Thoughts on some Arm-Friendly Racquets to replace APD

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by Ramon, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    My racquet is the APDGT. I like the solid feel and the big sweet spot. I hate the harshness on my arm. I used to hit everything long with it, but I've adjusted to the power now. However, I can probably go down a notch or two in power if everything else is right. I used heavier frames in the past (ie. Pro Staff 6.1 95) and heft is probably not a problem for me. I play an all-court game with heavy topspin off both sides and a good slice backhand when I want to play safe. I have trouble keeping control of flat balls, but some of that might be due to my racquet. What's most important to me is comfort, a big sweet spot, and control. Spin-friendliness is a plus.

    Here are the racquet's I'm considering based on TW reviews, comments from posters, and specs:

    1. Pro Kennex Ionic Ki 5 PSE or Ki 5
    2. Volkyl Organix 10 (325g)
    3. Prince EXO3 Warrior 100
    4. Prince EXO3 Rebel 95 or 98
    5. Prince EXO3 Tour 100 16x18
    6. Boris Becker Delta Core Melbourne

    There aren't many places in my area that carry all of these frames and have demos available. I know I can get demos from TW, but I've actually had success in the past buying frames based on feedback, specs, and other demos, saving me time and shipping costs. Believe it not, that's how I bought the PS 6.1 95 (I bought it based on reputation and other Wilson racquets I tried) and APDGT (I liked different characteristics of the AST and PD, which I demoed). I'm not sure how I'll approach it this time around.

    I'm open to suggestions to add to this list, and I appreciate your feedback.
     
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  2. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    I have been playing mostly with the APDGT for about 1.5years and use a soft poly, MSV Focus Hex at 51-53lbs in the mains and a softer cross like Polystar energy or syn gut to keep my arm out of trouble. I am somewhat sensitive to overly stiff rackets especially with high tensions and/or stiff strings. You can try adding some weight to it at 3&9 & in the handle to help dampen shock a bit.

    I've tried loads of rackets similar to the PD/APD and the most comfortable was the PD GT 107. Once I added enough lead to the hoop and inside the handle (+ leather grip) to make it swing like an APDGT I found it to be extremely cushioned and soft feeling, no vibes. Its quite high on power though.

    Next was the Boris Becker Delta Core Pro. This is the most comfy 100sq in power racket I have ever used, + Huge sweet spot. Just look at the customer reviews and you'll see comfort is mentioned over and over. You'll have to tweak the weight and balance a bit to get it to play and feel more like an APD though.

    The Boris Becker Delta Core London has a nice blend of crisp & flexy feel, though not as comfy IMO as the Pro. It also produces quite a loopy shot & a ton of topspin.


    Edit:
    Actually the most comfy 100sq racket I've tried is the Wilson KBold, but I didn't mention it at first because most people are not willing to try it out since it is inexpensive and very light. I was one of those people. A friend of mine plays very well with it in stock form, the guy hits a very fast, attacking college level forehand with it and I couldn't figure it out. I finally tried it and it swung heavier than its specs, had great control, good power, an amazingly soft feel, all while strung with a full bed of Babolat Hurricane Tour 16 at 59lbs!!! In comparison, my APDGT with MSV Co-Focus (a soft poly) strung at 51lbs and 54lbs OG sheep micro 18 felt noticeably harsher. It easily competes with the more expensive rackets and weighing it up should be easy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
    #2
  3. vegasgt3

    vegasgt3 Rookie

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    Dunlop 400 Tour is pretty soft, but with good power and spin
     
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  4. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    got to be the new ig radical pro or the dunlop 200 plus
     
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  5. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    He's already using 2 multis.
     
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  6. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    i would go for Exo Tour 18x20 very arm friendly and spin friendly, only get this if you think you can handle the lets say lack of power, dunlop 200 lite is also good. Best bet would be to demo.
     
