Thoughts on squats in the gym...

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by wings56, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Honestly I doubt that you could right now. Doing 1rm attempts is as much a skill as it is strength. I just did 319lbs 5x3 at 165lbs this friday after a snatch and clean and jerk work out, but I cant do 2.5xbw for a single yet

    Not that you arent on the right track though, probably closer than I am
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  2. SalvadorVeiga

    SalvadorVeiga Rookie

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    i know that its not linear... even if i could do 305lbs for 40 reps is different than 1 rep at maximum weight that i never lifted before... i know i need to train for those as well...before getting up to the plate per se ... maybe ill try this week just a few walkouts with weights close to 400 lbs just to see how it feels ...
     
  3. r2473

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    pics, or it didn't happen :)
     
  4. SalvadorVeiga

    SalvadorVeiga Rookie

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    pics? Why so? Do you want to check out my legs is that it? :twisted::twisted:

    i can tell you right away that they are quite hairy ahaha ...j/k

    i work out alone so i never recorded myself. if i ever go with a spotter ill try to make a video of it ...
     
  5. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    It's a power rack - not a squat rack. And on most of them they are convient for tons of exercises from pullups to rackpulls and yes curls. That's why people use them..

    It's like the left lane on the highway. it would be nice if everyone actually used it for passing instead of camping out there at 66mph. But all the anger in the world won't fix the problem. It's a very useful gym item.. With that and a bench you got pretty much everything covered if you wanted a home gym.
     
  6. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    if you are doing curls in a power rack i hate you. Seriously I hate you alot.
     
  7. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    How about it I can curl 2.5X my bodyweight?
     
  8. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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  9. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    who the hell is hitting anyone?

    I still hate him for that.
     
  10. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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  11. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Yeah. Curls won't help your tennis either..well not much anyway.

    Here is an interesting blog posting (granted its trying to sell something) that probably a better framework for wannabe tennis players then worrying about powerlifts..

    http://www.oneresult.com/articles/training/athlete’s-workout-program-checklist

    That's what this thread is about right? If squats are important to tennis players? Not congratulating ourseleves if we perform 10 squats at 1.2x body weight. <g>

    Again the prevailing theory among actual strength/tennis coaches is that you should concentrate on UNILATERAL work for your tennis.

    If you are interested in hypertrophy and bodybuilding then you can get excellent results with hack squats and leg presses..
     
  12. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Has anyone said you shouldn't do other types of exercises for tennis in addition to squats? Are you saying these exercises take the place of squats or what?

    Wow! I can't believe you said that. Then again, someone who never does any form of squats with anything over 100 pounds wouldn't know anything about hypertrophy and bodybuilding anyway. Name ONE person who competed in the Mr. Olympia who didn't do back squats. It's universally accepted among bodybuilders as the best overall lower body exercise. Tom Platz even says he never does leg presses.

    Why do you tell everyone not to do back squats anyway? Is it because you are envious of us and it makes you feel better when other people don't do it? Sadly, that reminds me of other people I know.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  13. GuyClinch

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    Oh please - check your ego. Your form is suspect BTW - towards the bottom of your lift you lose your neutral spine position.

    Anyway I don't tell everyone not to do squats. Squats are not some magical exercise that will greatly improve your tennis. It's a great exercise for muscle building if you can do it right. But its not some pancea - nor it is particularly applicable to tennis. Do you even play tennis BTW?

    If you do it wrong - by say bending over at the waist it puts tremendous shearing effects on your vertebraes. For taller strength athletes - favour front squats because it keeps you in a more upright position.

    Tennis players don't need to squat at all - and indeed the very top players don't seem to be squatting with significant weight based on all the literature/research I have read.

    The only individuals that absolutely need to back squat are strength athletes. The mythology you buy into about everyone needing to back squat is misguided at best.

    It's the same with the bench press, overhead press or barbell bent over row. Perfectly good exercises - that haven't gained the mythology of a squat. But no one would argue that you HAVE to bench. Or you HAVE to do overhead presses.

    Somehow the squat gets this special status - its not warranted. Hell its not even the best powerlift - Deadlifts are better.. You move more weight and its more functional.

    You can absolutely create more hypertrophy with leg presses because you take your back out of the loop. Your back is a limiting factor in how much your legs can press. If your back isn't strong enough - your squat will collapse. For many athletes they have legs that can push far beyond what the muscles in the back can handle.

