or arm they should stop and say "thank-you". I congratulate Berdych that he has enough self-respect to stand up for himself, in spite of the fact that the tennis rules (if there are any) are so antiquated that a player has to get booed because he refused to shake hands with the person who acted outside the norm of professionalism or basic humanity! Also, if Berdych had been a smaller person, or let's say a Nadal or Federer and actually got hurt, I'm sure every ones actions would be so different. The sport of Tennis could do more in this area to prevent this type of action happening again.
One last comment: When did or does a player have to be "popular" to earn respect? Shouldn't his/her athleticism be the basis for judgement, if there has to be one? When did everyone have to fit into the media's hype of what it means to be fashionable?
PrinceMoron
Legend
When Safin is in a bad mood, you just duck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghvZKScn-CU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghvZKScn-CU&feature=related
He was just trying to scare him. And it was a little poke as well.
diggler
Hall of Fame
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LmOpcP0M40
What did the pope do to deserve this? Must have done some really dodgy line calls.
What did the pope do to deserve this? Must have done some really dodgy line calls.