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  7. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    So what? Adding some weight can significantly dampen vibration, and seeing as how he used 6.1's before it seems like he can handle the weight. OP also said its not exactly easy to get frames in his area so trying something simple to see if you can make what you already have work for you is probably a lot easier than running out and trying a bunch of different frames everyone is going to be suggesting.
     
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  8. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    Adding lead weight would also increase the power, then he would have to string higher or switch to poly.

    Get the cycle?
     
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  9. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    You're getting weird about this.

    Power level & spin do not stay consistent between rackets either. The OP asked for some suggestion, I'm just gonna let the OP decide what he wants to do. I don't see the need to go through details with anyone else.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  10. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    Doesn't make me wrong...

    Adding lead will reduce spin (as you suggested 3 and 9) at 12 would maybe stay the same or go up abit (racquet headspeed goes down, but more polarization makes it go up).

    Lead at 9 and 3 would make the sweetspot bigger (APDGT doesn't have a huge sweespot) and the spin potential will go down quite abit while the power will go up to achieve the desired "dampening". Since APD is quite a high powered racquet the spin is what is bringing the ball down in the APD, without the spin and with EXTRA power, the balls will fly out of the stadium if he keeps using his RIP Control and Hexy Fiber. So that means he would have to switch to a low powered poly to regain the spin and control that he lost from adding weight. The poly would then screw up his arm again.

    And how am I getting "weird". If you were to make a good suggestion make one such as put silicone in the hand (O.P Research on this) I don't know jack about it but apparently putting silicone into your handle will make more arm friendly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  11. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    You worked out all the details of exactly what someone you don't know is gonna need to do while sitting at your keyboard? Thats weird.
     
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  12. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    I don't need to work this out. Just comes from cause and effect.

    If you have ever lead taped before you would obviously know this.

    And +1 to being asian.
     
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  13. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    When I demoed a bunch of rackets last summer, I tried a few of the ones on your list. In order of preference, I would say:
    1. Melbourne
    2. EX03 Rebel 95 (last year's model, the black & yellow one)
    3. Organix 10
    4. Ki 5
    I eventually went w/ the Pacific X-Force Pro (which is basically the Fischer M Pro No 1 'Black Granite'), but I really liked the Melbourne. It was a toss up between the 2, and in the end, I liked the 16x20 of the X-Force Pro vs the 18x20 of the Melbourne.

    Many people here jock the Ki 5 (which is why I demoed it), but I did not like it at all. I'm sure its a good racket, but it just was not for me.

    Had the EX03 95 been a 98, I might have gone w/ it, but that model didn't exist yet.
     
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  14. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    Right, add some lead and the "balls will fly outta the stadium." You can't go through life thinking you can figure everything out through assumptions, you can't replace real experience. I had a friend like that, & quite nerdy. She kept thinking she could just use "common knowledge" and figure everything out without actually experiencing it. That way of thinking just isn't very smart. And most of the time she was WRONG.
     
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  15. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    LOL. Add lead to dampen the stiffness more, that would take quite some lead maybe 20-30 grams and it wouldn't make much if any difference. and btw Stadium is an exaggeration.

    Btw. You can go through live working out theory's in your head and if your smart most of the time it would work out as planned. And I have experienced it, adding lead to my 100S it didnt even change the stiffness of it and I added 6 grams. If 6 grams changes your swing pattern, speed and power how would adding more lead to the racquet until it is dampened, not change the racquet. It would change the racquet alot. And as YOU said "OP also said its not exactly easy to get frames in his area so trying something simple." Putting enough lead on it to "dampen the racquet "significantly" will change his strokes more than changing a racquet would. The racquet would also play extremely differently.



    Sorry about the post. . Adding lead to 9 and 3 would make your racquet STIFFER. So meh, Im dumb for not knowing that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  16. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    You're not even making sense anymore.
     
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  17. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    Ok. Let me put it into easier terms.

    I lead my racquet 6 grams, no noticeable difference in stiffness but noticable difference in Power and Spin. If you keep going there will be great difference in stiffness but EVEN greater difference in power and spin. He would be better off changing racquets.