    Yes you can squat - and eventually get big legs. But as someone with self described skinny legs should know - that can be a heck of alot of weight.

    Whereas with the press you can put actual stress on the leg muscles.

    "Some people's joints articulate in a manner that allows them to benefit greatly from squats; others may not benefit at all. If you're not too tall and have short limbs, it may be the best exercise for you, but if you're tall with long legs, it might be both ineffective and dangerous.I was stubbornly faithful to squats for years until I finally realized they were not well-suited for my body structure. After I switched to more muscle-intensive movements, my gains in leg size were astounding."--Dorian Yates

    Dorian Yates used a HIT routine and it went like this:

    Leg extensions 2* 10-12 1 10-12
    Leg presses 2* 10-12 1 10-12
    Hack squats 1* 10-12 1 10-12
    Lying leg curls 1* 10-12 1 10-12
    Stiff-leg deadlifts 1 8-10
    Standing leg curls 1 8-10
    Standing calf raises 1* 10-12 1 10-12
    Seated calf raises 1 10-12


    Yates didn't just COMPETE he WON SIX OLYMPIANS..

    SO you were saying?
     
  14. T1000

    T1000 Hall of Fame

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    If you're too weak to pick up a 100lb loaded bar off the floor then you probably shouldn't be worried about doing curls. There is no reason to use the power rack for curls, especially wrist curls
     
  15. Pacific lefty

    Pacific lefty Rookie

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    Did not find gym helpful

    I have been off tennis from December due to injury and have finally re-discovered right handed tennis! When I was off court, I started a gym program involving lots of cardio, squats, lunges, thrower's ten style wrist and biceps exercises, core, abs, etc. I did this religiously up until last week when I met a friend of a friend who is a coach and started teaching me right handed tennis.

    So I thought all this gym work would be great preparing to play tennis. Not so!!! After the first sessions with coach, that lasted 1.5 hrs, I was utterly and totally wrecked. I can't understand how all that time spent in the gym did not stand to me at all. So different from hitting balls non stop (and running for them) for an hour or so... I was nowhere near the level of tennis fitness I was at last July when I was playing 6-12 hours a week.

    Okay obviously I wasn't lifting weights or anything (injured shoulder) but I was running 5 km each time, along with elliptical and bike...
     
  16. NothingButNet

    NothingButNet New User

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    PLefty, I've been off for since Sep with rotator cuff issues and have had to 'rediscover' all types of non-tennis stuff in the gym and feel like I'd be ready to rip once I hit the courts again.

    One of our esteemed posters put up a link to an article on a Saddlebrook Academy regime that I do twice a week.

    If you do it correctly, it's a really good workout. As it closely replicates on-court movements (and I do it on the courts I play at) I have no doubt it will translate straight into my game in terms of movement/fitness.

    If I could say so, I was already quite fit and fast and this pushed me even more!

    P.S. -> tried the switch to my left (non-dom) arm and hated the feel after 5 productive outings.
     
  17. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    If you don't take steroids, you should not take training advice from a steroid user.

    I'll leave it at that.
     
  18. GuyClinch

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    That was an example of a bodybuilder who wasn't really a squatter - not a training regimen for non-steroid using tennis players. <g>

    Tennis players need to look to see what pro tennis players and other SPEED athletes are doing for training. That was my point..

    Tennis is about SPEED and AGILITY. Do sprinters focus on back squat? How about boxers?...

    Ali didn't train with weight AT ALL..
     
  19. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I train like Foreman
     
  20. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Interesting. So doing a bunch of steady state cardio does not get you into tennis shape as well as simply playing a lot of tennis?

    As for GuyClinch's crusade, I dont recall anyone saying squats are some magical exercise that will instantly improve your tennis game. But for some reason you think that doing unilateral work will directly impact how good you play tennis?

    More so than simply practicing tennis?

    My argument for squats is that it is a very general strength exercise with the most carry over to anything else. Deadlifts are not as adequate due to the fact that they cannot be performed as frequently due to factors like CNS stress. They will also not interfere with any motor patterns or habits in tennis since there isnt any directly analogous motion to squats

    Also, at this point you're making an appeal to authority argument in most of your posts and is beginning to depart from any logical argument.

