Three Person Rule

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by anubis, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    3,013
    Can someone explain this to me please? I know it has something to do with you can't have more than three people on your team that have played on previous teams with you, but I don't know the whole story.
     
    #1
  2. schmke

    schmke Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,311
    See http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/2014_USTA_League_Regulations_Final_8_23_13.pdf

    Specifically, 2.06A says that a total of three players who were on the final roster of any team or combination of teams that advanced to or qualified for any National championship may play on the same team the following year.

    The key change from the past is the "combination" addition. Thus, if a 4.0 mens team and 8.0 mixed team both go to Nationals from the same area, no more than three of the players from any of the players from the teams can be on the same roster the following season.
     
    #2
  3. damazing

    damazing Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    251
    Here's the rule for Mid-Atlantic:

    11d. Player limitation for leagues which advance to Sectional Championships only three players may be members together on another team in the same Division, within an age group, during the same season. It is the same season if there is an overlap in the local league scheduled match dates. The infraction occurs at registration.

    Where violations of this rule occur, penalties are established as (a) immediate disqualification from the second (or any subsequent) team of all players who are members together on another team, except for the first three such players, the order of registration as recorded in TennisLink being the determinative factor, unless a player has not played a match for either team, then the player may select which team to be removed from; and (b) forfeiture of all matches played by the disqualified players on behalf of the second (or any subsequent) team. The disqualified players may continue to participate on their other team(s) without penalty, and to register for additional teams consistent with Rule #11 and any District/Area or local registration deadlines.
     
    #3
  4. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,736
    This confounds me, it seems the whole idea of league tennis is to keep it local, not have to travel long distances to play age group tournaments and hang out with your "buddies" for some brewskies, harkening back to the good 'ol days of high school and college. Then you and your pals have a measure of success and the good ol' boys and gals at USTA HQ, BREAK-UP YOUR POSSEE!--what's up with that!

    This makes no sense to me what-so-ever. Or as in another thread, you get to sectionals or nationals, and the genius in charge flies in mercenaries--FOR A T-SHIRT!--while the stalwarts that got you there get to wave pom-poms from the other side of the fence.

    Tennis used to be an easy game to learn once you got by that "Why is it 40 instead of 45?" thing. Why can't the Harvard lawyers just stick to destroying the Republic, do they have to destroy tennis too!
     
    #4
  5. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,639
    Location:
    Newtown, PA
    So, this is different than the nationals rule since it applies to teams in the same season (the nationals rule applies to players from nationals team from the previous season...). I guess this is meant to prevent a team that, for example, won a winter league from playing together and winning a spring season?
     
    #5
  6. HRB

    HRB Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,485
    LOL...I agree...what is the purpose...to break up potential "dynasties"? If you dominate, aren't you going to get moved up anyways? Also why the socialism...can't you dominate and give the other teams something to strive for, isn't USTA free market competition...or rigged to not hurt anyones ego's? Weird.
     
    #6
  7. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,058
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Agreed, but the problem is that some people place so much importance on nationals that they are willing to do pretty much anything to build a team that gets them there. Sad but true. Then the other silly people who care about nationals get all demoralized and teary. Then USTA comes up with more silly rules to try prevent the same people from getting to nationals all the time. And then people complain about the silly USTA rule. And here we are...
     
    #7
  8. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    The three-person rule has been a dream for us non-dynasty captains.

    We can now pick up players who are three-personed off of their desired dynasty team. If they want to play at all, they have to play with us mere mortals.

    I have enjoyed my these teammates very much, and our leagues are more competitive now than they were last year.
     
    #8
  9. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    3,013
    Thanks everyone, appreciate the explanation. I was "three personed" off of a team, so as Cindy says, I have to find a new team to play on :(

    #firstworldproblems
     
    #9
  10. schmke

    schmke Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,311
    So there are pros and cons to this new rule.

    We've heard many of the cons from the vocal folks who this has affected. These include:

    - If the ratings system works, the players are at the right level so they shouldn't be restricted from playing together.

    - The rule can limit players' ability to even play as some areas that have advanced to Nationals in several divisions would be forced to disperse to many different teams and there simply may not be enough teams or the logistics (clubs, distance, etc.) make it unreasonable.

    - The rule allows for a move-up option, but what if the combination of players is in a different division so they aren't technically moving up?

    Some of of the pros include:

    - It gives "non-mercenary" players a better shot at advancing farther in playoffs, even if it isn't all the way to Nationals, e.g. these stacked teams may preclude other teams from even making local or District playoffs year after year, so if they are broken up one year, some others can at least experience early rounds of playoffs.

    - It provides a way to preclude those that use the "Fall league" loopholes to manipulate their ratings back down so they aren't bumped up from forming stacked teams. This is a case where the ratings system can't "work" (or at least can be manipulated) as currently structured so the USTA adds a rule rather than trying to fix the system.

    - As Cindy just mentioned, it disperses the "star" players across the league resulting in more competitive play in general. If this is the whole goal of the NTRP system, competitive play, this rule serves to help meet that goal.


    The purist in me says let the system work and if players are rated at X, let them play together. The system should be bumping players up appropriately and if they want to play together at the next higher level, go for it. Alas, the system can be manipulated and I'd argue they should fix it, by either not including late season leagues where matches results can be used to manipulate ratings down, or by having checks in the algorithm to throw out suspicious results. Given that they aren't doing this to fix the system, some sort of rule seems to have merit, but I think the current rule is probably too restrictive.
     