    But then I found out that adding lead tape too the hoop actually makes the racquet stiffer. Adding lead tape to the handle makes it less stiff.
     
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  18. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    Is anybody else seeing this?
     
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  19. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I love the way poly plays, but it's too tough on my arm. I've even tried MSV Focus Hex at 35 lbs. It feels good at first, but after 3 hours, it kills my arm. Also, any hybrid I tried with poly in the mains kills my arm on this racquet. Multi mains with poly crosses is okay, but durability is poor. I've experimented with lead tape, including the setup you mentioned, but balls tended to go long and the APDGT is almost too powerful for me as it is.

    I do appreciate your feedback. I know I didn't mention all of this before, but I didn't want to bore people with a history of my racquet experiments.
     
    #19
  20. athiker

    athiker Hall of Fame

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    I know the Ki5 was mentioned above already but I'll weigh in as I switched from a APDC to a Ki5 a couple years ago purely due to TE and shoulder pain. I haven't looked at the latest APD version specs but at the time the specs, except for flex, were pretty similar to the Ki5 so it was a pretty easy transition. With the right string set-up I think the Ki5 is very spin friendly like the APD. The difference is obviously in the stiffness and there the Ki5 is much more arm friendly with the trade-off of less power.

    I had control problems at times which caused me to switch to some other racquet for long periods, the C10 Pro for the majority of the time, but have come back to the Ki5 time and again. The C10 hits a much nicer slice, is more stable as you would expect from the specs but the Ki5 hits spin easier, is more maneuverable and more forgiving overall (bigger sweetspot IMO). I love the the C10 when I'm "on" but I'm "off" too frequently!

    When I started using a gut main/poly cross setup (which I first started using in other racquets) this latest return to the Ki5 seems to have hit the mark. Previously I had used full multi or full cheap gut and didn't seem to get the control I wanted. Like I say, the transition would likely be a pretty smooth one from the APD but as mentioned there is a drop in "free" power...but that can translate into more control and more ability to "hit out" to generate spin. You will probably initially leave more balls short though, depending on your string set-up of course.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  21. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    I wasn't trying to recommending you use a poly, just using an example to say I need to keep my strings soft to avoid arm pains as well. Sorry for the confusion.

    If the APDGT is borderline too powerful, you might find the EXO Tour 16x18 to be the same. I tried the 18x20 demo from TW that came with Poly, and even as an APDGTuser I felt the EXO Tour that had a lot of power.

    Good luck with your racket search.
     
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  22. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I never even thought about the Pacific X-Force Pro, but after seeing the TW review it does sound like the kind of frame I'm looking for. How are the X-Force Pro and Melbourne on off-center hits? What didn't you like about the Ki 5?
     
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  23. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the feedback. I kind of thought the Ki 5 would be the easiest transition from the APDGT based on how the specs lined up and what people say about it. I'm actually thinking the Ki 5 PSE might be better for me because of the extra weight, and I really don't mind giving up a little power. It's good to know that it's forgiving on off-center hits because that's one of the things I like about the APDGT.
     
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  24. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    The nice thing about the PK line of sticks like the 5G/7G is that the flex rating is not that far off from your APDGT. The comfort is light years better though.
     
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  25. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I feel bad for people reading chyeahhs posts sometimes. He is wrong so often yet posts like he knows what he is talking about.

    Ramon, I agree with Mikeler. I played very well with the apdc, but it's light and stiff, which can get to your arm. the 7g is xl, but really truly worth a demo. One of the best sticks out there, inexpensive and underrated.
     