    As many have said, tennis coaches/trainers are very rooted in their ways and training has not changed much. Do you deny this is so or do you accept its truth? If it is true, then your arguments are not conclusive as there is certainly the possibility that these methods are NOT the best, only, or most efficient.

    Remember that all the pro tennis players you are citing as examples were pretty much raised in the sport and demonstrated natural talent early on. You wouldn't call the S&C coach of a pro football team a good coach because his guys are so strong/athletic etc. He was GIVEN the genetic elite to work with and they were already awesome when they arrived. Im sure just as many of the high level tennis coaches now are given (or choose) the best players to work with versus raising an amateur to the level of a pro. There is a very big difference that I think you're missing.

    No one here is an elite athlete
     
  21. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    The devil is in the details as they say.
     
  22. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely. I've said all along that my genetics suck for weightlifting and for squatting because I have a naturally thin build with long skinny legs and small joints. Unlike others who just troll the internet to get quotes (and sometimes misquotes out of context) from other authorites, I actually do squats, and I'll put my form up against those trolls (who are probably doing lunges with 20 pound dumbells) anytime. It's obvious to me that someone doesn't know what he's talking about when he speaks of things he doesn't participate in and points out issues that aren't there for most people who squat. It's so easy to criticize someone on little things without being able to do it yourself, isn't it? I have poor genetics for squats too, but I'm proud to say I took the challenge instead of wussing out and telling others not to do it in order to satisfy my inferiority complex. It's actually bad to even recognize a troll's comments.

    If I didn't force myself to do squats when I experienced chronic knee pain from tennis several years ago, I probably wouldn't be playing tennis today. My Tencap rating is a 31, which is technically a 4.5 equivalent on a more precise scale (it's an official rating, not an introductory or self rating). I play singles on a 4.0 team, and for those of you who played league tennis, you know that a true 4.0 doesn't win too many matches in singles. In my last 3 league singles matches none of my opponents won more than 2 games from me the entire match (I'm really digging my new racquet). What keeps me from getting bumped up is some of the other teams have "ringers", one of whom was said to be "easily a 5.0" by a 5.5 college player who hits with him. One of my recent opponents said to me before our match, "I heard you're the guy who gets to every ball." Apparently the squats worked.

    Speaking about quoting out of context:

    http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/forums/training-articles/31916-thigh-size-dorian-yates.html

    "To build basic thigh mass, stick to basic exercises. I would recommend the following three movements: leg extensions, barbell squats and hack squats. Some may be surprised that I chose barbell squats, as I did not do them during my Olympia-winning years. That was because I suffered a serious hip injury in 1987 (that nearly ended my career) and I was forced to abandon the exercise. However, that does not dilute my belief that for building thigh mass, the barbell squat is number one -- as it was for the first four years of my bodybuilding career." - Dorian Yates

    Notice that the context of this quote (in which I provided a link) is Yates giving advice to beginners where he gives them a simple workout routine. His HIT routine is something he might recommend to an advanced or competitive bodybuilder (who probably already has massive thighs). Which context do you think is more appropriate for most tennis players in this forum?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  23. SalvadorVeiga

    SalvadorVeiga Rookie

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    actually...they do ... a lot.
     
  24. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    If they want to win they do. If you search the web (c'mon trolls, you're good at that) for Ben Johnson's squats you'll see some ridiculous numbers. 680 lbs max, 2 sets of 6 reps at 600 lbs. So much for the theory that squatting big numbers will slow you down!

    I remember an earlier post where he casually mentioned that ping pong players have no need for this type of training. Anyone with an inkling of worldly knowledge of sports knows that world class table tennis, played mostly in the asian countries, is one of the fastest sports in the world, and I showed him pictures of top players who all had massive leg development. He's thinking about high school level track stars and old guys playing ping pong in the rec room.

    Honestly, the troll should just stop. The more he posts, the more he shows his ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  25. SalvadorVeiga

    SalvadorVeiga Rookie

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    Ramon, in my gym used to train one of the best sprinters in the world (he won silver medal in the olympics and bronze again in the olympics on the 100 meter dash) and he trained reasonable heavy squats and box squats.
     
  26. r2473

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  27. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Professional

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    I can't believe there is a thread with 34 pages on squats.
     
  28. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    You need to go back and read every post. Each and every one is quite insightful.
     