    #10
  11. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,778
    Here is the rub. The system can be manipulated. And it is being manipulated by a small percentage of Captains and players. So rather than have the DNTRP algorithm have an invisible threshold to throw out "suspicious" or "tanked" matches, the USTA comes up with the move up/spilt up rule.

    Why not do both things to help tweak the DNTRP system?

    1) Have a system in place that makes "tanking" more difficult by having an invisible threshold like the USTA uses for strikes. Cross that threshold and the match is tossed out. And make this unlimited. Tank six matches 0&0 and they all are thrown out. Yep, guys will start tanking 4&4, 4&3, and 3&2, but when they do, their team will have a hard time winning lines unless they rotate the dedicated "tankers" for given matches.

    2) And have all Sections exclude all Fall matches for a player's DNTRP rating

    If the USTA's DNTRP system is so accurate, why do some Sections use Fall matches and others don't? The USTA uses the Nationals/Sectionals/ Districts or State to adjust everyone's rating, but they don't with the Fall Leagues. So if the USTA is so adamant that everyone must be crosschecked vs the players from Nationals, their argument to include Fall matches falls flat. The only thing allowing Fall matches to do in the DNTRP is this: It opens the window to manipulate one's rating. Close the window for this.

    If the USTA where to make these two changes, I suspect the tanking would still continue, but the worst tanked matches would be thrown out.

    The USTA addresses the symptom and not the problem. Typical.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    #11
  12. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,783
    The 'regular' 3 person rule + the 'nationals' 3 person rule = pain in the arse for captains

    And some people just want to play with the people they know, like, and are friends with.

    USTA needs to butt out. You want to win? THEN WIN.
     
    #12
  13. damazing

    damazing Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    251
    The rule in the Mid-Atlantic makes sense because the different counties are so close together and you could have one group of people field teams in multiple counties to win them all.

    It is not uncommon for people in central Maryland to play in three different counties for the same league types, i.e. Adult 18+, Adult 40+ etc...

    Personally, I could conceivably play in 6 different counties and one different state without driving more than 45 min-1 hour for the matches.

    I've still seen the top guys get recruited for multiple counties and then at districts have to pick one of their many teams to play for, since all made it to districts.
     
    #13
  14. schmke

    schmke Professional

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,311
    Playing in 3 different counties is actually a bit of an understatement. I show 42 players Mid-Atlantic section having been rostered on teams in 5 or more areas and one of those was on teams in 8 different areas. Which 8?

    Prince Georges County
    Anne Arundel County
    Frederick County
    Howard County
    Montgomery County
    Forty West
    Northern Virginia
    Washington D.C.

    And before you say they are an outlier, there were 3 that played in 7 areas and 7 that played in 6 areas.
     
    #14
  15. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,639
    Location:
    Newtown, PA
    Yeah, Eastern used to be like the wild, wild west with roster rules, so one year, a bunch of us put a team in the Middlesex County league that was basically a Middle States All-Star team. We won that league easily. The other two areas of Eastern NJ (Passaic-Morris and Sussex or something like that) were won by the exact same team with identical 24 man rosters in each league. So, Eastern NJ playoffs came down to an all-star team of marauders from a different section and a team that entered and won two leagues and got two shots at the title. Suffice it to say they changed the rules to prevent both situations the next year.
     
    #15
  16. NoChance

    NoChance New User

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Location:
    Northeast
    All of this makes me so happy that I live where there are not enough players for USTA leagues. I just call my friends, pick up matches and hitting sessions, and just play tennis. I can get enough tennis that way, without drama nor hassles. It's still fun. That's why I started playing, four decades ago.
     
    #16
  17. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    3,013
    You sound a lot like me, we've probably played together at some point!
     
    #17
  18. damazing

    damazing Rookie

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    251
    For some reason I thought you played more in NOVA. The one county that usually gets players from NOVA in Maryland is Montgomery and I haven't played there yet. Too many late night matches up county and the traffic to get there would kill me.
     
    #18
  19. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,783
    But my point stands. If you don't like the same people winning, go beat them. Right? And they can't go to sectionals representing each district, they have to choose.

    But with the new age groups creating more teams, and the general success of Mid-Atlantic, those three spots on teams go really fast. So people are being punished for being successful?

    In this system, you have created a situation where, in even years, Nationals will be the 'other people', and in odd years, it will be the people who are actually the best players. Why don't we just hand out trophies with registration then? And I say this knowing that I'm in the 'other' category!

    Noted. And yes, in this area, that is kind of a unique situation. Does the new Nationals rule solve this? Not really. The best players will still have spots on teams in 8 different counties. Its the 'other' players who won't get a chance to play, because those three spots are filled.

    That has always been the way around here. They don't restrict us playing around the beltway (probably because, again, it brings them money). But if they really wanted to keep people from taking advantage of this, then there would be a restriction on how many different areas you can play in.

    I do four....NOVA, MOCO (in MD), DC, and Alexandria. Though Alexandria is only for mixed, there aren't adult leagues there.
     
    #19
  20. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,688
    Location:
    Central Florida
    USTA is just following DC's lead.
     
    #20

Share This Page