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  26. athiker

    athiker Hall of Fame

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    If you think you can handle the weight and early prep timing for the Ki5 PSE I'm sure that would be a solid beast to play with. I haven't tried it as as I believe it would be too heavy for me. I've considered the Ki15 PSE seriously...a bit stiffer but w/ the Ionic system there shouldn't be any arm issues and at 105 sq inches plenty of sweet spot. SW is 327 by TW but TWU has it up in the 330s. That's led me to think about the standard Ki15 and just leading it up a bit to comfortable specs. I seem to like about 11.5 - 11.8 oz static and about 320 - 325 sw. Good luck in your search. I liked playing with the APDC, but with less than perfect 1HBH form and pre-existing shoulder issues I just couldn't keep playing it.

    And just to muddy the waters the 7g has its fans as well and the Volkl X8 315 is marketed as an arm friendlier version of the APD/PD. I haven't played either one.

    EDIT: I just looked at the APDGT specs. It looks like it is stiffer and has a higher sw than the APDC version I used...so take that into account as far as ease of transition.

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpage-BAPDC.html vs http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Babolat_AeroPro_Drive_GT/descpageRCBAB-BAPDGT.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2012
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  27. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    The X-Force is more forgiving on off-center hits than the Melbourne. Look at a few threads on the Melbourne & you'll see that TennisMaverick talks about how it requires you to hit the center of the frame consistently to get the most out of it.

    Not sure what it was about the Ki5 I did not like. I guess I put it in the Dunlop feel category, and those who like that feel really like it. I demoed a couple of Dunlops as well (200 & 300 series), and really wanted to like them, but they just didn't click.

    When I demo rackets, it is usually with 3 or 4 frames at once. I cycle through all of them, hitting ~ 5 minutes w/ each. Then, I go back through w/ the ones I really liked of the bunch & play a set w/ each, mixing in my current frame here & there. Then the next time out, I do it all over again. If after 2 times out a frame doesn't make the 2nd cut, I leave it in the bag until its time to return them. The Ki5 was one of those frames.
     
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  28. athiker

    athiker Hall of Fame

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    Re: McLovin's comment...I think he is right as it does have a more muted feel to it that would take some getting used to; it won't feel as "crisp" as the APDGT. I guess it kind of goes a bit w/ the comfort difference.
     
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  29. Robbnc

    Robbnc Rookie

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    I am just coming off a battle with TE, and I used an APD. Last years Rebel 95 is very cheap right now and I managed to pick up a used one even cheaper. With a full bed of VS gut I can report that I feel no absolutely nothing during or after playing tennis. I played 5 sets last Sat, 4 sets Mon and 3 sets last night, no problem. With the gut this frame hits unbelievably smooth, like cutting butter with a hot knife. When I got the frame it had RPM in it and although still smooth it was underpowered for me. The gut change that and made it even smoother. The first time out I thought it might be a little heavy but every time I go out I'm hitting better and the control is outstanding, much better than the APD.
     
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  30. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    I am one of those that REALLY likes the feel of a Dunlop, which I would describe as muted, but I also love the "softer" feel of Volkl and Pacific. I'll soon be demoing the X-Force Pro (again), X-10 325, heavily weighted Bio. 300, and Donnay Pro One (if I can get my hands on one). As I mentioned to you in another post, I was blown away by the X-Force Pro in a recent demo, but I can't get past the idea of the tapered beam. The crazy thing is that this frame doesn't play like a stick with a tapered beam, other than being able to drive the ball on a dime. It seemed to me that the extra beam width at 3/9 and 12 only added forgiveness without the unwanted extra pop. I don't know how they pulled off the balance of attributes in this frame, but it works.

    Do you spend the majority of your time at the baseline, serving and volleying, or all court? Just curious.
     
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  31. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I'll probably have a chance to demo an EXO3 Tour 100 soon. I know it would be a big transition but it sounds like its probably the most comfortable one out there. The specs on the Dunlop 200 look good and they have favorable reviews. I think I would lean towards a heavier version.
     
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  32. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Aren't you the same guy who got rid of TE super quick after getting a platelet-rich prolotherapy a couple of years ago?
     