  29. SalvadorVeiga

    SalvadorVeiga Rookie

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  30. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Even if he was doping, doesnt mean he didnt work his ass off. Drugs can enable you to work harder, longer, and more often but by themselves do not necessarily produce winners.
     
  31. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    You don't need to have an opinion on one extreme or the other.

    Yes, of course you still have to work hard to be successful, even if you you drugs.

    But, "juicers" and "non-juicers" need to train much differently.

    So all of these examples of "well, Yates did this" or "Platz did that", or "this world class sprinter did this", or even "this professional tennis player does that" are all worthless for me. I really could care less how they train. If I tried to train the same as they did / do, it would be the worst thing I could do.
     
  32. GuyClinch

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    This is Rippetoe's argument and its pretty stupid if you stop and think about it. Wouldn't 'analogous' movements have the most carry over? So for example lunge like patterns for tennis where we lunge. Or a standing 'push' pattern for a forehand..that kind of thing..

    Not sure what you are getting at here.. So they can't be performed as often? So what.. Point is they are more useful for most athletes in every day life.. You at some point are going to have to pick something heavy off the floor. The deadlift trains this action.

    You very well might NEVER have to squat down with a heavy weight on your back (especially to 'full squat' depth). Can you think of the last time you did this?


    The old 'rippetoe' logic. Yes lets train with 'non-analogous' patterns. Is there any scientfic evidence this works better then analogous patterns. It's well know that the austrialian cycling team used the much hated leg press to train for their olympic domination..

    Sure leg press is not a pattern that most of use IRL - but its actually very similar to what a cyclist does. There analogous patterns work.

    If you look at some of the training baseball hitters do - alot of is rotary work with cables - because this analogous to what they do..

    Tennis players as you might know fancy lunges - like walking 45 degree etc - because this is analogous to what they do on the court fairly often..

    Some would call this functional training. Basketball players might do 'jump squats' or plyometrics to enhance their vertical. The list goes on and on..

    What's amusing about this is Rippetoe argues on the one hand that squats are somehow incredibly functional- and on the other hand they aren't really analgous to anything..

    Well you can't have it both ways - either they are functional because they mimic what we need to do in sports. But if we say that's why we should do squats - then we have to consider the possibliity that we should be doing EVEN MORE FUNCTIONAL exercises to better mimic sport actions..

    Or if instead we say we should be doing movements 'divorced' from our athletic movement patterns (thus not analgous) then we have to consider 'unathletic' actions like the leg press and such..as useful..

    Now of course no one really seriously considers the second possibility. Everyone just sticks with analogous patterns for the most part..

    Truth is Rippetoe just really really likes squats. That's fine. I get it. I think its a great exercise too (provided you can do it correctly.)

    It's just not something you need to do to be good at tennis -nor is it especially effective in increasing your tennis ability.

    The best way for rec players to get better at tennis - is to play more tennis.. Any exercise program that makes this easier and injury free is likely a winner..

    Pro athletes though do 'functional' training as I explained above. Squats aren't really a big part of that because it doesn't really mimic the actions you use on a tennis court.

    Roger Federer, Nadal et al - none of those guys need to squat heavy to dominate.

    For football players OTOH you can make a pretty strong case its a damn good idea.. Squatting IS an analogous pattern for an offensive lineman, IMHO.
     
  33. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    ^^
    I don't see how squats would heavily mimic the action of sprinters, but if sprinters want to win, they do heavy squats. That kind of kills that argument.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  34. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    ^^
    Sprinting is kinda squating with one leg after the other no? Pretty much exactly the same. Kinda kills ur argument.
     
  35. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    DBrickshaw - you're wasting your breath on these 2 guys lol. Good ownage though. You explained in detail what most people with less patience have been trying to say in this thread for months.

    Next thing you know Ramon is gonna say that tennis players "sprint" on the tennis court thus they SHOULD squat 85X their bodyweight. You can't win ...
     
  36. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    If that's your argument then any sport that involves running would be classified as similar to squatting. If you want to take it a step further, then any sport that involves standing on your feet would also have similarities. At what point do you draw the line?
     
  37. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    Ramon - I would simply challenge to find and produce evidence of one single professional male tennis player in the top 50 that includes HEAVY squats as an INTEGRAL part of their training. Let us know when you do. Good luck!
     
  38. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    Sprinters start low and are all about explosive acceleration. Its not like normal running or movements in other sports. Sprinters also have no need for endurance. Just run those 100 meters at full speed and then they're done.
     
  39. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Alright, lets have some fun shall we?

    You are incorrectly interpreting both mine and Rippetoe's statement here. Squats as a general exercise have a greater carryover to ANYTHING else when compared to other exercises. For example: Squats will help improve running, bench pressing, deadlifting, lunging, power development, overhead pressing, olympic lifts, core strength, etc better than any other exercise will. That is not to say another given lift might be better at improving ONE specific thing on that list, but it will not affect or carryover to the multitude of other things as Squats will.

    Further, Squats will improve your lunging ability(thereby according to your argument having more direct carryover to tennis) when done in conjunction with them, which again I question why you continue to ignore the possibility of DOING BOTH

    So no, it's not a stupid argument if you ACTUALLY think about it

    The fact that they cannot be performed as often is actually quite important, I dont see why you think it can be dismissed. It means you cannot easily develop an entire training regiment around only that exercise. Sure there are guys that have done so and pulled very frequently, but we are talking about professional powerlifters who were likely on drugs and just overall badasses. This none of us are. Further the range of motion about the knees and hips is a lot less than in full squats.

    Further, the squat greatly contributes to deadlifting ability as it does use many of the same muscles (some through a greater ROM), so again, it has CARRYOVER.

    Also, squatting is actually an evolutionary natural human movement. Watch children at play, they squat down with pretty much picture perfect form. This is something the majority of 1st world citizens lose due to the excessive overuse of sitting on chairs, benches etc.

    Is there any scientific evidence stating that it isnt? Is there any evidence showing that analogous movements are superior when done completely without general movements? Is there any evidence showing that when general "non-analogous" movements done with "analogous" movements in are inferior to doing solely one or the other?

    Would you look at that, another appeal to authority. Did the team not do any squats whatsoever? Are you assuming that squats do not contribute to leg press ability/strength as well?

    Why then is it that those that squat think leg presses are a joke? I'll tell you, because after squatting they try leg presses and can do a ****-ton of weight easily. So who's to say squatting wouldnt help the cycling team? If it would improve their leg press strength and you are attributing their success to that, it seems logically squats would also contribute

    I think the term is sports-specific training, not functional. I've seen functional defined as contributing to activities of daily living. Which squats, since they are a natural human motion, is technically functional. Simply because you individually no longer do it in day to day life does not mean it is not functional in this sense

    Again, you are equating functional with sports specific. If you differentiate them, then you can certainly have a functional exercise that is not analogous to a sports movement


    Never said you need to squat to be good at tennis. But I would love to see you logically argue that analogous movements increase your tennis ability when squats dont. Remember, logically. The simple fact that they are analogous movements does not mean you become better at tennis. As you said below

    Pretty sure I said the first part already. However you cannot immediately assume a program containing squats is going to make this easier or less injury prone than a program of analogous movements. We can discuss this further if you can somehow be logical

    Again, appeal to authority and definition confusion here. Simply because pro-athletes dont do it now does not mean it is not a good way to go. You claim that if squats would be useful, they'd be doing it but do you have any evidence that it was ever even tried?

    The only person I can name off hand that actually did heavy strength training was Agassi, but even that I only recall his impressive bench press. However it is interesting to note that he had a longer successful career than most pros.

    Point of clarity, that's not an appeal to authority argument, it's simply an interesting point


    Once again, fallacious appeal to authority. You are not Federer or Nadal. Nobody here is. No one here is even at that level. Just because the Pros do it doesnt mean its EXACTLY what you should do. You werent raised in the sport, coached early on by high level coaches, gone to an academy or anything like that. You cannot logically say that heavy squats at some point in their career would have helped or harmed their progress



    Congratulations, you have taken a page out of GuyClinch's book and make a fallacious appeal to authority argument.

    Here, I can do it too. I have met an NCAA Division 1 female tennis player who can squat her body weight.

    If a D1 female tennis player can squat her body weight, shouldnt the standard for men be at least that if not higher?

    In an effort to actually facilitate a real discussion further, refer to my next post
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  40. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Why dont we actually establish the arguments, premises, and points.

    If we arent operating under the same premise, then this discussion goes nowhere, its like trying to convince an atheist to be christian without proving to him God exists.