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  33. McLovin

    McLovin Hall of Fame

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    Yes, the tapered beam took a little getting use to. My previous 4 frames were, in order: C10 Pro, M-Comp 95, Pure Control + 'Swirly' and Pro Staff HC 6.1. All straight beam between 20 & 22mm. Even after 6 months I look at it as I'm about to return serve & think 'huh, it's tapered'. Then I rip a nice return & quickly forget about it...

    Assuming this was directed at me, I'd say I'm more in the mold of a Todd Martin, albeit a 5' 9" version of him. I'll play mostly from the baseline, but will willingly serve & volley and come in to the net to finish off points. I also play a bunch of doubles (my USTA tri-level team made it to sectionals). I'm rated at 4.5, but can still hang w/ some college players & 5.0s...until my 43yr old body gives out...
     
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  34. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    The 7G has a lot of fans here (I'm guessing the Ki 5x is replacing it). I never really found an advantage to xl frames. I kinda thought that if I was going to add extra SW to a frame, I'd rather just put more mass on the head for extra stability and plow. Do the 5G and Ki 5 lack in something that the 7G has?
     
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  35. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    Definitely an overlooked, control oriented player's frame with a touch of added forgiveness. Sounds like your playing style is a lot like mine, but I do hit a one handed backhand, and topspin shots on this side are the only thing that worries me with the tapered beam, but it's obviously not an issue on slice shots, which I mix in often. In fact, from what I remember, slice backhands with the X-Force Pro were standout.

    That's where I go back to my love-affair with Dunlops: they're the best one handed backhand sticks I've ever picked up, but that's just for me. I guess there's always a compromise. The challenge is choosing the one that hurts the overall game the least.

    Anyway, I look forward to hitting the Pacific again and drawing second impressions. I love it stock, but may try it with around 3-4 grams in the throat just to add a fraction more stability in this area. Thanks for your thoughts.
     
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  36. Robbnc

    Robbnc Rookie

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    Yes indeed I am that guy. But it was in Feb of 2008 , 4 years ago. After that I played pain free for the next 3 years 8 months. 3-4 times a week plus 1 day on the ball machine. Most of that (but not all) was with APD and poly , RPM for the most part. My arm went bad again just before Thanksgiving and I really don't think tennis did it. I had been hand sanding a motorcycle gas tank when the pain started, but tennis didn't help it. I suffered for about a month and in late December I went for PRP again. Pain was pretty much gone after 2 1/2 weeks at which time I started back with the Flexbar. After 1 1/2 with the Flexbar I could twist the green bar to the max with no pain. So, one month total away from tennis and I jumped back in full speed. But I really don't feel like taking any chances anymore , hence the heavy , flexible racquet with gut.
     
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  37. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Good point about feel. I'd really like to get my hands on a new PK or Dunlop and see what you mean. Maybe that's all part of the comfort technology? Getting rid of vibration sometimes results in a muted feel. I heard the EXO3 Tour 100 is muted as well.
     
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  38. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, from what I have heard, the 7g just has more inherent power and is an easier stick to wield.

    If you can demo one from TX, I believe it is worth it. You may really like the XL. I can go either way, but I was into XLs for a while.
     
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  39. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    The 5G and 7G should be fairly close. The Exo Tour 100 is a very interesting stick but light years from what you are hitting with now. Expect a solid 1-2 month transition period in your match play of adjusting to the racket. Very strange feeling racket to me but I'm sure I could get used to it eventually. Plus, I only hit with it for 5 minutes.
     
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  40. Chyeaah

    Chyeaah Professional

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    I wen't by this post.
     
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  41. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Glad to hear you're back to playing tennis.

    Next time I get into trouble, I will remember PRP.
     
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  42. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    I have no idea what this guy is talking about and I have an aerospace engineering degree...

    The only thing he said that is correct is that adding lead at 9 and 3 will enlarge the sweetspot.

    How adding extra weight will increase spin... I have no idea.
     
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  43. forthegame

    forthegame Hall of Fame

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    My 2p:

    I had elbow issues a while ago. More GE than TE as it was on the medial aspect.

    Played with a Ki5 (old PJ) and liked it for a time. It was very comfortable. I let it go because of one issue - deadness/vagueness in the upper hoop. The only place where it jarred. I admit however, that I feel the deadnesss maybe common to 100sq in racquets. IMHO of course.

    Tried the Fischer MPro No 1 98 light - comfy but underpowered. Couldn't generate enough on my own. I should have held on to it for a wee bit longer as I got better at hitting groundstrokes.

    Fischer Magnetic Tour UL - also very comfy but jarred on occasion. Low powered and didn't like the feel. Feel is another thing, the Fischer feel takes some getting used to IMHO.

    Donnay Pro One Ltd - comfortable and solid. Don't have a bad word to say about this racquet. Deep, heavy ball, nice slice and my opponents complained about my spin (I never noticed it LOL!). Stopped using it because it's hefty, don't know why I did since I had no issues with it. Got it in my head that I needed to go lighter.

    Currrently using the nBlade 98 - comfortable and arm friendly. Still relatively low powered - trying to work on that with lead/strings. Serves have dropped in pace too. Funny thing is, I settled on lead on the throat to "stiffen" it up; could be my mind, but I think it works!

    .
     
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  44. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I tried out my friend's EXO3 Tour 100 18x20 today, strung with a fresh set of RPM Blast. I was amazed at how comfortable it was with full poly. I was able to get more spin with it than with my APDGT strung with full multi. I was expecting that I would have to put more effort into hitting hard shots, but the power level was actually to my liking. My serve was instantly better, as I was able to get more kick when I needed it. The feel is muted, and I know this racquet would take some time for me to adjust, but I'm definitely confident that I can adjust to it.

    What's sucks is that I finally found a string I like (Prince Premiere Attack) that's very comfortable with my APDGT, but if I switch to the Tour 100 I'll probably prefer a poly or hybrid! I'll be back to the drawing board with strings!
     
    #44
  45. achokshi99

    achokshi99 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
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    336
    Great to hear, although keep in mind you did say "fresh set" of RPM blast. Better watch out for the eventual harshness those strings might bring on over a few hitting sessions.


     
    #45
  46. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Oh yes! I'm well aware of that. In fact, I'll probably go with hybrid strings. They usually break at just about the right time.

    I'm still thinking I might want to demo some racquets from TW for comparison. At least I know there's already one racquet that I like enough to make the switch.
     
    #46
  47. achokshi99

    achokshi99 Rookie

    Joined:
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    Based on your topspin game, you might want to try the BB DCP. I was using the Roddick PDGT and it wrecked my arm. I actually serve out of this planet with the DCP and it is a monster spin machine. I rely a lot on topspin and this thing (16x19) just is a perfect fit to my game. Prob an under the radar brand relative to the babolats but I felt it does what the roddick pdgt does better across the board.

     
    #47
  48. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I decided to satisfy my curiosity and order demos from TW. I ordered:

    Prince EXO3 Tour 100 16x18
    Pro Kennex Ki 5 PSE
    Volkyl Organix 10 325
    Pacific X Force Pro

    I would have liked to include the Prince Rebel 95, Boris Becker DC Melbourne, and Dunlop Biomimetic 200 Tour, but TW only lets you demo 4 at a time. I know I'll have something I like from this list. The Pacific X Force Pro wasn't even on my radar until yesterday, but it really looks like the kind of racquet that suits my game.
     
    #48
  49. oragne lovre

    oragne lovre New User

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2011
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    46
    He should have read a book: Technical Tennis: Racquets, Strings, Balls, Courts, Spin, and Bounce, written by Rodney Cross, before offering those suggestions. IMO, this book should be a reference for those who like to discuss about technical aspect of racquets and, by extension, the game of tennis.
     
    #49
  50. ArliHawk

    ArliHawk Hall of Fame

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    Jan 3, 2012
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    The Prince Warrior sounds like it could be a candidate if you don't like any of the first batch.
     
    #50

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