    Something like this maybe

    Premise: Weight training can benefit tennis either directly or indirectly. Either through performance enhancement or injury reduction

    To be proven: Squats are a good exercise for tennis

    Argument/points:

    Full Squats are a very general exercise with the most carryover other physical activity. The reason being that it uses a great number of muscles to perform. This includes the quads, hamstrings, hips, lower back, upper back, abdominal region and more. It is beaten out only be three other exercises (single exercises, not complexes of them) that I can think of. In order Snatch, Clean and Jerk, and Deadlift.

    The first two are highly complex movements and while certainly useful exercises even for a tennis player, the technical nature makes it difficult for them to be the sole or foundational exercise in the regiment of a tennis player.

    Deadlift, though it does use more muscles than the squat, cannot be performed as often and is otherwise extremely taxing on the body. Further, the range of motion through key areas is lacking when compared to squats. That is not to say deadlifts should be ignored, but they cannot be the sole or primary exercise in an intelligently designed program for one that is not specializing in that exercise (i.e. powerlifters)

    Additionally, this carryover applies to unilateral movements as well, thus when done in conjunction with unilateral movement, both squats and unilateral movements benefit from each other.

    Squats can reduce injury rates. By strengthening the muscles surrounding the knees (full squats engage the hamstrings, thus being more balanced), the knee joint is better solidified and protected by musculature. The lower back is strengthened as well due to isometric contraction throughout the lift. The lack of repetitive flexion or extension in the spine prevents shearing forces that might contribute heavily to herniated discs. The upper back is strengthened similarly though to a lesser extent.

    Further, the compression of weight and movement through better range of motion strengthens tendons and ligaments. Compression stress also forces the bones to adapt by increasing density. (example, Olympic Weightlifter Pat Mendes has femurs that have been tested at 9x the average bone density)

    Squats take less time to complete than a medley of unilateral movements. This inherent in comparing the nature of the exercises. Unilateral movements require addressing each limb individually logically requiring more time. In the busy life of a tennis player, shouldn't the quality of time spent in the gym be maximized?

    Possible Points against squats and Counterargument:

    Squats will cause injury: This point assumes improper technique and/or lack of intelligence in programming and execution is involved. This point has nothing to do with the nature of the exercise itself. Done right it does not cause injuries, and above points demonstrate that it can actually be preventative of injuries

    Full Squats require too much flexibility: This correctness of this point is based on individual state. If you lack the flexibility to correctly perform squats, that is something that should be addressed, as the increase in flexibility (in addition to enabling the performance of squats) will ALSO help prevent injuries in tennis (such as muscle pulls/tears). Just because you can get by in tennis without the flexibility required does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that it is unnecessary. I challenge anyone to argue otherwise.

    Unilateral Movements are easier to perform: Sounds like an excuse to not work hard

    Unilateral movements have more transfer to tennis: Requires further demonstration to be accepted. Further, most unilateral movements will not accomplish the same range of motion as squats. For example, lunges unless done with a deficit block will rarely go below parallel. Also, most unilateral exercises will not develop the hips and hamstrings as well due to a more upright posture. That is to say it becomes very much a "leg" movement versus the more total body nature of full squats. This same upright nature means the lower back and abdominals also have to work less, meaning less development. Put another way, the back is less protected due to lack of development of muscles surrounding it and the knee is also less protected if the hamstrings are not given their due attention


    There is also less compressive force in general, so the bones and connective tissue do not adapt as well as they would with heavier squats. Further, most unilateral exercises still make use of the other limb as counterbalance, so even when moving through the range of motion, the compression force from weight is actually going to be less than half on the limb being worked.

    There are some unilateral exercises that solve some of these issues, but few do all at once.


    By taking these points into account, Squats then are a useful exercise for tennis players.

    QED


    Note: That is NOT to say they should be the only exercise performed

    Please feel free to counter any of my points logically or provide your own in defense of other methods. Appeal to authority is not an accepted logical method unless you can provide analysis that does logically explain why it is a good point. Simply stating 'because X does it, it's the right way' is not sufficient without background information or analysis. Pointing at match results is not support of such arguments, as you can not necessarily attribute their ability to win to their training regiment as it can equally(or more likely) be attributed to their actual tennis ability
     
  41. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    ^Itagaki is just bitter because he failed the 2.5X bodyweight squat challenge that Ramon (and others) were able to do easily :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
  42. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    Itagaki it sounds like ur the one that doesnt want to do the hard work sayin that squats are faster and easier to fit into ur schedule.

    Just sayin man.

    Just because some ppl dont do squats doesnt mean theyre not workin hard or that theyre not training as well as you.
     
  43. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    HAHA YES!

    In all seriousness, I am simply tired of the lack of reasoning being put forth in this thread. It's become a simple "these people do that so its right" back and forth without any actual discussion. My second post was an effort to at least bring it back to a legitimate argument or debate


    You have failed to properly read my post

    There is no basis for what you've said in the first part in my post. I simply stated that squats are a more time-efficient quality exercise. I did not say I only do squats, I did not say I do not do unilateral work, I said nothing at all about my own training so your claim is quite unfounded. Everything I said was an attempt at argument from an objective and logical stance point, perhaps you should attempt to do the same in order to facilitate and actual discussion?

    As to the second part, at no point did I make the claim that not doing squats = not doing hard work. The only comment I made regarding hardwork is in response to the anti-squat argument that the exercise itself is too hard or too demanding on flexibility. My point being that such statements are cop-outs or excuses to avoid hardwork. Once again, I made no comparisons to my own training or claim that either is better or worse

    If you're interested in actually learning or providing information to the discussion, please do so. If you see a hole or fallacy in my argument, please point it out. Otherwise, continued posts like this contribute nothing productive
     
  44. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    I read ur post. Very biased towards squats. People have tried to just have discussions but anyone who mentioned anything that wasnt squatting got attacked. All of a sudden u wanna be constructive. Better late than never i suppose.

    The simplest training concept is that you get results where you put in the work. In tennis, you dont need to move twice ur weight so for tennis dont train ur muscles to do that.

    My argument is that ur better off forgetting the squats and doing plyos, running, agility, intervals, medicine ball exercises, conditioning, etc.

    However, the best exercise is the one you do. So if all you can do is squats id say do high reps and dont worry about ur max. Once u start worrying about a max and training ur squats, the focus is away from benefitting tennis.

    P.S. props to guyclinch for hanging in there for so long haha
     
  45. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    The whole point of the post was for it to be a defense of squats, of course its biased. Unless you think the logic or points used is incorrect, I dont see what the problem with it is

    Im guessing you havent actually read all my posts in this thread if you think I just now am trying to be constructive.

    Also that's not an argument, its a statement. Please provide more information though (reasons why, logic behind it etc)

    Also I was never in the "squat 2.5xbw for tennis" club, i was only in the "squats are good" team.
     
  46. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    This is just completely wrong. Sprinting is running really fast. It is highly relevant to playing tennis, though only a limited part of the tennis movement, which also depends on the ability to change direction quickly, move sideways, stop, etc.

    For instance, Monfils who is known for his court movement is also an excellent sprinter. Not at all surprising.
     
  47. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    My argument was that because you dont move that much weight on the court, dont train ur muscles to move that much.

    And wildvolley, monfils? Really? First of all he gets beat. A lot. Second of all the discussion was talking about olympic sprinters not sprinting in general. And lastly you didnt say anything about how he trains so ur just completely wrong
     
  48. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I'm not wrong at all. Monfils is tactically incompetent, but that doesn't mean he isn't both the best mover in professional tennis and the best sprinter in professional tennis. The two are going to be highly correlated. If you are an excellent sprinter, odds are you will move very quickly around a tennis court. It doesn't mean that you will be an excellent tennis player, as tennis involves much more than just footwork, regardless of what others will tell you.

    I'm not getting involved in how much heavy squatting a serious tennis player should do. Obviously the training demands of a serious tennis player are different than a serious sprinter (the sprinter doesn't have to put a lot of time in on court). However, many professional tennis players are now doing sprint training. Andy Murray for instance has been doing more sprint training since Jez Green has been working with him.
     
  49. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I'm confused.

    Are we saying Monfils (the number 13th ranked player in the world) is not a "good" tennis player?

    This is a tough crowd.
     
  50. DBrickshaw

    DBrickshaw New User

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    Lol he's good but its not like he dominates and whatever he does everyone should emulate. That was my point. Why look at him instead of anyone else? Why is monfils special?
     

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